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biggyboy wrote:
Excellent wily 2. It's cool to see how insanely fast you can make them in a TAS. I was just wondering why you didn't kill the big momma. Did it mess up the RNG for upcoming parts?
Lol nope that was just me giving too much credit to the RTA again. Completely forgot to try killing it, thanks.
Did you do that in real time?? That's a hard sequence. Even that jump off the ladder to avoid the saucers has a very narrow window of opportunity.
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Hey, yea I was just working on it too. Kind of an annoying boss to TAS. His mechanics prevent him from being too much faster than an RTA.
During the third phase he's still one shot short of being able to be killed in one round unless you use a charged magma beam shot. He just isn't vulnerable for enough time.
I just finished and my splits for the three phases are:
85464 (screen starts moving)
85968 (screen starts moving)
86534 (takes final hit)
I think I ran into some RNG issues on the second screen so let me know if you've improved on any of those.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/21262500993073007
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I took a closer look at it and was able to save 13 more frames by getting a full jump down near the end.
It seems once again the top enemy is still the limiting factor. If you watch the comparison, both fights do the same number of hits in the time it takes the top enemy to reset his spike ball.
However, either due to RNG or fight mechanic manipulation, the rush jet strategy actually coaxes the top enemy to shoot his spike ball more often, which means a faster reset which contributed to the faster time.
Then the rush jet is able to clear the last two spike balls faster than the plug is.
:UPDATE:
Here's up to Wily Stage 2 Boss:
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/21258070844825538
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Ah, nice find! But it turns out the whole Magma strategy has to get scratched. Using the buster eliminates most of the down time and makes the fight finish in only 16.5 seconds! That's 94 frames faster. Additionally, since it doesn't use any weapon energy, it ends up being over 200 frames faster. I think there's still some tightening up to do with the buster fight, but here's how the two strategies compare:
Link to video
I also added your improvement to the end of the buster only fight.
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Yep, it did work and I was able to hex edit in the change. Then I saved about 18 frames at the first lava beam room. So in all, about 20 frames saved.
However, I also fixed the energy management which ended up costing about 45 frames in this level to save 6 frames overall. At this point, I'm going to assume we're going to need the M-Tank since we'll need to refill the magma bazooka and concrete shot before wily 4. Since this is the case, anytime we can "top up" the weapon we're using, we save 3 frames because the top pixel only takes 1 frame to fill instead of the full four. Keep this in mind whenever you're using weapons. Refill them as much as possible so the time lost from the M-Tank is reduced.
I also saved a few more frames on the boss. The limiting factor in this fight is the topmost enemy. I'm able to kill the bottom three enemies four times each before the top one hits his spike all the way to the left wall. Then I use the plug balls to hit the top spike ball on the first frame it becomes vulnerable. After that I kill the last red enemy at the same time the top enemy is killed. So I'm pretty sure that's going to be limit for this strategy. I did try a rush coil start, and not having the initial blast slows the fight down quite a bit.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/21242344372063836
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Wow, it only takes you 40 frames to kill the dragon with the coil out. There's no way switching to concrete will improve on that, especially when we need full concrete for wily 4.
Why did you turn around to kill this enemy, though? There's shouldn't be any RNG based moments in this stage.
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I thought about that, but then we wouldn't start the fight with a full charge which is one of the benefits of starting with the bazooka. It's worth a try though. Might eliminate the switch to plug.
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ALAKTORN wrote:
Those first Plasma Ball attacks looked really slow… can’t make them take a shorter path?
Nope, they're intentionally slow. The spike balls have a reset period after they hit the wall or the boss where nothing moves them for about a second after returning to their starting spot.
This is also why I have to wait for an extra second before firing the charged magma bazooka after damaging the boss.
I time the plug balls so they hit the spike ball on the first frame it becomes vulnerable. You'll notice my last two plug balls do in fact take the shorter path.
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biggyboy wrote:
As you see on the video I manage to not only zip off it but also ride the platform very quickly as it unwraps.
How exactly did you manage to get inside?
So I went ahead and tried a Magma Bazooka strat against Wily 1. Unfortunately we're left with only 2 pixels of energy left which isn't enough to get another full blast, but the plug balls seem to finish the job anyways.
Still some tightening up to do, but this strategy automatically loses 150 frames for switching weapons and at least another 100 to refill the weapons.
Still, it clears the boss in 17.73 seconds. The fastest in-game time trial by MegaDestructor9 is only 15.5 seconds (which took over 45 seconds real time) so this strategy is pretty damn fast.
Still have to try with the rush jet/buster only, but unless it's faster than 22 seconds or so the bazooka should be right choice.
Link to video
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Yea, I clip the edge of one of those in the run because it gives a slight zip-like boost. I tried to maneuver two zips out of them but there's not a safe platform below twice. It is interesting that you made it completely inside, but it just acts like a concrete block at the point. As so soon as you jump you'll be evicted.
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Haha yea those are never fun. I usually use the frame at which all the sprites despawn as a benchmark and try it over and over again. It takes 20 frames to reach maximum height, but it's faster to grab the ladder before this because your upwards acceleration during the last few frames is less than climbing speed. Also, unless the platform is really high, it's usually faster to use rush jet to get an extra jump up.
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biggyboy wrote:
I think this is a nice strategy for met+sniper joe room: http://www.twitch.tv/dabigbooi2/b/631405883
It's very tight to vanquish the Met before he fires his shot while still having Sniper Joe facing left. Second strategy is for real time use.
Nice biggy! We can incorporate those when we redo the level. Still have some other things to touch up on.
AngerFist wrote:
I am pretty damn sure that even if we switch to a stronger weapon, refilling weapon X should take much less time compared with having a much faster boss fight.
The Magma Bazooka might be a good candidate since it can hit three of the spike balls at once.
:UPDATE:
Here's the updated file with 146 frames of improvement to Tornado Man's stage.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/21150791537985066
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Ah, yes I tried a small jump but I couldn't squeeze under him. I actually didn't try.... waiting. Haha. Same mistake you made on the spiders. I'll check it later. If it's faster I can hex it in.
:UPDATE:
Well it's faster by 12 frames to wait for him to pass but hex editing isn't really working. Keeps desyncing the next screen with the red sniper joe.
But I also found another improvement anyway.
In the the second screen, I use rush jet while facing to the right and he uses up energy after I jump on him until I make it to the next screen transition. This energy can be used in the rain section to save a few frames, so it's going to be faster to make sure Mega Man is facing to the left when he calls Rush Jet so the jet flies into the wall and disappears sooner to conserve energy. So pretty much have to redo the whole level, but at least we have the route laid out and the benchmark.
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1) There shouldn't be any hit. Probably a desync. Where exactly is it happening? Let me know if it persists when you try to play it and I'll redo the fight.
2) I did test this, yes (and just retested again). I hop at the beginning because accelerating from a stop is slightly slower than hopping into the rain, but after that you need to be on the ground as much as possible. Even though hopping over ledges gets you down to the lower ground faster, it also increases your air time, which ends up being slower by 1 frame.
And yea, I was actually suprised I found three extra zips from the dissapearing blocks themselves. Those were only possible because I was in the perfect position from zipping in the first place. Zipcetion!
I'm so glad a strategy like that is possible, since I was worried from the beginning that the zip would never really get to be fully shown in this TAS due to not having quick weapon switching.
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AngerFist wrote:
Also, I had completely forgotten to ask you this before but why did you pause abuse the Jewel Man fight? Since we haven't done it before in our run, I do not think that will look good and consistent with our goal, which is no pause abuse.
Because it saves 1 frame. Also, I would argue that the weapon refresh I did there is exactly what would not be considered "abuse" as I only used it once. Our goal isn't "no pause abuse," it's fastest any%. Weapon refreshing is a viable tactic for finishing the game faster. Granted, we haven't had to use it up to this point, but that's only because it takes 75 frames to perform, so any tactic must save at least this many frames. Using it against Jewel Man actually saved 76 frames (this is obvious by his position at the end) but only 1 of them counted. Also, there will be times we'll need to do it during the wily stages (wily stage 3's boss for instance).
Also, I was up all night but I got a surprise for you:
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/21110685029486964
Using the concrete shot route was indeed a lot faster by nearly 150 frames!!! Thanks Biggyboy! That's even counting the frames it takes to switch weapons (so it saves nearly 300 frames).
I found so many zips, that it was actually fast enough to make it to the next frame rule! Which means there's really no possible improvements on the stage.
Then I went ahead and TAS'd Tornado man, too, since I did that one back in the day so I already know the route.
This file now has us sitting at Wily 1! The save file for the eight bosses shows 11:47 in-game time and it took us about 18:10 real time. Now it's time for the fun part, haha. We'll have to plan our weapon usage throughout all 4 wily levels.
I compared our run to the 32:01 RTA record by privateye (which is the longest standing record for a "classic" mega man game) as well as to the 20:37 in-game time record by rggibson.
We've improved on the RTA by a full minute, and we're also ahead of the in-game time record by 45 seconds. It's very likely that an in-game TAS starting with Tornado Man would improve on that even more, though.
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/21106156331517833
Here's the updated file, and I fixed your rush coil usage so we have enough energy for the whole stage. However, if you take a look a look at the end of the file, I was unfortunately right, the blocks there create a frame rule.
We're actually only a few frames away from passing it, but as it stands, we lose all of the time we saved over the rta (about 2 seconds) at that screen since it takes over 100 frames of waiting to continue.
However, I have an idea that uses biggyboy's concrete shot route that could fix it. It costs a lot of time to switch weapons, but the block pattern is paused the entire time. This means any time saved from zipping goes directly towards breaking that frame rule. So we should be able to use concrete shot for the first half of level to make it past those blocks at the end.
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Right I'll hex all that in.
One question, though.
I took a look at the end of your file and you don't have enough rush jet energy left to make it all the way across the gap (and platform up two spots later on). Did you have something else in mind for that? Otherwise we'll have to tighten up the jet usage earlier in the level and possibly even use one or two of the blocks like the record 32:01 rta does. This might slow the rush jet route enough to make biggboy's concrete shot route faster since it conserves jet energy. The block timing is based fixed from start of the level and the blocks before the last ladder might create a frame rule for us when we get there.
ALAKTORN wrote:
Does Dolphin have RAM Watch? It sounds like you aren’t watching the RNG. You could maybe use Cheat Engine or something else too for it. Finding the RNG shouldn’t be too hard, I’d look for 4 bytes changing every frame.
Yea, I think I heard something about it but I'm not sure how to use it or where it is. It's not exactly a prominent or intuitive feature of Dolphin at this point. But trial and error works just the same.
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DDRKhat wrote:
My final question in this would be; do we know -how- it affects Mega's jump arc?
I'm not sure yet, I'll be able to tell you more once we actually aqcuire the weapon. But I'm guessing it's some kind of positive multiplier onto your vertical acceleration depending on how close you are to the line. That's why your descent is slowed if you missed your timing and why not jumping at all doesn't do anything.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/21071703673347741
AngerFist,
Here's a file that should save 8 more frames by using your route for the first half of the level but skips the energy refill. Total of 22 frames saved so far, however, I stopped before the last see-saw area because I still have one pixel of bee energy left and I haven't switched to BHB yet. If we can save one more bee somewhere in the level, we can kill the first spider in the last leg of the level with them, then switch to black hole bomb to kill the second spider. Could save another 8-10 frames. Did killing one spider have any RNG luck on the boss?
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Good question.
Ignore the fancy tornado sprites. The weapon actually acts a horizontal line that moves up the screen. As you've mentioned, Mega Man's vertical acceleration is increased while above this line, and some enemies and projectiles are blown away.
Larger enemies such as bosses take damage as they pass through the line.
This is the reason why Magma Man can be killed in 4 T.blows. If he's at the bottom level and you time your shot until he's about to jump, he will take the first hit immediately, and follow the line up as he jumps. After his invincibility wears off he will still be inside the line and take his second hit from the same T. Blow.
AngerFist wrote:
What's left to test is killing the opposite spider and see if that result in a better manipulation.
I'm fairly positive that individual spiders don't matter since it only matters how many times the RNG was called. So our options are no spiders, one spider, or both spiders. As far as waiting for the optimal pattern, I got your pattern if I killed neither spider and waited 7 frames.
Each weapon refill pellet takes 4 frames per pixel UNLESS the refill fills the top pixel, in which case that last pixel only takes 1 frame. But since we're not topping off the weapon energy it's 8 frames.
Did you try clearing the part after the miniboss with a black hole bomb? We have one extra. I think if we kill both spiders for RNG and kill the miniboss, we can skip the refill pellet and use the BHB on that last green enemy. Although it wont look nearly as cool as having that bee chase you across the stage, it should save 8 frames.
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You're right about weapon use, but boss RNG is all about how many enemies are killed (plus timing).
Killing those two spiders puts the optimal pattern on the right frame to not wait at the door. But since I avoided those two spiders instead of killing them, this puts optimal pattern on a different frame.
In mega man 10 killing an enemy called the RNG and moved the optimal pattern sooner by 1 frame. I'm not sure why its not the same case here.
But another thing to note is that in MM10, refill drops appeared as soon as the enemy is killed. In this game, it takes 4 or so frames after killing the enemy for the RNG to determine the drop. That could have something to do with it.
The only question is if using that weapon energy to manipulate the miniboss is worth the weapon refill, which I dont think it is (by 1 frame).
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So Anger, I was playing around with the beginning of Jewel Man's stage because I noticed it's possible to pass two of the spider's without killing them and wasting bees as I do here:
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20923657249304951
Unfortunately, this messes up the RNG for the miniboss and adds 6-7 frames of wait time to get a better spawn.
However, the only reason why I wanted to check it was because I saw you picked up a small weapon refill pellet at frame 38726 because you ran out of energy.
Since that refill costed 8 frames, this means 1 or 2 frames can be saved by not killing those spiders and saving the bees for when you need them.
Or if there's a way to not need that refill pellet at all it would save 8 frames. There's an extra shot of black hole bomb at the end, maybe we can use that somehow?
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biggyboy wrote:
I think C. Shot Plug Man is good. I messed around with it trying to find a good real time route www.twitch.tv/dabigbooi2/b/621037134?t=15s
A TAS could do another zip at 0:41 and on the spikes at 0:46.
Pardon me for my noobish question but how do I get your movie to play on dolphin? I get this error on dolphin 4.0-5396.
Yea I get that error sometimes, too. I tried searching online but never really found an answer. We're using revision 4.0-4796, but just make sure that idle skipping and dual core are both turned off, and use the DPS LLE sound recompiler. But I'm pretty sure the error comes from the controller settings, so make sure all the gamecube controllers and wiimotes 2-4 are set to none. Then make sure wiimote motor and speakers are off. Or try changing some settings in the emulated wiimote 1.
Hope that helps.
As far as your concrete shot strategy, it looks great and probably helps to get a consistently fast real time route, but as I mentioned before, even if you somehow managed to get a full zip off every C. shot, it still doesn't make up for the time it takes to switch to that weapon (short by about 24 frames). AngerFist uploaded a route that only uses the rush jet since we have to use it later in the level. Since it only changes weapons once, it's faster than yours (even fully optimized) by about half a second.
Thanks for your idea, though.
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Nice work! Gotta love them bees. I'll see if I can find any improvements, but it looks pretty solid.
:UPDATE:http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20868466338130691
I saved 14 frames by the end of Jewel Man's stage, which was enough to take another second off the game clock. Most of it came from avoiding the second spider instead of hitting it, and the rest came from using a weapon refresh on the boss. I was curious if this was faster since I didn't use it when I TAS'd Jewel Man back in 2011 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLbR3C7iHfc). Your strategy was faster than mine from back then by about half a second, but I was able to squeeze in a weapon cancel here and this new strategy is the fastest by about 2 frames!
There's still a couple more spots I want to check on Jewel Man's stage before I attempt to hex edit in Splash Woman's stage.
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ALAKTORN wrote:
ALAKTORN wrote:
Also was it really necessary to kill the small bees at the boss? Looked like it slowed you down.
I don’t think this was ever answered. Also I see you were able to improve the shot on that ball-shooting thing, lol.
Actually, I answered this with the latest run. The answer is no, its not necessary. One of the bees can be avoided to get an extra hit on the boss. This ALMOST saves about 8 frames, but the boss still has 2 pixels of life left as shown here (this is frame 32553 using this strategy, note the boss/bee location and life left).
In the run, I have to wait and shoot the boss here in order for him to take damage from all three shots (because of his upwards movement). This also puts me in the middle of room where I need to be which means the time is the same whether I shoot the bees or not (frame 32561).
Not shooting the bee would definitely be a faster in game time strategy, though, since you can switch weapons in between hits to finish off that last 2 pixels and there's no need to be in the center of the room. But the boss fight still looks better now. And were you're right about the ball-shooting thing. That was one of the improvements to the run.
In the run, I have to wait and shoot the boss here in order for him to take damage from all three shots (because of his upwards movement). This also puts me in the middle of room where I need to be which means the time is the same whether I shoot the bees or not (frame 32561).
Not shooting the bee would definitely be a faster in game time strategy, though, since you can switch weapons in between hits to finish off that last 2 pixels and there's no need to be in the center of the room. But the boss fight still looks better now. And were you're right about the ball-shooting thing. That was one of the improvements to the run.