Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
While I agree with the negative stance on the constant pausing, there isn't really a way around it. Even a real-timed run will have plenty of pausing. Quite a bit less, of course, but it will still detract from the viewing experience.
It could be just me, but I'd rather let the TASer take full advantage of this. Mostly because any real-timed run will also more than likely end up slower than MegaDestructor9's 19:18 run (which uses zips).
If it belongs in a different category, but still accepted, that would be fine with me too.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
I strongly believe this game should be timed with the in-game timer. This allows the concrete zip tactic to be utilized to its fullest extent. If you don't believe me, watch this teaser video I made. Entirely unoptimized (mostly threw it together without much planning), but still showcases the zip quite nicely.
Link to video
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
Yeah, I expected as much. But I do have some ideas in mind that will keep the entertainment up, which I'll reveal with the next WIP. And I'm going to keep the path I take as straight forward as possible. I want to keep the fact that I'm limiting myself as hidden as possible from the audience.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
Alright, I went back and took out some of the weapon refills. This saved 22 frames, and brings final time for Wily stage 1 down to 2:46.78. Now to work on Wily 2.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
The screenshot I posted is the absolute farthest you can get before being crushed. I know this for a fact, because entering that screen 1 frame earlier will cause the first pillar to come down. I've actually gotten to this screen 39 frames faster, which would easily bypass the entire the crusher. But since the first pillar comes down, I then had to wait for both pillars to go down and up to continue.
The 187 frame wait I mentioned, is the the frame I can leave Suzak and Fenix, and make it through the entire length of crushing pillars without stopping.
@Apothos
It might, but as you said, dying takes alot longer than 187 frames. Probably more than 1000 frames. Too many to make it worthwhile.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
So I found a way to spend the required frames, and there's some silver lining. Since I need to waste 187 frames, this means I can play the beginning of the level sub-optimally. Meaning, using less weapon energy.
For example, The fastest way through Suzak and Fenix (the fire birds) uses 3 Commando Bombs, and 4 Rebound Strikers. An alternate strategy I found, is 72 frames slower, and uses only 2 Commando Bombs and the Buster. Since I don't need any Rebound Strikers, I can eliminate the weapon refill pellet I grab for it in Wily 1.
There are a few other areas I can use the buster as well to waste time, which means I no longer have to refill the Wheel Cutter, Rebound Striker, nor the Solar Blaze. And the Commando Bomb needs only 1 small pellet.
Time to redo Wily 1 :|
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
Thanks for all the support, guys.
kuja killer wrote:
i was also doing a Wily 2 TAS a few weeks ago, but i gave up and quit after the fight with the 2 birds, i was well over 1 full second past what rockmanda's run was, JUST literally after the birds fight, but it was impossible to get past one of those stupid crushing pillar things.
It's not random, it's time based,
you might figure a way to get through it maybe, without being forced to stop and wait once you get to wily 2 on this Full Run.
Wow, you definitely weren't kidding. I was also way ahead of Rockmanda after the refight with Suzak and Fenix, but I saw all of that savings eaten up when I had to wait for the crusher/pillar.
Here's the spot:
There's also a few other crushers that impede progress later in the level.
After alot of testing, I'm pretty sure I have their mechanics down.
-They are on 400 frame intervals. Every 400 frames they come down.
-They will only come down if they are in the visible screen. For instance, if it's supposed to come down on frame #400, and it comes into the screen at frame #0-399, it will come down on frame #400. However, if it shows up at frame #400-799, then it won't come down until frame #800 (the next 400 frame interval).
-This interval is unaffected by the RNG. This means killing enemies and picking up weapon refill pellets does not change it.
So, the second point means if you make sure you don't let it appear in the screen until the frame it's supposed to come down, then it will skip its current interval, and not come down for another 400 frames.
Unfortunately, the third point is what saddens me the most. In my optimized run, I need to wait 187 frames before exiting Suzak and Fenix to skip the crusher's interval. I can spread these 187 frames over the entire beginning of the level, and I was hoping that means I could essentially grab "free" weapon energy refills. But since it's not affected by RNG, any time I use grabbing a refill does not count towards this time. If I spend 50 frames refilling weapon energy, then the crusher's 400 frame interval will be moved 50 frames later. I have to find a way to actually waste 187 frames without detracting from the viewing experience (sitting for 3 seconds in one spot will look incredibly bad).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
-Close and open a fresh instance of Dolphin (important, or else it will desync)
-Check Dump Audio and Dump Video in the options.
-Go to Emulation->Play recording. Choose your .dtm
-Audio will automatically overwrite and dump the audio to user//dump//audio.
-Video will ask to overwrite (if applicable), then ask how you want it compressed. In my experience, best way to dump is with Microsoft Video 1. The files are relatively small, and you can adjust the slider for increased performance at the cost of a downgraded resolution. The file will be dumped to user//dump//video.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
When you open Dolphin, don't double click the game to start playing. Instead go to Emulation -> Start Recording. This will load up the game and two counts will be added to the footer: VI, which is the current frame, and Frame, which is the total number of polled inputs.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
Oh I thought it was a newer development. I still have r7060 on my computer and it doesn't have that option. At least not in the location it currently is.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
r7511 should be fine. I don't think r7323 had configurable hotkeys.
Frame advance is a toggle switch. Turn it on, and the emulation pauses and will only advance 1 frame every time you push the pause button. Turn it off, and the emulation will still be paused. Simply push the pause button again to resume normal play.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
To dump sound, you have to go into the audio options and check the "Dump Audio" box. Then use a separate program to combine it with the dumped frames.
And frame advance works for me exactly how MUGG described it.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
After almost 2 weeks, I finally finished Wily Stage 1. At 10029 frames, I finish this level in 2:47.15. This includes the ten weapon refill pellets I picked up, which is a big testament to the optimization present in this run. The same route run in the time trial, would skip the weapon refills, and finish in 2:45.65.
The hardest part about this level, was the fact that I everything thing I do could have potential consequences in the later levels. I had to study the other 4 Wily stages and figure out exactly how much of each weapon I need, and pick up only those amounts of refills. Any extra energy I pick up will result in wasted frames added on to the final time.
I also figure out how to encode in HD.
Link to video
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
Quality speed runners would have their runs verified in real time, and seeing the pause menu continuously pop up would be grounds for disqualification. The leaderboards for the time trials are actually pretty trivial at best. While it still hard as hell to make it to the top, it doesn't really show Mega Man 10 playing ability. The fastest real-time single segment so far is 23:31 (in-game timer), which I respect alot more than any of the leaderboard times.
And I wasn't suggesting speed running equals TAS. I was simply pointing out that the inherent slow down of pause abuse brings the category closer to a TAS than a true speedrun.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
In Mega Man 10 on the console, pause abuse can be performed by simply using the main pause menu instead of the weapon select screen. The pause instantly stops the timer, and the screen fades away into the pause screen. When you continue, the screen fades back in before resuming. This means you're given snapshots of the game play in between your pauses. With practice, you can re-pause the game on the very next FRAME of gameplay. The replay will exclude these pauses, and near TAS times can be achieved.
I have to admit, I abused this quite a bit to take some leaderboard spots. I would definitely rather it not be abusable (timer continues in pause menu), but frankly, I'm surprised this tactic would get negative feedback from a TASing community. The way I see it, I'm simply using every option available to me, within the programmed confines of the game, to achieve the best possible time with the parameters the game designers chose. Granted, as blahmoomoo posted, my 1:41.23 Nitro Man time probably took 5-10 minutes to actually achieve, but the replay cuts out all the fluff and displays a rather attractive finished product. All the top 10 (and more) times for every level abuse pausing, so it's kind of a must to stay competitive. I do feel its kind of cheap, which is why I switched to full blown TASing this game instead of walking the slim line of pause abuse.
Hopefully MM11 fixes this issue for good but I LOVE the fact that they added replays (MM9 had no replay feature, which only made you speculate and wonder at the top times).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
The full game timer also stops when you pick up health/weapon refills. Basically, anytime you don't have direct control over Mega Man, it stops.
Mega Man 9 works the exact same way (for both the time trials and full game).
The only thing that is different, is Mega Man 10 time trials. I don't know why they chose to change it, but I actually like it that way, since it penalizes weapon pick-ups.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
Well, I just found out I can't use the Triple Blade glitch on the final form of Wily. Apparently the ONLY weapons that can hurt him are the Buster and Chill Spike. Disappointing, since now there's no way that using the W-tank will save enough real time to make up for the time it eats up in the menus. The in-game timer stops while in the menus, but I feel this game should aim for real time. Besides, using the W-tank would only shave a few seconds at most off the game timer (and add a few to the real time).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
The recent changes fixed an issue with exporting recordings, as well as rerecord counts. While this is a great fix, the issue MUGG and DDRKhat a talking about is still present.
A work-around I've been using, is to load this save state in another instance of Dolphin. If the state is locked (won't accept input), I save another state in the original instance a frame later, and try to load it again in the new instance. A small hassle, but it avoids the large complications of corrupted save states.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
Haha, figured as much. Glad you noticed and corrected this problem so fast. Since I still have 4 stages left, I'll just take the rerecord count and multiply it by three. Should give a good enough approximation. And I'll let you know how the syncing issue is now.
::EDIT::
WOW! Not only did it "unlock" my file and allow rerecording again, it actually correctly synced with the input that I put into that file (which the old revision did not). Also noticed you fixed the crash on stop bug. Fantastic work!
In my experiences, the only bug that is left, is an unrelated issue where saving a state sometimes results in an input locked state. Meaning, upon loading the state, the Dolphin will ignore all input and continually press the inputs that were being pushed when the state was saved. For example, if you save a state while jumping right, loading that still will have have jump and right eternally pushed and it wont do anything else. Happens more often than I'd like, but not all the time.
@admin
Could you move the past 20 posts into this thread since the information is more relevant to Dolphin as a whole than Mega Man 9. Thanks.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
Since I have no idea what that means, any chance you can tell me the number of rerecords in my file? I know its probably wrong since I've been using r7302, but I'm curious.
www.megaupload.com/?d=5NJHCME8
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
You'd be my hero. Although this would mean I'd finally have to move up to the latest revision, it will be a welcome change. I'll keep an eye on the SVN changes.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(580)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
Yeah, steps 5 and 13 are the same and they are both optional. It's mostly just for insurance against a bad save state.
Sad it didn't work. In all honesty, we shouldn't have to go back this far to rerecord. And although it worked for me, I only made a little progress before it locked again later on. I have another idea I'm going to try and you should try it to.
When you load the state in another instance, instead of closing it and exporting it from the original instance, try exporting from the new instance. Maybe repeat the process one more time before recording. My thought process is I'm just trying to eliminate any possibility of the old inputs to make their way into new file. I'll let you know if this works. I know this all seems a little farfetched, but I can't really think of any logical reason for the this problem to occur, so I'm willing to try anything.
Both are in the same location. But I'm sure no one will be able to guess where it is. >:D
There's also a few other crushers that impede progress later in the level.
After alot of testing, I'm pretty sure I have their mechanics down.
-They are on 400 frame intervals. Every 400 frames they come down.
-They will only come down if they are in the visible screen. For instance, if it's supposed to come down on frame #400, and it comes into the screen at frame #0-399, it will come down on frame #400. However, if it shows up at frame #400-799, then it won't come down until frame #800 (the next 400 frame interval).
-This interval is unaffected by the RNG. This means killing enemies and picking up weapon refill pellets does not change it.
So, the second point means if you make sure you don't let it appear in the screen until the frame it's supposed to come down, then it will skip its current interval, and not come down for another 400 frames.
Unfortunately, the third point is what saddens me the most. In my optimized run, I need to wait 187 frames before exiting Suzak and Fenix to skip the crusher's interval. I can spread these 187 frames over the entire beginning of the level, and I was hoping that means I could essentially grab "free" weapon energy refills. But since it's not affected by RNG, any time I use grabbing a refill does not count towards this time. If I spend 50 frames refilling weapon energy, then the crusher's 400 frame interval will be moved 50 frames later. I have to find a way to actually waste 187 frames without detracting from the viewing experience (sitting for 3 seconds in one spot will look incredibly bad).