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Exactly. In fact, they don't even need to be small pellets. If you use a single pixel of energy and then pick up any weapon refill pellet (large or small), the single frame freeze will be almost indiscernable when watched in full-speed.
In practice, however, I've found that most of the weapons that need to be refilled consume more than 1 pixel per use. While the trick can still be used, it will usually be noticeable.
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I finished the route for Wily 1, but after some new insight into weapon refills, I'm now in the process going back through to strategically force and pick up weapon refill pellets. Ignore what I posted earler, here is my current understanding of weapon refill mechanics.
-Small pellets refill up to 2 pixels.
-Large pellets refill up to 8 pixels.
-The game freezes for 4 frames for every pixel of energy filled.
--This freeze stops all motion, explosions, projectiles, and the in-game timer.
-The RNG based timer continues through the freeze (as well as TASvideos timing)
-When the game resumes, Mega Man retains his velocity before the freeze.
Now it gets tricky. There's a special scenario that allows for time to be saved off the finish time.
-If the weapon refill pellet fills the top pixel, the freeze only lasts 1 frame during the time it fills that pixel.
This is true whether its the first pixel filled or the 8th. For example, if I've used 8 pixels of enery, and I pick up a large weapon refill pellet, the freeze will last 4 frames for each of the first 7 pixels, and then 1 frame for the last pixel. 4x7+1= 29 frame freeze.
Picking up the same large weapon refill pellet when it doesn't max out the bar, will result in the full 32 frame freeze.
So, in essence, everytime I top out a weapon's energy, I save 3 frames over refilling later when its low or empty. Granted, this is only true if I need to use the entire weapon energy bar by the time the game ends. But there are several weapons that won't have enough energy to last me through all 5 levels, so refilling them in this manner will be very beneficial.
3 frames may not seem like much, but I've been able to do this trick several times so far in the first level alone. So by the time the game ends, it will add up to a considerable chunk of optimization.
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So, a little update: I was able to fix it. But I used a combination of several things so I don't know exactly what fixed the problem. You might have some luck if you try all or at least some of what I did.
1. Watch the replay.
2. Some time before the desync (I did 6000 frames since 5000 didn't work), pause the emulation and turn frame advance on.
3. Save a state
4. Advance 1 frame to initiate the state save.
5. Open another instance of Dolphin and load this save state. This is to ensure its not an "input locked" save state and you can still enter new input. If it's locked (Mega Man keeps running right, etc), repeat steps 3 and 4 in the original instance of Dolphin. Once you have a save state you can control, close the new instance of Dolphin.
6. Export the recording.
7. Delete, or at least move the old recordings out of the folder.
8. Close and re-open Dolphin
9. Watch the new replay.
10. Slightly before the end of the movie (I use the previous screen transition), pause the emulation and turn on frame advance
11. Save a state.
12. Advance one frame to initiate the state save.
13. Same as step 5.
14. Load this state and continue recording as usual.
This should unlock the recording. You shouldn't have to do everything I've listed, but this is exactly what I did and it worked. Under normal circumstances, steps 1-8 can be discarded and it should rerecord just fine.
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What I find weird, is that right after you mention the input file problem, I run into the same thing and can't fix it anymore. :( I'm at a standstill too until someone comes up with a fix. It really doesn't make any sense why the old inputs would carry over to the new input file.
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Ah, now I see what you mean by the hotkey issue. Glad you found the fix, because I did the same thing. I don't think the keyboard can register more than 2 or 3 keypresses at the same time into the emulator. I configured my xbox controller.
Also, I'd like to recommend a program called xpadder. It's only 10 bucks, and has been an enormous help in my emulation process. Basically, it allows you to program keyboard functions (F1, Shift F1, F10) etc, into the controller. There may be some free programs that let you do this, but xpadder has got to be the best tool for the job because of its layout and features. Since the MM9 and 10 only use about half of the buttons available, I put the pause button and several save/load state hotkeys on the controller. You can imagine how this speeds things up.
Hmm, and you're right about the 5000 frames not working. I thought it did because it showed a different input, but when I tried to record further, it reverted back to the old inputs. I'll keep trying. I know there's a fix because I've done it before. I'll also post a thread on the Dolphin support forums.
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kuja killer wrote:
I shoot just ONLY the football sprite that thing tosses out, the RNG changed.
This time it gave me ring man instead of napalm, but it still ended with flame.
have to start over.
Instead i jumped over the football, and jump over the enemy as seen in my video, and then it gave me ring - flame - napalm ..allowing me to get a full jump into the pit.
the whole process took about 5 hours.
After my own testing, I think I know what caused this. You shot only the football sprite, but that's not what changed the RNG. NOT killing the Red Cargou Q (basket enemy) is what changed the RNG. The second boss to appear is also affected by the RNG, and isn't determined until you kill the first one. I know this because I kill the same enemies you do in the first screen to bring out Electric Man. However, I managed to kill him 14 frames faster, and this made Wood Man appear next instead of Gemini Man. Despite the different order, I was still able to make it to the door in time to not lose any frames.
For the second trio, it used to be the same as yours, but after going back and picking up a few weapon pellets (for reasons explained above), I now start with Flame Man. I'll still be able to get through the three of them in the same time, though. This also means that weapon pellets actually do affect the RNG. Not directly, but the frozen time spent picking them up doesn't stop the internal timer which RNG is based off of.
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Yea, I understand the concept, but I don't know how to open and edit the file. I'm not overly concerned with it at the moment, however. If I feel the need, I look into this.
And as for my usage of the word "pixel", I know it clashes with our definition of the word for a unit of a picture, but I never really had a reason to name it anything, and then started calling it pixel ever since Capcom released Mega Man 9 with the following challenges:
Survivor: Defeat one boss with only one pixel of energy left.Last Man Standing: Defeat all bosses with only one pixel of energy left.Mega Diet:Clear the game without picking up more than 8 energy pellets.
Since its worded by Capcom, I registered that as the official name. Although, pellets are the official name for the health refills (possible the weapon refills, too), so I guess I should start calling them that.
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I don't think a hex edit will work, because without using the W-tank, the strategy is completely different. I would be using more of the weakness weapons (and probably be running out of energy and having to switch to buster) instead of alternating between weakness weapon and Blade.
That's just with my knowledge of what hex editing does. I have never tried to hex edit. If I find an improvement, I've been doing it the old-fashioned way and starting from an earlier point to rerecord.
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I'll keep that in mind, but one nice thing about the Jet is I can jump on him, jump off and change weapons, and only have consumed a fraction of a pixel of energy.
Kind of thinking (posting?) out loud, but here are some more notes on weapon refills.
I wasn't expecting to force weapon refills until the later levels when I'm running low, but I found I actually CAN exploit the 1/1 refill trick. But only the Blade Shot can benefit from this, because of the fact that I need to have Blade Shot full when I start Wily 4. The best way to accomplish this, is to keep it topped off at all times. I didn't think this was necessary, but here's the logic:
I use 3 pixels of Blade Shot energy during the first trio of bosses in Wily 1. After the fight I force a small refill, which replenishes 2 pixels for the price of an 8 frame freeze. Then, I force another small refill, and this time I receive the final pixel of energy to max out the energy bar, and pay only a single frame freeze! I save 3 frames every time I'm able to pull this off, but I don't know how often I'll have the opportunity to this. There are a lot of variables that would negate the benefit (needs at least 2 enemies after using an odd number of Blade shots before needing to fire another blade shot).
Also, I was thinking about the W-tank I'm going to use to refill Blade Shot in Wily 4, and I had a half revelation/half duh moment. I was initially expecting to use it after I ran out of Blade energy, but I actually have to find out exactly how much energy I need to finish off the three Wily forms, and use the W-tank when I have used exactly that amount. This will top off the Blade Shot energy bar, giving me enough energy to last the rest of the game, and will keep the time spent waiting for the W-tank to its absolute minimum. If I used it when the energy is empty, the extra energy it fills will be unnecessary wasted frames (4 for every pixel).
I wasn't expecting the refills to be so complicated!
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There is acceleration, but refills freeze the gameplay and the in-game timer completely, so everything but the energy bar is unaffected (including the RNG).
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Did some testing on weapon refills.
1 pixel = 4 frames
Doesn't matter if its a big or small refill, but small refills replenish 2 pixels and large ones replenish 8, so small refills look less distracting.
However, the 1/4 ratio only works if the refill won't "top off" the energy bar. If there's only 1 pixel consumed, then grabbing a refill replenishes the pixel and only freezes Mega Man for ONE frame (so my theory was correct). This is obviously the most efficient way to refill weapon energy, but I probably wont be able to use it at all. Only the wheel cutter, triple blade, and chill spike consume one pixel when used. The first two I use more than once during the first Wily stage fight, and I have enough chill spikes to last through all 5 Wily stages. I'm keeping jet usage to a minimum for the moment, but becuase the weapon bar for rush jet is monitored on a subpixel level, the 1/1 refill ratio doesn't work.
tl;dr:
I'm going to force small weapon refills as needed in the later Wily levels.
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I've had this exact same problem several times so far. The way I've been fixing it is to play back the input file, save a state way before the affected part, and continue recording from there. I know you mentioned you tried this, but when I say way back, I mean a lot further than usual. I'm not quite sure what's causing it, but I've always been able to somehow overcome it.
As a matter of fact, I'm actually having this problem right now. I'll do what I usually do and see if I can pinpoint exactly what fixes the problem.
Not sure about the other problem you mentioned. I'm using r7302 so I can't configure hotkeys.
~~~
Well, you're not gonna like my answer, but I ended up having to go back about 5000 frames before I was able to continue recording. I still have no clue as to what causes the problem. For some reason, the old inputs (the ones we are replaying) are being copied into the new export. Only fix for now is to get trying earlier and earlier save points until the problem dissapears.
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Thanks scrimpeh.
I have over 100 screws, but I wont be going to the shop. I have a spare W-tank that I picked up in Chill Man's stage, and I'm only going to use it on the Triple Blade after the 8 robot master refights, since there's no oppurtunity to manipulate refill drops before the first two forms of Wily. Everything else I'll force small refills for. The tanks are not instant. The slowly fill up the energy bar, plus it takes extra time to enter/exit and scroll through the menu.
I know I can't be as frugal, but I'll do my best to keep the action up.
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Thanks AngerFist. But I don't realistically expect it to be submission ready until June.
::Edit::
Deleted.
Thought I found an improvement but it turns out I miscalculated the wait for rush. Published run is still optomized.
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Yeah, your Wily 1 vid will definately help for most of the level but I will have to alter it a bit to account for the fact that I have to plan weapon usage through all 5 stages. For instance, using rush coil on the dissapearing blocks saves a single frame over a perfect jump, but if I have to refill the coil, I'll lose several frames for grabbing a refill.
I know I'm going to have to force some weapon refills, at least. I haven't tested it all out yet, but I know weapon refills will be faster than using a W-tank. From what I've seen while playing the game in real-time, it seems the most efficient weapon refills (time/refill ratio) are the small ones. In fact, if there's only 1 (maybe 2) pixels of weapon energy used, it seems as though Mega Man makes no visible stop when he grabs the refill. Of course, once I break it down with tools, I'll find the true most efficient method of refilling weapons, and plan accordingly.
I'm also prepared to use a W-tank after the refight with the 8 robot masters in Wily 4. This will allow me to use the invincibily glitch on all 3 Wily forms as well.
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Here's the final Robot Master, Solar Man! I manually timed this level and its only 1:34.9 which is a huge improvement over the old record.
Had the route finalized last week but ran into a lot of trouble getting it to sync with the Dolphin. Glad I'm done, though. Now to tackle the Wily stages!
Link to video
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I remember watching Rockmanda's run of Wily 2 long ago when it was still generally believed to be done in real time. He comes to a complete stop at random locations for seemingly no reason. Now that we know he TAS'd those levels, its easy to see that was simple luck manipulation. I'll do what I can with the RNG, but I'm prepared to have to wait for at least some amount of time to ultimately end faster.
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Thanks kuja. Yeah that's the spot. My choices are to either take the hit as shown, or to shoot him at thr first frame he becomes vulnerable. I'll try both and go with whatever is faster (even by 1 frame).
As for the Chill Man run, you're right, there's definately a few more frames to squeeze out. I'm surprised the wheel cutter is a frame or two slower, but the reason is simple. The wheel is useless until it is embedded into the far wall, while using the coil or jet can clear the corner on the first possible frame. When jumping on rush jet, there's a single frame spot on the top of his head where Mega Man can touch, but still fall on the next frame. You CAN jump on this frame, and you must use this spot to get most effiecency out of the Rush Jet. Good luck with you run. I think I'm done doing the Time Trials for now. Only interested in finishing what I started.
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Myth busted. I can get up to that side with the Rush Coil, but Mega Man just travels above the screen when I try to use the wheel cutter or rush jet. Only way to initiate the screen change is to touch the top of the ladder.
As for my current progress, I'm hoping to have Solar Man complete this weekend. For the past few stages (Strike Man, Sheep Man, and Pump Man) my overall time has been faster than the current records (RTA and TAS), but some of the screens are too simple and have no improvements. However, I'm excited to see Solar Man played back, because so far, I've been able to improve every screen.
Right now, I'm at the part I've been dreading since the beginning. There's a laser flower enemy about 2/3's of the way through the level that sits in an area that makes it impossible to jump over. Since it's invunerable to all forms of damage while it's charging, all of the speedruns I've seen simply hop on Rush Jet, face backwards, and take the hit. So far I've found faster routes around/through everything without taking damage, so hopefully I can find a way past this part as well. Then I just have the Wily levels remaining.
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Yeah, that's the first thing I thought of when you mentioned it, too. The only problem is with that stage, you have to actually be standing on a bubble at the top (small or large) to trigger the screen change. Jumping or standing on rush jet doesn't change the screen and you simple go above the screen as normal. I'm pretty sure that's what's going to happen here, but as you said, its definately worth a try.
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Interesting theory. I'll try it out, but I'm pretty sure Mega Man needs to be on a ladder to trigger an upwards screen transition. And the purple blobs that the mets shoot in Pump Man's stage give Mega Man the same running properties as ice, so I don't lose any frames when moonwalking short distances.
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Yes, the top route is faster by almost 2 seconds. But it requires rush jet to be effecient, which the unassisted speeruns have never had at this point. Also, the lower route is alot easier. But the problem with the lower route is the backward pushing water screen is entirely too long. The time gained in the forward pushing screens isn't enough to make up for the time lost. I've tried several ideas (jumping, rush jet, left+right, etc) to glitch past it, but nothing wor.
