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ALAKTORN wrote:
@Diggi: What about getting hit by Magma Man so that you can maneuver better and maybe kill it faster? Does the knockback cost too much time?
Yea, I tried taking damage but the resultant knockback takes 30 frames until you gain control again. I only needed 13 frames to maneuver around his shots.
got4n wrote:
So I was testing agwawaf suggestions, and I thought something and it seems that we can save 3 frames using ladders, like going into them then pressing at first frame possible the button to release the ladder :D
Poor Angerfist :(
I'll post my conclusions about agwawaf tests soon ;D
What part is this? I know if you have to descend a ladder it's absolutely beneficial to grab it for a frame then immediately jump off, as seen halfway through concrete man's stage. But going up a ladder is a little different, since its possible to be too high up the ladder to still grab it to continue on. If you can't clear the ladder entirely with a jump, then you need to grab it a full body length lower to still climb up.
By the way,I think Galaxyman's stage is improvable a lot.
In the first weapon select, chosing rush coil instead of concrete shot is better.
And then after you use rush coil once at the 1:06 room to go up to the first step, chose concrete shot to go up to the second step.
I don't see how rush coil can be faster at all for the first room, as I hit the ladder on the first frame possible. But more importantly, I need the concrete shot to clear the spike gap as well as get up into the teleporter box in the second room. Maybe you could elaborate?
For the 1:06, you're right that concrete shot is faster there, but the problem is that in order to switch to concrete shot and then switch back to rush coil afterwards wastes whopping 150 frames. I'm not sure how much time it saves, so I'll check it when I get there. But that's the main reason why I chose to TAS Mega Man 10 instead. A bunch of time saving tactics can't be utilized in this TAS because weapon switching takes so long. So many tricks that I'm sure MegaDestructor9's 19:18 in-game time might not be beaten with this TAS. After this TAS is complete, I'll probably do a run through of all the time trials aiming for in-game time as I've already done for Magma Man. It might not get accepted here, but I think it would be fun to watch regardless.
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As long as it saves 74 frames, then yes, it probably would. I did that run years ago so I'm not sure why I chose not to refresh it. I'll check that when I get to that point.
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The editing worked! Thanks a lot Scepheo.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20153731349642357
Here's the updated file and I went ahead and cleared Magma Man, too. The save time is now 2:55. There are some moments he's too high in the air to reach, and then I had to finish the fight a little off-center because of his mandatory pattern. Should probably check it to see if you can find an improvement. It's possible starting the fight with rush coil instead of buster could save some time, but other than that we can now start galaxy man.
The route is pretty much already laid out here:
Link to video
The stage took 1:33 in that run, so it should at the very least aim to improve on that. With the weapon switching hack, I was able to use tactics that actually saved 6 whole seconds on that stage, but we wont have that luxury.
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Scepheo wrote:
Sorry about that, seems the zip was compressed with LZMA instead of Deflate. Try again, see if it works now.
So, it opens now, and it seems to work for the most part, but it bugs out whenever I try to copy over frames that have no input.
This is what happens. The left is what I'm copying, the right is what gets pasted into the new file.
Trying to save the file returns the error: "Requested value '80 80 9A' was not found."
When I try to fix the cells manually by typing in the correct values, I still get an error: "Object reference not set to an instance of an object."
Am I doing something wrong?
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Damn! ClutchFist squeezes through the magma beams! That's an awesome frame-perfect discovery. Good luck to any rta runner that wants to attempt that. The stage looks great as well and I also like how you manipulated the enemy drops.
The only thing I noticed is you had one extra C. Shot after all the mandatory beam freezes and worm-enemy zips, so you chose to use the C. Shot to platform up the first ladder twice. Did this save more frames than using the C. shot in the same manner on either of the other two ladders in the stage at 3:00 and 3:41? Possibly even 3:19 to avoid using the ladder at all. I'll check that when I get a chance.
Up to this point, we've only saved about 10 seconds total off of Exo's run. Roughly 5 seconds on each stage for around a 4% improvement. Kind of a testament to how good Exo's run really is.
Edit:
So, AngerFist. Hate to say it, but I got some bs info. I just tested the other ladders, and using that extra C. shot saves 8 frames at the ladder before the dragon, 16 frames for the first ladder (where you used it), and 17 frames for both the second ladder and the ladder at 3:41. This means we'll have to remove the second c.shot you used to platform up the first ladder, use it to platform up the second ladder, and then repeat your stage run to save one damn frame.
Anyone know how to hex edit? ><
Edit2:
Here's the change. This file is one frame ahead at the point I left off. Unfortunately, this is clear back before the first magma beam.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20085190050379631
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Good to hear that! Luckily, I'm pretty sure Magma Man's optimal pattern isn't dependent upon RNG at all so we'll be able to keep whatever route you find to be the fastest through the stage without having to change it any more to manipulate the fight.
Also, I'm not sure if you've seen it, but I did an in-game time TAS of this stage a few years ago. We can't use much, if any, of the same tactics, but from what I can remember, I was also unable to find a way to squeeze past that magma beam without using the laser trident. We'll have to just wait there.
Link to video
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Right. While airborne, Mega Man's horizontal speed is set to max. Also, there's no sliding feature, so wall hugging doesn't change vertical/horizontal acceleration, but it does allow Mega Man to continue forward on the first frame he loses contact with the wall.
I still think this route has to be faster than the in-game time route that starts with Tornado Man. I was reviewing Richard Gibson's run, and there doesn't seem to be much we're missing by not having Tornado Blow right off the bat. Not all of the tactics he used save 74 frames. Then there's also the fact that the C.shot/laser trident is used on every beam in Magma man's stage which is completely unnecessary in this TAS. Thankfully, Gibson saved after every level so it's pretty easy to see how this route compares along the way, adjusting for imperfections.
I've already TAS'd Tornado Man and found around 15 seconds of improvement in that stage alone. But there's a frame rule with the platforms near the end of the level that erases all of that. Having the rush jet there will allows us to keep those frames as well as save a lot more.
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Thanks Anger.
Here's the updated file with Concrete Man finished and Magma Man started. Amazingly, I checked the save time for this file and the split second saved during the stage was enough to bring the clear time down to 1:26! I didn't even know that was possible, as I thought my old 1:27 was the limit.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/19972729265201313Link to video
As for Magma Man, you're correct, there will probably be very few if any zips for this stage because we need so many C. Shots for the magma beams. There is a large weapon refill pellet halfway through the stage we can consider grabbing though. If it's like MM10, then it will be useful to reference what I posted in that submission:
"Big pellets refill up to 8 pixels, and small pellets refill up to 2. When refilling a weapon, everything in the game is frozen. This freeze lasts 4 frames for every pixel of energy added to the weapon's energy bar. The freeze stops all motion, explosions, projectiles, and the in-game timer. The RNG based timer continues through the freeze, as well as TASvideo's timing. After the freeze, Mega Man continues his velocity before the freeze."
I must say, though, Dolphin's TAS'ing capabilities have vastly improved since my MM10 era. Rerecording actually works reliably which helps speed things up immensely.
However, I did encounter the mystery lag you were talking about where I was unable to fire the weapon in certain rare instances for a single frame. Thankfully, it hasn't impeded progress yet, as I only had to adjust my position to fire on the next frame and still land the shot at the correct time. Hopefully, this bug doesn't hinder anything in the future.
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Amaraticando wrote:
The other info is valuable, but posting the following links makes OP looks stupid:
The OP didn't mention what his level of experience or knowledge with ACE or programming in general was, so there's nothing wrong with referencing material suitable for any level.
It's very possible for any casual viewer to watch an ACE TAS and find it interesting enough to want to play around with themselves. Take me, for example. Masterjun's simply pointing out that that the task isn't as simple as it might appear. That's why I decided to leave well enough alone.
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AngerFist wrote:
I concluded the Rush Coil version was about 70-80 frames faster.
If you intend to redo the stage, enter your name in the beginning too.
I'm working on it. I used the alphabetical name ADG. Obviously doesn't really matter, but it saves 119 frames lol.
Also yes, I tested the non-rush coil route first, but as I mentioned back in 2011:
"A weapon cancel (refreshing from the weapon select menu) takes 74 frames. Changing weapons takes 75-79 frames depending on how far down the list the new weapon is. Naturally, this means for any time saving tactic doesn't save at least 74 frames, a real-time route will skip it and remain on the current weapon."
The first two ladders and the frame with the spider/cannon/spikes use the rush coil to save well over 75 frames, so switching is undeniably beneficial, despite losing a few extra frames on the boss. But you were right, the third rush coil I used at 1:17 is actually slower.
UPDATE:
Alright, some good news. I finished the style remake of the first stage and besides the 119 frames saved from the name change, I was able to squeeze out another 3 frames from the stage itself. Amazingly, this also corrected the RNG so he uses his optimal pattern without waiting, which means a total of 10 frames were saved for this stage.
All that's left is to re-input got4n's boss fight without the missed shots. I can do that later this week, but I'll upload the stage here.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/19928432776234320
Let me know if you guys get what I mean about the style. Personally, I think this one looks even better than the other one I uploaded. I'll point out that manipulating refill pellets (and not grabbing them) looks good, as does silly things like the rush placement here:
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I don't see anything wrong with a healthy debate. You mention the viewers will know it was done on purpose, but it only brings about the question as to what this purpose is. It doesn't manipulate anything, it looks sloppy (as mentioned by Anty-Lemon), and furthermore, it forgoes the opportunity to unlock a rather hard achievement (Bust A Move - Don't miss with the Mega Buster and clear the game), for no apparent gain.
However, I absolutely condone spontaneity. I try to manipulate large energy refill pellets out of every enemy, and look for unorthodox tactics such as the one around the 1:00 minute mark here:
Link to video
Granted, we're kind of limited in our options for this game without weapon switching, but I'm only highlighting this since it's only been one level and is relatively quick to correct now that we have a complete .dtm of the level for reference. I just wasn't sure if this precedent was going to continue into the rest of the stages.
And yes, looking at our options, Magma Man is going to be the best bet for continuing. That will give us the hornet chaser we need to clear jewel man's mini-boss.
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got4n wrote:
Link to video
Improved the Concrete Man fight, looks good I think(?). I'm losing 17 frames here, 10 frames because of the R.Coil calls Rush first before being able to shoot, the 7 frames are to manipulate RNG :p
Looks better, but a few minor annoyances bug my OCD. What's with this missed shots again? Doesn't belong in a tool-assisted superplay where every move can be precisely calculated. Also, wait frames (the seven frames you needed to get him to do the correct pattern) can be hidden anywhere through out the level instead of abruptly stopping so the TAS flows better.
As an example, the first stage of MM10 (Commando Man) needed over 50 waiting frames to get him to do the correct pattern. Instead of standing still for almost a second, I used ever so slightly sub-optimal routes through the level that eliminated this wait. Doing it this way, the TAS appears as optimal as it is, and you wont need to explain your actions as you felt the need to do here.
Other than that, the fight looked good. Is the save time 1:27 now? And can you upload the dtm again.
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ALAKTORN wrote:
If having a faster boss fight triggers one more achievement screen, then it’s probably faster to lose time at the boss so that you can skip that screen.
You're correct, but that challenge will just be unlocked later during the refight in Wily 4 when he can be beaten in a few seconds with his weakness weapon.
But you do bring up a good point in that certain challenges should be avoided, if possible. In MM10, the achievements popped up without hindering progress so I got as many as I could. But in this game, the pop ups take about a second to dismiss.
This means challenges such as Bunny Hop (Clear any stage jumping 50 times or less) and Fantastic 9 (Accumulate 9 lives) and possibly a few others need to be avoided.
In this run, I unlocked:
Hard Rock (Reach a boss' room without getting damaged)
Speed Metal (Reach a boss' room without stopping once)
Blue Bomber (Defeat a boss without getting damaged)
Eco Fighter (Defeat a boss with only the mega buster)
Quick Draw C (Defeat Concrete Man in 10 seconds or less)
However, it may seem that Hard Rock, speed metal, and blue bomber are also unnecessary challenges, in that the time it takes to avoid them is less than the time it takes to dismiss the unlock. This is true for the first level, but since the challenge can only be unlocked once, this allows us to complete all the rest of the stages without purposely stopping or taking damage to avoid an achievement. The time gained from all the levels makes up for the time lost dismissing the pop up.
Although, another point could be made for this superplay of a modern TAS to actually include as many achievements as feasible in a slight speed/entertainment trade-off. The two I mentioned earlier can be easily obtained without even wasting any time (besides the second to confirm the unlock) and another example is Bust a Move (Don't miss with the Mega Buster and clear the game), although that will be unlocked after the credits, so it wont actually impede progress at all and, in my opinion, should be unlocked anyways.
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got4n wrote:
If your dtm doesn't play it's pretty normal, you should try to replay them on the same dolphin version and it should sync, what version you used? :P
And, these runs uses w.Switching no?
Yea I tried that. Immediately stops playback and returns the error:
Fatal desync. Aborting playback. (Error in PlayWiimote: 7!= 4, byte 300.)
Thanks for the posting the run.
I'd have to agree with Anty-Lemon here. It looks more aesthetically pleasing when all of Mega Man's actions have a purpose.
Also the boss fight was noticeably slower than the one I posted. It's possible to keep 100% uptime on him without taking damage. Just listening to the audio track, you can actually hear a few pauses in the damage (before the 5th, 15th, and 25th hits). From what I remember I was able to manipulate his jumps (as in avoid them entirely) by being a certain distance from him. If the invincibility is the same as MM10, then he should take a hit every 20 frames.
As for the RNG, it should be the same as MM10 but it's been so long I don't remember. If that's the case, then yes simply waiting a few frames (I like to hide wait frames in other areas throughout the level) will change the pattern, as does killing enemies.
If you guys are going to continue with that route I can go ahead and run through the tornado man route to get an estimate on the clear time. Then we can refine the one that's more efficient.
EDIT:
I managed to find an old encode of me finishing Concrete Man without using the weapon switch hack (I knew I kept this junk around for a reason haha). You'll notice I unlock the achievement "Quick Draw C" which is done by defeating Concrete Man in under 10 seconds. The run you posted was just shy of this mark. I saved immediately afterwards and the in-game time is 1:27. I uploaded it for reference. I think the weapon usage throughout the stage looks cleaner here as well, and I'm pretty sure I squeezed a few more frames out of the stage run. It's unfortunate I no longer have the dtm, but again, if you listen to the audio, the last note of the background music before the boss intro is cut a few frames short compared to yours. I noticed you didn't use rush coil at 1:17 and I think there's a slightly faster way past the green enemies that pop out of the pits in the beginning.
Link to video
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Alright, downloaded the same version. I did manage to find these .dtm's on my computer, but I can't even get them to play with the version we are using so I'm not sure how helpful they can be.
Tornado ManConcrete Man
Finishing up the holiday festivies soon so I'll stay in the chatroom you mentioned for now, but I think our time zones are pretty far apart. Can you send me your dtm?
Also, yes, the link I posted for the concrete man boss fight zip glitch only shows the discussion that arose afterwards; I can't find the video anymore. I do remember seeing it years ago, though, and there was definitely some funny business going on there. It has to do with the way concrete man shoots his first volley of concrete shots. I believe he got hit by one and then was forced through the floor by another, after which the boss instantly died. Like I said though, nothing I tried forced me through the floor.
I already analyzed the concrete shot zip to find the most effective use of it. Basically, you run through it as it forms until you are one frame past the halfway point, and then jump for maximum zip. Double/triple zips are also possible as I used in the video I posted.
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I'd be down to collaborate on this. What were you thinking, each pick a separate route to see if there's a significant time difference, then refine the best one? Or is there a more efficient method?
As for the desyncs, I haven't used Dolphin since I finished the TAS with Bass for MM10 so I don't know how far it's capabilities have improved, but I always found excessive rerecording to desync quite often.
If that's still the case, the only fix I found was to avoid rerecording as much as possible, simply by manually recording frame numbers and inputs for a segment (few screens at a time), and then going back through frame by frame without rerecording. That's why the two MM10 runs have so few rerecords. Hopefully that isn't still necessary. As you can imagine, it was incredibly tedious to finish the entire game (twice!) like that and was one of the main reasons why I stopped TAS'ing this in the first place.
I figured I'd come back to it when the issues were resolved for convenience sake. Is there a TAS suitable version I should be downloading?
GoddessMaria15 wrote:
That's a pretty interesting glitch! I wonder how much time do you think it'd save?
If it can exploited correctly, then I'd say it could save up to 7 or 8 seconds on that fight because he wont be able to phase away. Then again, the creator of the video did mention he possibly used Tornado Blow as the means to accomplish it. If that's true, then it would not be a useful glitch for the TAS. T. Blow energy is incredibly scarce and even setting up the glitch would consume all the time saved.
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Link to video
Well, I kind of ran into a little wall after the first two stages of the Concrete Man -> Weakness order route. I no longer have the dtm but the time was 3:02 and it's still up on YouTube, so shouldn't be to difficult to reproduce/improve. Although, that run was using the weapon switching hack which, after further consideration, does not belong in this TAS.
As I stated before, the options after that point are to continue with the weakness order into Jewel Man, or go through Hornet Man first to speed up Jewel Man's mini-boss.
Also, because it takes 5 stages instead of 4 to get the Rush Jet, and it's most useful in Tornado Man and Plug Man's stage, I'm thinking of something more like:
Concrete>Galaxy>Hornet>Jewel>Splash>Plug>Tornado>Magma
Another possible route goes:
Tornado>Splash>Concrete>Magma>Hornet>Galaxy>Jewel>Plug
This route is used the in the record 19:18 in-game time run, and it has some benefits by having the Tornado Blow so early.
And a final possible route is:
Concrete>Magma>Galaxy>Hornet>Jewel>Splash>Plug>Tornado
This one is used in the record 32:01 real time run. The benefit here is that Rush Jet is available for all three stages it's most useful in.
My plan was to make a quasi-optimized run of all of the routes, compare the times, and hope for a significant time difference. Then I would go simply back through and refine the better one.
At this point I think that's what still needs to be done. Also, this game does have a few glitches that should be investigated. There was one incident of Mega Man zipping through the floor during the fight with Concrete Man and the boss instantly died. This was during the time trial though, so I'm not sure if it's possible in a run. I was unable to replicate it. Another glitch is shown here:
Link to video
This one looks promising because it was done in a regular run and it can save a ton of time on that phase.
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And they got it. Just in time to amuse nearly 100,000 viewers. I think the record is 150k or so. I'm guessing it will pass that in a few days. Especially since it's only only another day or so until we get back to the Pokemon Tower with the Silph Scope. Then another day to get to the top....
Plenty of quality content to come. Stay tuned!
Honestly the anarchy/democracy system is awesome. Each system has it's own advantages/disadvantages, and the community can call on the one they need at certain points. Tricky spots such as that maze require the finesse of democracy, but anarchy moves faster.
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Spikestuff wrote:
Patashu wrote:
FractalFusion wrote:
I guess somewhere in the past 24 hours is when most sensible people realized that this project had outdone itself. The largest number of viewers at one time was once close to 80K; enjoy it while it lasts, since it's not going back there anymore.
Too early to claim such things, when the effects of time of day, time zones, time of week, etc all have a huge impact on viewer counts rising and declining.
Being based Australia.
School is on now. It started between 29th Jan - 3rd Feb.
Uni starts on the 25th of January.
So the young Australians are dead until Late Friday, Saturdays and Sundays.
In other words Australia is going to lose viewers.
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I doubt it's the majority. It's more than likely just a few hundred people at a time trying to sabotage the game. With the voting system, though, those few trouble makers had the easy advantage. And the hindmind took care of the rest.
Here's the naughty list:
http://75.101.189.40/tpp.html
Still a very interesting experiment. Luckily the input register has been reversed, as I suspected.
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They just changed the way inputs are registered.
Now it's a poll where only the leading input is registered. Should be easier to coordinate, but the delay makes the wrong moves win the vote most of the time. And with the added delay in action, I can see this change being reversed or people will begin to lose interest.
Trying to save the file returns the error: "Requested value '80 80 9A' was not found."
When I try to fix the cells manually by typing in the correct values, I still get an error: "Object reference not set to an instance of an object."
Am I doing something wrong?
And it's already killed. Probably reversing it. Or patching up that exploit you suggested.