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emu
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Joined: 1/2/2007
Posts: 188
Location: Germany, Munich
Ok, I continued the test run. Now the movie is at the beginning of Stair Wars. I actually managed to kill Wooden Dresser before the ballerina dress (with a lot of luck and tries). I will comment everything later, first the movie file: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3427/Dynamite%20Headdy%20by%20Emu%20%28UE%29%20%5Bc%5D%5B%21%5D.gmv btw: I hope, Trusk didn't start yet, because I found an improved general strategy for some hangmans and possible improvement for Mad Dog. More soon… :) EDIT: Now, the comments: General: Hangman: There are several hangmans, which must be used to proceed, but don't give the perfect boost in the direction you need (for example when you first have to pull them to you, or to reach higher platforms). But when passing the hangman You can often grab him from many direction (example: you pull yourself up with a hangman, then when you can shoot again, you shoot down-left -> head grabs hangman from top right while the body is below the hangman -> Headdy gets pulled right and up). I did not use this in Toys in the Hood. So I guess some more frames can be saved. Mad Dog: In my run, before he jumps up, I jump, too, but don't shoot because Mad Dog would be out of reach. However, some seconds before I walk for some frames. Maybe the jumping (which means jumping whenever Headdy lands) can be started some frames earlier, thus be able to hit him one more time. Not tested, just an assumption. Luck manipulation: As far as I could figure it out, frame number and jumping with shooting upwards manipulate luck (amongst others). The run: Clothes encounter: As seen in the movie, Wooden Dresser can be destroyed before the ballerina dress. However, it is not easy to pull off (I hit her the last possible frame). Like the final shot in Backstage Battle, the shot for the dragon head (I assume it is this shot) needs to be at the right moment, not the earliest moment. Maybe the heart has to become vulnerable, when she starts to make the walking animation. Other things to mention: To shoot clothing off, beau first has to point at them. It seems, that the first one can only be right foot or body (manipulated by shootjump). The order of the rest can be frame manipulated. The shorter the way for beau the faster it is. Little guessing game: What rhythm do I knock before score calculation (hint: next level :) ) Terminate her too: Not easy level. You have to think in advance, what point to reach to proceed (horizontal movement, vertical movement, shoot something, health calculation, etc…) -The first damage taking saves only some two or three frames -hitting poles early is more important than proceeding right -bug: if you hit the last pole very early, the wheel bogs/sinks into the floor, thus sometimes being too low to jump off (seen in movie) -on the second hangman the described strategy (see above) is used -not running far one the edge of the screen seems to make Headcase appear 5 frames earlier -I do not take the hammerhead, because it needs extra time and sometimes creates bad stairs, but there are many possibilities, so I'm not very sure -like Arrow said: three Happy Campers are enough and manipulated tank to shoot straight first (jumpshooting) -jumped on weird looking thing as seen in upthorn's movie -not jumping for banana, because pit jump delays two frames and treatmill speeds Headdy up Mad Mechs1: -I use upthorn's route, since it seems to be the fastest, however, not at the last wheel, which actually costs me some 10 frames :) -> I recommend his way Mad Mechs2: -also here, I use a similar route, but with slight variations. The blue crosses are the glitchiest things in the game that I encountered so far. They boost you to the screen edge and teleported me a half screen up, which does not help very much, since I needed horizontal speed at that moment :) Heathernapped: Arrrgh, … after uploading I realized, that I wasted some 80 frames, because I didn't cancel beau with start, but with C… This will be changed in my next upload after defeating Spinderella Summary: Not an easy scene, thus not perfect, but hopefully helpful.
emu
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Joined: 1/2/2007
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@upthorn I'm sorry for having posted several times in a row. I will edit instead. Thanks for the information about uploading. I don't want to delete the files, but I did not know if I had to in order not to use too much webspace. I did some more route planning. Here is the movie until the middle of the wooden dresser fight. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3398/Dynamite%20Headdy%20by%20Emu%20%28UE%29%20%5Bc%5D%5B%21%5D.gmv
although it did occur to me that getting around the invisible wall in Down Under/not having to jump in the pit might not even save any time since you still have to wait for the platform to align at the end.
Unfortunately you're right. I didn't consider this in my test run. After using a rather fast route, there are still about 85 frames missing to get to the spot at the earlier alignment. Possible time savers are: - somehow trigger the start of the floor movement later - optimise the fight with the flying soldiers - overcome invisible wall - find better way than jumping in pit (stops motion for some frames) However, imo even achieving all this things will not save 85 frames. So we would have some free time in this level to do other stuff (fetching SBP and life, destroying everything, …) The fight with Trouble Bruin is a little tricky. Dolls and mainly Headcase are often in the way. Also when you are pulled below the floor you can't shoot him for a while. Optimising this battle is important, since on some occasions one or two frames were missing to hit him early. The battle is short enough, so head renewing is not needed. A lot of planning will be necessary for the last shot: Three factors are important: -after explosion Headdy needs to be low enough, since he bounces some two or three times, the higher he falls, the higher he bounces, thus wasting time -after the explosion Headdy has to be far one the right side, because after the bounces he will slowly jump right. If he covered already some distance he leaves the level earlier -I don't know what the third is (maybe luck or the whole situation together), but something more seemed to affect the end. If I had hit him one frame earlier or later, he would have left the level some 50 frames later. The fight against Puppeteer and Jim needs some planning, too. Some things to know: Since hitting the Puppeteer is harder (and You get a SBP:) ), I suggest, like in upthorn's movie, to hit him first. A good strategy was to jump between them, to minimize head recovery time (main issue). For the tas you have to keep in mind that You can prolong your hangtime by being hit midair. After some frames you will still be able to shoot your head. After the fight you can see, that I try to have max speed when leaving the level. However it seemed not to affect the time the curtain begins to fall.
Do some experimenting on Clothes Encounters. I've been able to defeat Wooden Dresser without having her switch to the ballerina costume. It involved waiting around for a long time before I knocked the last piece of the dragon costume off, and then she jumped into the air and landed again with her heart still vulnerable, giving me just enough time to kill her before she jumped again. It was slower than the normal way, and I wasn't able to consistently reproduce it, but it might be possible for you to manipulate this to happen without as much waiting.
Thanks for your info about the wooden dresser strategy. I know what you mean, I remember such behaviour little bit, but as you can see in my test run, I could not trigger it. I start to believe, that this only happens when she has that ballerina dress, since it is one of her attacks to jump and fall on you. By undressing her right before the jumps you can already hit her, but she comes again, still vulnerable. I guess the dragon has to jump too, to trigger this, but until now she doesn't want to jump :) Maybe someone can check on this. I found another little improvement for the Level Toys in the Hood: In my test run I don't use the first hangman after getting the superhead, because I though the boost would not be enough to reach the grass. After watching upthorn's movie I saw, that it is possible, when you don't touch the wall too much, since it slows you down.
emu
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Active player (380)
Joined: 1/2/2007
Posts: 188
Location: Germany, Munich
Ok, here is quick overview about the most important time savers: - made with frame advance and 1000 rerecords (the other 4000 were cut off) - the first hangman was tough: You need a horizontal boost, therefore You have to backtrack a little to the left, so hangman pulls You to the right, the second hangman didn't save very much, but the third did (found this route by trying. I don't know if there is a better one) - getting hit by the red soldier saves a lot of time (I'm sorry, but there are just to many occasions, where damage taking saves time, so I propose a non-"takes no damage"-movie). Since Headdy is always falling into the other direction than he is facing, going backwards into the soldier is faster. He turns around on the third frame after pushing in the other direction, the later the better) -after the next two hangmans You have to jump over a pit. Triggering acceleration at last possible moment where he still lands on the platform gives him the most speed - with super head: using the second and third hangman is faster than jumping -touching the right wall when descending seems to slow you down - a big problem is that super headdy is too fast for his head to return properly, so planning where to shoot (diagonally up when jumping, diagonally down when falling) and shooting the closest part of the cage (sometimes the corner) saves recovery time of the head - the cactus seems to be hit twice, when hit very early - small headdy's path is faster compared to upthorn's fight with the snake (which seems to be actually pretty optimised) - Oh, me and my big mouth! The secret path needs actually some 30 frames more than Trask's route, so I chose his one. - Shoot Hangman at the first possible moment and jump, so he already covered some distance - Despite the narrow passages Headdy can jump for some frames. So jump to shoot here, too - when falling go left and right on the first moment when he does not hit the corner anymore. So Headdy already has a horizontal speed, when entering the passage I'm only human, so I make mistakes, too. Beside the improvements I didn't see these are the parts which I think are the most improvable: -finding a better route on the beginning -descending to the cage -shooting the cage -shooting the cactus and horse and landing afterwards -horizontal speed after the first long drop (small Headdy) -shooting at Mad Dog in the beginning (saving frames here would be good, since I cannot hit him one time, because I do not have enough time (only some 5 frames perhaps)) -finding a way to overcome the invisible wall in Down Under -finding a way not to have to jumo into the pit -strategy for flying soldiers PS: When uploading a new movie, what happens with the old one? Can or should I delete the old one? Or is this not necessary due to their small size?
emu
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Active player (380)
Joined: 1/2/2007
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Here it is. The first levels of Dynamite Headdy until the Flying soldiers of Down under. I stopped there, as I realized I had do redo my strategy to reach the next soldier earlier. Plus I was not satisfied with the fact, that even jumping in the pit could not prevent losing time. I needed a little longer, because I was jogging and now I definitely need a shower. So I try to comment things later. It's still not perfect, but helps to show what I meant (plus improvement of 282 frames = 4,7 sec). Activating "show input" in general options enables You to see what is pressed. PS: I took the beginning from my earlier Headdy movie. Sorry for the numerous senseless shots at Troulbe Bruin. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3390/Dynamite%20Headdy%20by%20Emu%20%28UE%29%20%5Bc%5D%5B%21%5D.gmv
emu
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Joined: 1/2/2007
Posts: 188
Location: Germany, Munich
that's the spirit! I'm really looking forward to this movie! I'm currently working on small tas to show what I mean, since it is hard to explain here. I'm at the point where I get the super head and I am already 100 frames ahead by trying over and over with frame advance. However I also take damage (actually the main time saver). When it's done I'll upload it. I try to do this in the next hour. I'm trying hard, but I can't do it faster.
emu
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Joined: 1/2/2007
Posts: 188
Location: Germany, Munich
Good movie. You seem to understand most physics of the game. However it is yet not optimised. I have not much time, because my lectures will start in some minutes. Your movie is 5 frames behind mine (Headdy contacts floor in practice area at frame 2900 (me) and 2905 (You)), maybe You did not hit Trouble Bruin at the first possible moment. But You are 283 frames ahead ofupthorn (score calculation after Mad Dog 16404 (upthorn) 16121 (You)). I don't know how good the first movie of a game has to be, but the better it is, the longer it won't be obseleted. Possible improvements: -Not optimised use of Hangman (he can boost your horizontal speed). -Path planning (upthorn did some fancy hangman jumping, maybe that's a good route). -Precise Jumping (after getting super head: better jumps over the edges, clinging to the right wall while falling stops your horizontal movement after wall -> time wasted in accelerating). -The secret pass I mentioned earlier in the small Headdy passage: after the first long fall You can enter the wall to the left. Maybe it saves time (maybe not) However, I might be wrong and scene 2 is not more improvable. I don't want to slow You down, but prevent the movie from being rejected after all the work.
emu
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Joined: 1/2/2007
Posts: 188
Location: Germany, Munich
I'm sure there will be places where taking damage will save time - I can take a few good knocks against DD so that I can Hammer head him, I'm sure.
imo the battles with baby face, Dealer Wheeler and maybe Dark Demon will most likely include damage taking to save time. Did You already start the tas?
I'm not sure about Stair Wars - I'll have to look into it. I'm not sure if it's possible to manipulate him or if his pattern is just chosen when you enter the level. I'll go check that now. EDIT: Yep, he can definitely be manipulated into 100% charging!
That's good news and a big time saver. But I hope that doesn't mean, that You are already in Stair Wars without uploading parts of the movie before. If we find mistakes so late afterwards a lot of work would be wasted. Just in case You didn't know: You can upload movies here: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php
emu
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Active player (380)
Joined: 1/2/2007
Posts: 188
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At the end credits it does indeed come up with "You got X/4 Secret Numbers" and despite trying all possible combinations, I was unable to cheat my way into the bonus boss battle - so unfortunately that's out. It may be different in the (U) version but I doubt that.
Finally this mystery is solved. Thanks for the work. The question is now, if the bonus stages should be done. But I think tas rules won't like this. In the meanwhile I did a little homework: - The HP differences of (J) and (U) were edited in my last comment. - About the frames after the boss: The autorunning to the right spot does not cost extra time. However, if he has to come from the right side one frame is wasted in turning around to face right -> always run left pass the spot after piece collection, so he reaches the spot from the left -> no turning around. Upthorn was right about the pieces. Score calculation is not triggered, when they are of the screen. But collecting just very few seemed to cause a delay of one frame. Thanks to upthorn for his movie. It made figuring out these things much easier and faster.
emu
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Joined: 1/2/2007
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I tried most bosses of the (J) Version and compared their health with the numbers of the FAQ of Minty Fresh Death ( http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/genesis/file/dynamite_headdy_b.txt) and got always the same numbers (except for TwinFreaks, where I were something around 30, what will pretty surely be 34 (2x17 of the (U) Version), but try counting, while fighting this boss :) ) I did NOT compare: Sky Battleship, Wheeler Dealer, Baby Face, Gatekeeper, Nasty Gatekeeper, Dark Demon, Hitmen (secret final scene), Boss (secret final scene) because I hate their levels (Scene 6,7 and final scene). However I don't expect any difference here, too. I tried bombing MonsMeg three times, but the bomb does not destroy him/her at once. Damage calculation was the same (24HP (start) - 8HP (bomb) = 16HP). I assume that Nasty Gatekeeper won't be destroyed by one bomb, too. I agree with Arrow, about doing the bonus levels, if the digits have to be obtained that way. However my ability to judge this is influenced by that fact, that I really like this game. I would have even wanted to see an all SBP run, but I understand, that most people would get bored. @Arrow Awesome, maybe a Dynamite Headdy-veteran like You can be helpful. EDIT: Ok, I checked on Gatekeeper and Dark Demon just to see that I was wrong. They actually do have less HP in the Japanese Version. While they both have 17 HP in the (U) Version, in the Japanese Version they have 9 HP (about Gatekeeper I'm not sure, might also be 8 HP, but more likely 9HP). %&§!#%&!! One time ever, that I'm so sure about something and than I was wrong :). Still I'd prefer the U Version. Maybe someone else checks for the flying scene and final secret scene bosses. I could not find a state save for the secret scene. EDIT: I finally tried the flying scenes, too. But the numbers are not very meaningful, since I miscounted very often and the HPs seem to vary very much (for example Baby Face's first form sometimes needed 33 another time 42 hits to split, Wheeler Dealer can be hit even when he is already beaten, because he first goes in the middle of the screen and then in the background, the Battleship won't fall until the dark clouds are passed). In the Japanese Version the wire needs more than 800 frames longer to fetch the battleship (the only thing that is for sure). Before falling it flashed ("got hit") 92 (J) and 107 (U) times respectively. Wheeler Dealer flashed 72 (J) and 110 (U) times. Frames to kill Baby Face (grandpa spilt): 7325 (J), 6981 (U). Conclusion: There would be several tests needed to see if there is a HP variation in the two roms. If this is not the case, it might still be that the flying scenes need to be a lot luck manipulated. PS: I forgot to mention: While testing the HP of Dark Demon and Nasty Gatekeeper, the GK reacted differently after loading states, but the DD did not change his pattern. -> GK can be manipulated, DD not (maybe with different frame numbers, I think after the Finagler chase (Far Treck), You can control Headdy -> You can determine the start frame of Finale Analysis)
emu
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I tested it and You were right about Hard Mode: You don't get killed by pits. However I have to agree with Arrow, there might be occasions, where taking damage can save time (I'm thinking of the baby of Baby Face, where You normally shoot from the left and pretty often get hit by one of these balls). And it would be a shame, if after so much work You would have to realise, that You to needed take damage. I would not take away that option. But that's just me... btw: Arrow, You said Trouble Bruin rammed You four times? Did YOU make that awesome speedrun on Speed Demo archive? If yes: congrats on the flying level, I was shaking :) @Trask Good idea with collecting 3 digits. Saves You a LOT of work. However, I don't agree with the (J)-Rom idea yet. I'll try to test it out, but I remember that there were many dialogs which will cost You time. The (really helpful) FAQ on gamefaqs.com would have mentioned it, if Bosses would be easier. Like Arrow already said: Twin Freaks has even double health. But I can't say more until I know for sure, so I don't want to decrease Your motivation. I'm glad someone does it! @Trask and upthorn I'm not sure, if You noticed it, but it seems upthorn found a little glitch: Moving always on the edge of the screen in Mad Mechs 2 (I'm not sure which stage; the one with the fans, and blue crosses) seemed to enable You to leave the stage earlier (maybe a quarter screen). Maybe I'm wrong and it is not a glitch, however, at normal speed, You have to go a little bit further.
emu
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- in scene 2-2(Toys in the Hood), after fighting Catherine Derigueur, the way splits up. Going the lower path saves more than 100 frames, if You go left into the secret path afer the long fall Are you sure about that? my fight with the dragon is far from optimized, and I recall using the small head being very, very slow
I tried it again and using the lower route WITH the secret path (left into wall after long drop) the curtain started to lower at frame 13897 (unotimized). In The movie it falls at 14058. So the number of frames gain is under 100, sorry for exaggerating.
I entered the hard mode code (hard mode codes are one of the exceptions to the no cheat code rule), so any hit from an object is instant death.
Ok, now I understand ;) But actually it seems, like the code didn't work, since in mad mechs Headdy loses health. Thanks for clearing me up on the boss pieces and laser issue, now I know.
I did that long before Gens had a RAM viewer, so I'm sure that it can be manipulated better.
O_O I didn't know what use that tool has. Sorry for that nooby question, but where can I read how to use that RAM viewer and what it does?
emu
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Nice run, upthorn I liked the mad mech stages most of all. Some things I noticed: - in scene 2-2(Toys in the Hood), after fighting Catherine Derigueur, the way splits up. Going the lower path saves more than 100 frames, if You go left into the secret path afer the long fall - I think there might be some places were taking damage could save time (jumping into the Pit in down under, skippinkg the wheels in terminate her too(?)) - I'm not sure, but I think score calculation is triggered, when there are no more pieces of the boss, so maybe it saves time to focus on the last chunk (or whatever these things are :) ) which is released - like I already mentioned, after a Boss battle, positioning Headdy on the right spot prevents him from going there, which might waste time - since I'm especially interested in the luck manipulation of the game, I would like to know, if there would have been no way to manipulate Trouble Bruin in Stair Wars to always ram You instead of cutting pieces out of the tower - in the flying scenes, the laser is not a steady stream. Maybe (hopefully not), You have to shoot at the right moment to hit bosses after the invincibility time instead of holding the B-button (mainly while in backward movements) - Yes, it would be very interesting, if You can enter the secret code without completing the bonus stages, but it would be much work to enter ten thousand different combinations :) specially since intuitional I think it is not possible ;) I'm really looking forward to Your run, good luck
emu
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I already tried a tas with getting all secret points and digits, but got stuck after 5 minutes in the practice area of beau, because I could't find a proper way to manipulate him. If it is of any help I can upload it. A run without collecting this extra stuff will be much easier. Since headdy is not a fast character You will have to focus more on battling and coordinating his head. Here some basic things, just in case You didn't know: -headdy stops running when You shoot on the ground, so You should jump before shooting - since his head becomes slowlier when it is the farest away, it sometimes saves a frame to shoot later and make headdy run the distance - headdy moves faster when he pulls himself to a hangman. If push in a direction after passing hangman, he won't keep the speed. So waiting some frames is better - many actions like jumping, ducking and shooting have a delay of a frame, so if you want to shoot, jump, etc. You have do push the botton earlier - frame number, facing directions and moving seem to manipulate luck - position headdy at the right spot after a boss fight, or he will run there before point calculation - point calculation can be skipped by start (3 times) - no glitches known to me (only the one from the speedrun from speeddemosarchive, which freezes the game after the end) (sorry for my English, but I'm from Germany) good luck EDIT: uploaded movie: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3366/headdybyemu.gmv
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