Commenting on the mockup, there are good reasons to have a screenshot on a per-TAS basis, or at least in your mockup on a per-branch basis (obsoleted ones need not apply for this display).
I think obsoleted movies should be included for completion's sake and to make people aware of obsoleted yet interesting runs.
I meant solely on screenshot-display that nonobsolete runs get them and obsolete ones not, for the "one game display" method.
I don't see how you're supposed to find "obsolete but interesting" movies in your suggestion any more than presently.
you seem to be fixated on AC, which is relatively irrelevant
Probably because I'm in that "can ascend sometimes" bracket; AC is more important than HP in normal runs pretty much the whole game, since it reduces the damage you take from attacks as well as preventing you getting hit.
Probably because I use E only rarely.
So:
How many points is Demogorgon worth? I wonder if it's possible to hit MAXINT score before turn 2000. Probably not.
Anyway, doing something normally 'unwise' on the penultimate move (if it doesn't make the turn counter advance) would be interesting, at least if it dumped like NAO games did. Angering a god (and surviving) to get the "I believe it not!" message on the high altar would make for a good screenshot at least.
If it were even remotely possible I'd suggest ascending with one or more woodchuck pets; however I do not think it is.
Oh! I know what you can do to be entertaining. Manipulate one of the dungeon levels to generate looking like a word. (Probably use a MMap scroll on it.)
Discussion in the latest Pokémon submissions inspired me to create another (and better) example pic.
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/4324/tasv.png
To sum it up, this makes everything more tidy, more structured and more pleasant visually. This links movies and movie history nicely together. You can fill such a site with a dozen categories without problems (might get rid of the "we have too many categories" problem partially). You can fill such a page with WIPs too.
Commenting on the mockup, there are good reasons to have a screenshot on a per-TAS basis, or at least in your mockup on a per-branch basis (obsoleted ones need not apply for this display).
Brainstorming:
Regarding the general question at hand, is it possible to have the generic system list filter to null-branch-name only?
- As another option, you simply mark one branch as the 'main' branch with a tag, possibly not shown, restricting the 'system' listing to showing main branches only.
Then, one needs to detect if other branches exist, and possibly supply a link to something like that mockup from there.
It seems (and likely isn't) simple to filter to a particular game. The Pokémon TASes are an adequate example of why it wouldn't be, what with GRYB versions.
Using the current system, simply adding additional tags for, say, series seems like it could be useful. (Have you tried using the search system to find Rockman/Megaman TASes recently?)
Nitsuja has already said what I think needs saying regarding direct copying of input- it can save time, and it can lose (game)time.
Also, the potential of achieving the same or better time with different 'style' or better entertainment (consider the score-combos in Castlevania(NES), inputs on JXQ-100% Super Metroid, Mister's SMW (any%? I forget which had the input artistry)).
I've progressed back into the Clocktower. I was rather amused at the results; both this new attempt and my old attempt had the Red Door turn red on frame 26311.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Red Door?
...the marching-ants glow around the zone-connector door into the Clocktower, then?
edit: Demon mail, too small a boost too late?
Saves were most likely for luck manipulation purposes. The Random number generator is a fixed table, that repeats.
Normally you can't get teleport this early in the game. IN this case, he seems to have plenty of teleport Items, and uses them to save time.
Looks to me like he used the character-change glitch to get to level A monsters, then ate meats until having a Giant, which gets Teleport, rather than using Doors.
#37,#77,#B7,#F7 - 2nd command ends a battle forcibly.
It also appears to revive and restore to full health all party members. I'm suspecting debug command with normal access removed. It seems a little too convenient otherwise. (That one pointer in the not-supposed-to-be-jobs area can point to it is plausible, of course.)
It is hilarious that its overworld sprite is a Fake Light Warrior.
Are there any battles that permit fleeing, yet have different scripts run depending on whether you run or win? I'm curious how this 'force-end' command works on that, if any.
There goes the "cannot defeat Stom the first try" theory. And it was as simple as 'move back and forth'??
What's with the Save+reset immediately after the Fire Sword? It doesn't have a clear benefit...though my memory suggests that it's so you can skip the Flame Ball yet (glitch) to have L2 shots with which to blow down icewalls. This in turn tells me why you wait until after Kelbesque to grab the prison key- the Flame Bracelet means you don't need to reglitch your sword to knock down the ice walls. Am I right here?
The rabbit boots were meant to be abused this way (Mt. Sabre West, among others). Those of us who played before just wish we could do it TAS-well.
In levels where you need to refill the magnet beam, might it be faster to get a Yashichi to (with a Delay glitch) drop?
It doesn't give a count-up animation, and it refills everything.
This would also potentially mean more Magnet Beam abuse in various levels.
Looks good to me, though the hatspin is the least entertaining if fastest of the dance moves that I remember.
I can't say that I know if it's with the "official" version, but the character portraits seem different than I remember- actually having normal skin with their different suits.
Here's [Yes vote] for you!
Raiding vaults and levelling back down to 1 so you can racket somewhere might be one thing to do. Then eating some rings of protection?
Get some of the remaining intrinsics. Magic Breathing and Telepathy seem like the important ones. (The main use for Magic Breathing being not-caring about gorging yourself.)
Polymorphing some nondirectional wands (with max 15 charges manipulated) into death wands would be potentially useful, particularly for breaking them (240 damage to living nondemons, area).
ais523 wrote:
What we've done since, is to teleport to a shop on dungeon level 16 to pick up a magic lamp (used for a spellbook of detect monster,
Is that actually faster than manipulating the book to drop? After all, the only useful things you cannot get without wishing are other quest-arts. And only polymorph and wish stuff is what you can't polypile beyond that.
Speaking of, Eyes of the Overworld might be a good idea, though Detect Monsters will be more useful once you hit that. Slotless MR - though I guess you don't actually want that, since you'll be jumping into polytraps and levelporters!
What's the inventory look like now anyway?
Are rings of protection edible this game?
Does confused PYEC-invocation charge you up like the scroll would?
lessee..29*135 = 3915. Might want to boost your Pw some more? Probably not, since the Amulet is unlikely to worst-case every Jumping.
Fountains are not infinite wish engines hmm, the wiki does not mention whether it respects extinction of water demons, and I'm not familiar enough with the code to check.
Entertainment
Are wands of wishing edible this game?
Cleaning out Ludios in your spare time could boost entertainment value. While expert attack spells would probably be fastest, disintegration-breath would probably be a better, more-accessible alternative. (Manipulating the dragons to do it themselves?)
cursed scroll of teleport and use it to get all the way down to the Castle, skipping the entire early- and mid-game. (This isn't quite a sequence break because I'm pretty sure it's deliberate that you can do that.)
Since they did code two exceptions, stopping you at the Valley of the Dead and the Vibrating Square level, it's very sure that straight-to-Castle should be possible.
You have watched some of maud's (and nht's) ttyrecs on nethack.alt.org, right? The ones finishing in the 2100-2400 range? Should be instructive in some tactics.
Incidentally, I thought of a reason to want to get hit over not- "hits!" and "hits." are both shorter than "misses." This will, in combat-heavy situations, potentially lead to times where you can avoid a more-prompt.
On the flip side, you can probably avoid any and all more-prompts by playing with very large terminal size, and being hit or missed presumably affects RNG usage by whether damage is calculated. (I have not looked at the source for this, so this last is mere conjecture.)
Restful sleep would not be the most efficient way to not-act during turns, either. Cursory examination looks like bouncing sleep rays (wands/spell) is best with maximum potential of 300 turns. (Properly figuring out the Wis<12 duration of floating eyes would be good, as well as sleep-wand explosions,)
To ease luck-manipulation, get massive intrinsic protection.
What's the best way of doing this? Traditionally, one goes to ludios and loots it for all it's worth, but ludios is probably boring and time-consuming in realtime (all those messages) and turns. I think it's a choice between an early-game protection racket, eating rings of protection, or both.
Since you're going to be grabbing a huge stack of rings from a ringshop, =oProt are likely going to be faster. It occurs to me that you can pick up a (near) full set of resistances this way too. Restful sleep might save you some actions in the first 2000 turns (for a low-actions run, reducing it below 2000) but would require an air-elemental taxi or similar to not lose them back going through the Planes.
T-itis and vaults for a protection run work fine too.
So, getting the Mitre of Holiness, the Eye of the Aethiopica, and/or the Orb of WeightFate (you will probably drop this prior to turn 2000)
The eye is the wizard's quest artifact, so no getting that before turn 2000.
When pressing "A","A-B" Wheel Kirby will perform a high jump while going into wheel mode.
1. Doesn't need to be done so quickly, though this would be optimal- transformations simply stop gravity while occurring.
2. works with Tornado as well
Driving as far as possible before transforming back and then jumping with A,AB or A,(other direction)A,AB is better in most cases to gain more horizontal distance. Why would I need to jump sooner? A,A,AB already can't reach 8-block tall places whereas A,AB can (A,A,A,A,A... AB will therefore lose even more vertical distance). Tornado is mostly useless, as also in other Kirby games due to its fixed time span.
Simply a comment that it's usable in realtime, really.
Editing with content:
2-1: No Animal scroll? I could see it being useful a few places...
2-3: Are you sure doing this circuitous route with wheel beats taking Animal for that dirt room, accounting for that you need to pick up the scroll to drill-dig?
You need to use the drill dig move several times. You need to become Animal Kirby and then Wheel Kirby again, wasting ability bubbles or time (if you use the item bug). The transformation time already is ~50 frames long. Due to these facts I found going the other way with Wheel would end up faster.
6-1: This is the other point the Animal scroll would be useful. And neither instance costs you a bubble, as you already switched to Hammer.
For this point I found Wheel to be faster than transforming and digging again, but from testing it now, I must admit that it is worth testing.
The thing you're missing is that you become Hammer and then non-bug return to Wheel on your way out, so you weren't going to save the bubble anyway. So, you waste no bubbles (but some time- one transform each) by ditching Hammer after killing the animal boss, swallowing him, and then switching to Wheel after the relevant digging is done. Unfortunately the Sword scroll is later so you can't Fire-sword through instead.
And it's an OK form of movement, though worse than Fire. Just remember to face the opposite direction of where you want to go after you're going down so the bounce works with you.
Fighter-spinkick is decent as well, and ninja-downkick to slide (i.e. charging B) is also pretty good
3-2: ah, luck manipulation of Doc's landing!
Not really. He somehow either lands on the first half of the room or the second half, depending where the screen currently is. Hitting him a bit later makes him land on the latter place.
Funny, I usually fireball him and he lands in the middle. Or so I recall.
3-3: Interesting, didn't know you could bounce off a block with Wheel.
-High-wheel-jumping slower in vertical ascent room?
Lost 16 frames >_<
I assume by the smiley you mean wheeljumping is 16 frames faster here.
4-2: Why does one metal-guy get hit three times and others two?
Because of the slope.
Movement pattern at wrong point, as I know it's time-based from appearance+landing?
?
It was conjecture as to why the metalguy got hit more (and thus slowed you more); you answered the question. (Metal guys start rolling based on time after they've landed on floor...I think)
4-3: Why don't you jump over the first wheel enemy in the last room?
I don't know why I didn't. I lost 6 frames.
The sloped ceiling doesn't stop you.
4-boss: Interesting strategy. If I didn't know hammer to be utterly overpowered (alas that we have no Computer Virus boss in this game to give casual players damage numbers) I'd think that Bombsliding him might be faster. Might want to check anyway-
I don't see how Bomb would be faster than Hammer. Why bombsliding as opposed to 4 or 5 bomb drops?
It was just a thought; hammer is hard to use normally. Bombsliding looks nifty, and it has built-in recoil making it easier to spam non-TAS.
You have a good eye for possible improvements and ideas. Did you try TASing Squeak Squad at some point? :P
Currently I expect my TAS to be improvable by ~5 seconds, but probably more time can be saved yet.
I just played Extra Mode a fair chunk, so most of my route picks aren't useful here.
100% note: only two places where bringing in an ability actually shortens your path, scrolled spark into 5-2 (to shoot button through the slope rather than going around through the doors) and a post-hitting power into 6-3 (this one's obvious, the provided one is on a long loop detour). Should also work on the burn room in 4-2.
Also, most instances where the game sets up a Laser Room are better beaten with Wheel.
Odd tidbit: Any doubletap-direction powers really just require a "run-activating" direction press prior. Allows things like back+B to pounce forward (animal), if you're running forward, regardless of how long since you started running.
Ice+Cutter:
little delay in starting/stopping, good for downhill/uphill, great jumping ability (hard to control but nets good results), potential gap crossing with perfectly timed jumps, only hurts enemies when you jump
The ice spray from turning also hurts enemies, so tapping back will let you attack forward for a very short (possibly negligible, depending on how the accelerations are) speed hit.
Also, would getting the Mercury Boots speed it up any?
AFAIK, The effect of Mercury Boots is applied to walk only. It doesn't change the speed of backdash, Rapidus, dive kick, etc. I doubt whether it saves time. Anyway, thank you for your advice.
OTOH, moonwalkers do speed backdash. Unfortunately they are far too out of the way to be useful.
Just curious- for cancelling backdashes, how does jumping like in that WIP compare to using glyphs (Magnes and Confodere being best for this, I think?)
FWIW I would totally watch a playaround or superplay or whatever TAS of any Rush game's grand prix. The games had so many damn shortcuts everywhere that it seems like it wouldn't be too tricky to keep each lap interesting. Though I'm not sure how open to racing playarounds the site is. *shrug*
2049's the only one I have but I expect this sort of thing would be good.
Metal permits you to swim against currents. Including downward ones (though, to make progress upward fastest you need to cancel your upswim with a sideways one. Oddly, swimming diagonally up is faster than holding up normally, which actually loses you height). This may be of use in 7-1 for 100%.
Just thought I'd check in and see how progress is going Axe. Sometimes I think I might be the only person truly interested in this run, but I'm extremely anxious to see how you surprise me next.
Time for route planning for a (memory-corruption-)glitchless turncount run!
(snip)
Also, what isn't listed here that needs to be? I've almost certainly missed some things.
Light the candelabrum. Probably one of the last things you do before turn 2k, but still, you want to beforehand to be optimal.
Have sufficient food eaten to last to the end of the game. Unfortunately, as you're going to be eating rings, you won't be able to ascend foodless.
Maybegets:
Get teleportitis. Optionally, get teleport control, depending on how much luck-manipulation you want. (It won't be useful in a turns-TAS, as you'll have zero times after Quest you want to teleport that you couldn't have manipulated on your level change, optimally. But it will help if luck-manipulating your ascent landing locations is too slow for a time-TAS)
To ease luck-manipulation, get massive intrinsic protection.
To ease luck-manipulation, get a wand of teleport (mainly for Astral path-clearing)
Intrinsic conflict might save time, but mind your food.
What're you doing about Pw regeneration? It's ungodly slow for the most part, and the fastest methods (Mitre of Holiness, confused ? of Charging) aren't that convenient-luckmanipulating the Mitre's timeout seems like it would be best timewise, unless you can get convenient Umber Hulks and the like so you get a 1-move confusion just for reading that scroll to get your Pw back.
So, getting the Mitre of Holiness, the Eye of the Aethiopica, and/or the Orb of WeightFate (you will probably drop this prior to turn 2000)
In line with the thread, what was up with the brief (12 hour) period a few weeks ago when viewing submissions ability was removed from the non-logged-in?
When pressing "A","A-B" Wheel Kirby will perform a high jump while going into wheel mode.
1. Doesn't need to be done so quickly, though this would be optimal- transformations simply stop gravity while occurring.
2. works with Tornado as well
Editing with content:
2-1: No Animal scroll? I could see it being useful a few places...
2-3: Are you sure doing this circuitous route with wheel beats taking Animal for that dirt room, accounting for that you need to pick up the scroll to drill-dig?
2-5: I wasn't sure this was possible to do thanks to the enemies, so I liked it.
3-2: ah, luck manipulation of Doc's landing!
3-3: Interesting, didn't know you could bounce off a block with Wheel.
-High-wheel-jumping slower in vertical ascent room?
3-4 a minikirby. :-/ Extramoders' bane, a waste of inventory space.
3-Boss: And you losslessly get rid of it, bravo!
4-2: Why does one metal-guy get hit three times and others two? Movement pattern at wrong point, as I know it's time-based from appearance+landing?
4-3: Why don't you jump over the first wheel enemy in the last room? It would skip hitting it and the block (though if I read the planthread correctly blocks do not cause a hit-pause)
-Another minikirby; wonder how you'll deal with this one.
4-4: ah. Did you test getting this wheel bubble? Seeing as you never lacked a wheel, I expect it'd lose time, as it'd need to be faster than 10 frames to save time at Nebula, and faster than mixing lag to beat out what you did, so even that two-square detour is probably not worth it.
4-boss: Interesting strategy. If I didn't know hammer to be utterly overpowered (alas that we have no Computer Virus boss in this game to give casual players damage numbers) I'd think that Bombsliding him might be faster. Might want to check anyway-
5-3: The free hammer bubble in the Squeak lair is definitely of no use to you, and probably isn't to a 100% TAS either.
6-1: This is the other point the Animal scroll would be useful. And neither instance costs you a bubble, as you already switched to Hammer.
6-2: Level is too short for its relaxing music, really.
6-5: Interesting trick to ditch the Squeaks and valuable chests, which has served to my detriment a time or two. Does it just not work for Doc's room?
7-3: Oh wow you used metal. Unexpected, but nice!
7-boss: Didn't know he was vulnerable that early.
CONCLUSIONS: Enjoyable. Not sure if the lack of animal scroll is an error or not. As there is a Star Seal in 2-1 and you go right through the chest anyway, fanfare will not be added for collecting it, and it is not in a big chest, so no Squeak Squad sequence is increased, so I'm inclined to think it would save time enough to account for the mere two added ability transitions and slight square detour. The only issue I see on a quick recheck is whether you need the mixing in 2-2 of the M-tomato to manipulate something, otherwise there is plenty of inventory space.
The first level was very boring, but 4-1 is a lot more exciting with the Spinys raining down. 8-1 is a pure delight. 8-2 and 8-3 are in a league of their own. Playing with the Hammer Bros. is one of the most exciting things I've seen in a TAS.
Agree totally. The speed goal making this not available against Bowser is a slight disappointment.
Nach wrote:
Overall, I think this run provides a lot more entertainment than a standard 5 minute TAS of this game. In terms of meeting its defined goals it also does it well. For the goals in question, speed-wise, this movie will also be hard to beat.
Now the question is, does this deserve publication or not? There is a lot of time seemingly "wasted"
Wasted time + speed-wise difficult to beat would mean for me " wrong, no vote. " In this respect, both time and score goals can be beaten by using the continue feature, as early levels no longer need to be slow-run, and continuing would mean only the 300 points from the world 8 flagpoles is kept.
In this respect I almost feel a level-select to world 8 would be preferable.
"A run for a proposed new branch for a game should offer compelling differences relative to previously published runs of that game.". I think that is undeniable fact in this case.
Agreed. This run is sufficiently different in everything but 1-2 4-2 and 8-4.
If we cut out the "perfect" parts of the run such as 1-2, 4-2, and 8-4, we're left with levels which need to "waste time" and provide a lot of entertainment. If we can put 1-1, and the slow parts of 4-1 in one movie, and the rest of it in another movie, I think we'd have a consensus to reject the former and accept the latter as a playaround.
I am about at "meh" on 1-1/4-1 (and the speed levels, though I was surprised at pipe-access to 678 warp) but at a strong "yes" for world 8.
I don't think I can put my finger on either side of the scale you find yourself on, aside from pointing out the "no-deaths" goal as somewhat arbitrary. If I had noticed the music dancing (I watched the youtube encode) I would probably vote yes.
(aside)...quoting that initial post makes for some odd code(/aside)
