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I mentioned before a speedrun (speed primary goal) category and a superplay (entertainment primary goal) category before. This would replace the current moons and vault tiers making them equal by separating them by primary goal. Stars would remain the same.
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They are any% because there is no faster category other than game breaking glitches. Calling them warpless should never have been done, but it likely occurred before we started standardizing the category naming, and I think it could be a result of temporary obsoletion.
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This happened within a minute. That was one powerful kick :D
* ChanServ gives channel operator status to Mothrayas
* Mothrayas has kicked LogSpikestuff from #tasvideos (three is too much)
* SpikeyMuffin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
* ChanServ removes channel operator status from Mothrayas
<ais523> Mothrayas: ugh at the timing there
It's too bad the kick didn't happen after the ping timeout, that would have been much more funny.
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* Quibus has quit (Quit: See you later folks...)
<FerretWarlord> Where's the Bedonken?
<Shinryuu> damn.. he changed his quit message
<scrimpy> FerretWarlord: You killed it.
<FerretWarlord> I was there when it died.
[...]
[Quibus rejoined]
[...]
Quibus> good night
* Quibus (~manuel@dhcp-077-249-147-213.chello.nl) has left #tasvideos ("Bedonken!")
[...]
<scrimpy> There is the Bedonken.
<FerretWarlord> yay~
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I also quoted adelikat out of context at the end because it is funny in the context of out of context.
* adelikat has quit (Quit: Leaving)
<TASeditor> you can attack every 26th frame
<finap13> pounding is not super slow
<finap13> its every 27 frames i think
* Samsara (~Samsara@2601:646:c301:a611:e4b5:dcc8:99fe:f903) has joined #tasvideos
<arandomgameTASer> Samsara: what timing
<xy2_> supsara
<Samsara> oh god what happened
<Samsara> i mean hi
* adelikat (~adelikat@cpe-172-74-90-16.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #tasvideos
<finap13> so should i stick with pounding?
<Samsara> o_o
<adelikat> did I miss a good convo?
<arandomgameTASer> indeed
<arandomgameTASer> ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
<Anty> lmao that looks so wrong out of context
<arandomgameTASer> Anty-Lemon: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontExplainTheJoke
<Anty> I'm implying there's a context
<adelikat> I got a new toy
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http://tasvideos.org/853M.html, the current NES Ghosts 'n Goblins TAS is not showing that it is obsolete, and it shows up in the complete game list for NES.
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I disagree with the notion that there is not enough room on this site for multiple versions/ports (provided they are not completely identical, which Ghosts 'n Goblins is not). There is not a problem of limited space on this site.
A bigger problem is that if I look for the Ghosts 'n Goblins TAS, I am going to search in the NES list because that is one that I know. Also, it would look funny to have such an important game absent in the NES list, which would make the game list incomplete.
Edit: OK, it was unobsoleted which I think generally solves this.
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No there is not 2 star tiers. The purpose of this is to make speedruns and superplays considered to be on the same level instead of throwing most speedruns in the trash. Demo is its own thing that is not required to exist for the new system. In fact, I think we should start with changing the current 3 categories (as was initially proposed) and expand to 4 at a later time. Apparently the proposed demo is confusing many people.
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It should also be noted that the 2 player TAS is very old and is more than likely unoptimized. It is entirely possible that the 2 player could be faster than the 1 player when optimized, and would then obsolete the 1 player. We need someone to look into 2 player because it would be a shame if people automatically assumed that 1 player is faster for this game because the 2 player is obsolete.
And yes as it is, the 2 player should be vaulted and then obsoleted.
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Warp wrote:
I would also love to see (as I have mentioned in the past) a kind of "official" list of "world record tool-assisted completions". Something that somebody could easily check to see what the current record is. This would be pretty much the proposed new "Vault" category.
(It's too bad that this idea is made very difficult by the fact that it's hard to unambiguously define for some games which one of the completions should be the "official WR completion", given all the savedata corruption, arbitrary code execution, and so on. Clear rules would need to be delineated, but I get the feeling that I personally wouldn't agree with the majority consensus. Thus perhaps for my own sanity and peace of mind it's probably best that this idea was abandoned. A pity, but perhaps it's for the best.)
The solution is to recognize that there are multiple any% (game end glitch is separate from normal any%) and recognize each one.
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Do we really need to have tiers at all (except for the star and recommended for newcomers tags) if we use a page system that filters by a range of movie ratings? There is a proposed 4 tier system that would place TASes based on movie ratings, but that seems unnecessary and redundant with the page filter.
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feos wrote:
Yes. 2 is about being entertaining. 3 is about being not entertaining but impressive in some other way.
The only actual "problem" then is calling those tiers. Well, what other names would fit the concept?
I already mentioned categories. That's because 1 and 2 would be considered to be equal categories.
4 is for the best of the TASes as it has been (there is also recommend for newcomer for promotion)
3 is for the proposed demo (or also gruefood delight), which does not have to be implemented right now for this overall change. This was added in response to the thread about it, iirc. Perhaps the main proposal should omit this for now; it seems to be a distraction at the moment.
The main reason for this proposal is to eliminate middle cases (and thus all these argument threads) between the vault and moon by making them categories (of primary goal of speed vs entertainment) instead. We can still filter by movie rating by default.
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Warp wrote:
Not really on topic, but I'm still of the opinion that the reputation of the Vault and Moon tiers ought to be reversed (with name changes to reflect it.)
Getting to Vault ought to be a hard-earned privilege. After all, a run can get there only in a very narrow set of circumstances: It has to be an any% or 100% game completion, and it must break all existing records. In other words, it has to be the best of the best. And only two runs at maximum (any% and 100%) can reach this privileged top position.
The Moon tier should be the "dump for everything else". If a run does not qualify for the privileged position in the Vault, it might nevertheless be published by being relegated to Moons, where everything else is dumped as well. Getting to Moons is not a privilege; it's the dump where the run is thrown when it doesn't qualify for being the best of the best.
Just my opinion.
This is exactly why I think we should not use moon/vault tiering (I prefer categories of speed and entertainment primary goal). A TAS that aims for fastest time is not worse than one that aims for entertainment. They are in fact equal, but in different ways. Hiding the vault by default makes the speed categories look like they were put in the trash bin. Of course, the proposals for change belong in the vault tier discussion thread.
Mothrayas wrote:
For me, Hydlide was just boring to watch, and I based that on watching it before any of us knew for sure what tier it'd be in. A good majority of judges also agreed at the time that it had to go to the Vault (based on entertainment merit we collectively saw in it, instead of voter feedback). About half of the rating audience still seems to agree, having given it a below-par entertainment rating. I'm going to need to see better rating numbers than that before I really believe that the 80ish% of submission yes votes was actually indicative of people finding the run entertaining on a whole
Then remove the 80% threshold from the guidelines if it isn't being followed (my signature is appropriate). Actually, having one poll question doesn't work. It needs to be split into two questions, one for whether it should be published (optimized enough, etc.) and the other to ask about entertainment. That way a judge can read the entertainment better.
As for movie rating, we really need to improve the system (flow and make the rating values make sense, especially technical) to get people to rate movies. Right now there aren't really enough people movie voting (myself included) for the reasons above) for the values to make complete sense. I find it annoying that people will rate the popular games, but can't be bothered to rate other movies on the site.
Also with the movie rating and the entertainment poll question, I believe there is voting bias from if one likes or dislikes a game. Entertainment should be based on how the TAS plays the game, not the game itself.
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In the discussion thread for the Hydlide submission, the yes votes were almost unanimous before the decision was made. There was only 1 meh to 9 yes, and most of the yes vote posts, 6, mentioned entertainment.
As for the poll results, I noted in a post the day after the decision was made that it was at 89%, so it being at 82% now would be correct, and it would have been above 80% at the time of the decision.
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That's if you can count the votes as accurate. Are people voting on the game or how the TAS plays the game? Also are they voting it down because it is in Vault and therefore should get a low rating?
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RPG games are rather lacking, so I recommend http://tasvideos.org/1482M.html Dragon Warrior [1], which is short, and shows how a normally long RPG can be beat quickly using luck manipulation.
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This happened shortly before the submission:
<arandomgameTASer> HAHAHAHAHAHA
<dunnius> just got the joke from the other day? :D
[...]
<arandomgameTASer> oh you'll know what I'm laughing about. Real soon.
<arandomgameTASer> hahahahahahahahahaha
<arandomgameTASer> I seriously doubt this will be accepted
<arandomgameTASer> but I guess we'll see, eh
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1) Unfortunately the oxygen tank is required because there is no way to use rations in the deep water.
2) Dying removes any items gained since the last checkpoint, so no.
3) Rank 4 is required to obtain the rocket launcher and the compass.
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I would love it if SNES9X 1.53 had the TASing tools that 1.51 had, especially lua which 1.52 took out for some reason. I would prefer using what I've always used, but also because it runs good in WINE unlike Bizhawk.
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For technical, how am I supposed know how much work went into the TAS? It is very hard to tell, even from reading submission comments. It doesn't make sense.
And it doesn't make it clear how to rate, which leads to inconsistent ratings.
