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Though there are some benefits of skipping the high jump too:
The first hot room in norfair can be completed without highjump boots using a very precise walljump. Even though this may be slower, the difference is probably negligible.
The second hot room in norfair should be much faster without the highjump boots. You can walljump off the first platform/rock formation and not hit the ceiling. This saves time because you can land all the way down to the missile pack without landing on any of the platforms above.
The room before the wave beam will also be much faster without the highjump, because you can clear the entire gap above the spikes without hitting the ceiling.
This same logic might save time in the green gate room when leaving norfair too.
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The getting of the high jump early or later will really need a lot of testing. You are correct that the entire grapple beam area will suffer without the high jump.
Getting the red brinstar PB pack has some pros and cons to consider:
- Getting the pack will be marginally slower without the speed booster
- Getting the pack will also be slower because you will not be able to blow away the back wall as early as normal, because you will not have the power bombs until you pick them up right then and there.
- The entire red binstar fall sequence can be put into this run using the charge beam and bomb spread, which will save some time.
As for croco, I was referring to using the PB wave combo on him, as seen in the obsoleted RBO run.
Overall I am pretty confident that getting the red brinstar pack early is the fastest of the 2 options. However I am still not sold that it is faster than doing norfair without the varia. Will stopping at the pipe bugs 3 times really eat up 15 seconds? I am definitely leaning towards doing Kraid early at this point. I want this run to show something that the other runs do not, and the current RBO run shows us the varialess norfair already.
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40 in-game seconds? I got a much different number than that.
Measuring JXQ's run:
From norfair elevator to the crack in the ground in the powerbomb room in kraids area and back from the crack in the ground in the powerbomb room to the norfair elevaor, I got roughly 14.5 in-game seconds.
Then I would add roughly 4-5 seconds to that for not having the speed booster on the first entry in kraid's area.
A net difference of 20 in-game seconds.
---------------
I also tested the time it takes to get the powerbomb in red brinstar early, and that is a 15.5 second detour. The time lost from not having the speedbooster in kraid's area would be identical in either case. So the question is whether or not having the power bombs early can save the 1-2 seconds of time that is lost by going to red brinstar first.
Power bombs would save time in many areas:
The first room in kraid's area. Exiting and entering.
The spazer area may save a few frames with power bombs.
The green bubble room would be a really big timesaver.
Croco fight would benefit from having the PB combo to use on him.
High jump area would also benefit, though high jump boots may be collected after crocomire since we already have the varia suit.
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I just wanted to chime in and say that this is a great new policy. Finally with the advent of SNEShawk, there really is no longer a need to support Snes9x. Kudos to all the staff and programmers involved in making this happen!
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Does anyone think that the new 100% run should use the old route (kraid before speedbooster), instead of the route used in CP's run (speedbooster before kraid)? For the purpose of ingame time, I am starting to think the old route may be faster. Time is lost by having to backtrack for the powerbomb in kraid's area later in the run, and time is also lost by not having speed booster in kraid's area. The obvious gain here is that there would be zero slow downs when getting the speed booster, wave beam, and on route to croco. There would be no time spent on the pipe bugs or on the reserve tank filling/unloading. Also getting the high jump after croco then becomes an option, and that too may save time.
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lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
Holy shit thanks Reeve, I really appreciate it!!! You really didn't have to do all that.
Snufflimz wants to know if you guys want button inputs in the video?
Also Hero any luck finding that Grapple Beam .smv file you mentioned before?
Edit:
Hero did you mean the trick Taco and Kroile did? The one when they tried to glitch through the ceiling, but it didn't work?
Edit 2:
This???
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1722489105/Maridia%20Check.smv
I don't have an smv of it, but it uses the morph/unmorph technique after releasing the grapple beam when under water to gain vertical height. This was done in our RBO run with the grapple beam in several of the maridia rooms. The application in the 100% run would simply be to gain faster vertical height through the grapple block hole that disappears and you would normally jump through.
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Another trick I remembered from a long time ago was the grapple beam trick near the spring ball. Using the grapple beam to scale upwards after making the grapple block disappear.
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Yes, that would be a great addition as well. I almost forgot about that trick. It's pretty crazy to think how many new strategies can be added to the 100% run.
lxx4xNx6xxl,
Do you know if snuffilmz will be uploading this to youtube?
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I think saturn's gt code run includes the new pirate strategy. As for the other ones, I will try to see if I still have them, though I thought they were posted on this thread somewhere.
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Very cool compilation video. Its a great idea to have all the available tricks presented in one easy to view video. A few tricks I noticed were missing:
early xray via shinespark
xray on elite pirates
blue ball exit when heading towards gravity suit after getting the reserve tank
can anyone think of any others?
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I've been thinking about starting to work on the 100% run. Currently I am trying to find the optimal way to do the green brinstar super missile area. I found a strategy that would give Samus 5 missile going into the super missile room after spending 5 missiles to open the red door. It involves killing the wallcrawlers and refilling. This would eliminate the backtracking normally found in the run. Though I am worried that it may be slower. I would like to hear ideas on how to improve it.
Here is the smv. You will need to fast forward to green brinstar. The smv is just a modified version of the published 100% run.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1273927924/missile_refill_idea.smv
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natt wrote:
hero of the day wrote:
Thanks for the update. Good to know no one is working on it. I'll stick to using Snes9x, since Lsnes is horribly difficult to use.
Guess you don't care as much about accurate emulation as you let on.
What makes you think that accurate emulation was an end all for me? I merely said that I would prefer cycle accurate timing over the timing in Snes9x. I have made many published runs using Snes9x, so this certainly would not stop me from using it now. Snes9x contains some of the best tools and the simplest to use interface. Maybe if you actually produced runs, you would see how some emulators provide better experiences over others.
Thanks for the support AngerFist. Here's to hoping I got one more Super Metroid TAS in me!
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I apologize in advance if this been asked before. Is anyone working on implementing the BSNES core into bizhawk? Is this something that is even feasible? I wanted to start working on some new SNES tases, but using the depreciated SNES9x series is kind of a downer when we know that much more accurate emulation is possible. Anyway, any update on the topic would be appreciated.
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That's a good point about only needing 3 tanks to survive mother brain. I forgot that the gravity suit doesn't actually provide any additional protection against her beam. In that case, the only other benefit of getting the extra tanks would be to allow more damage boost and shinesparks from maridia towards ws.
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lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
hero of the day wrote:
2. I like the route change, but I still feel that you had too much equipment for the need of this run.I really think green brinstar cleanup could have been comfortably omitted. If you got the pink brinstar PB pack, I think LN would have been just as doable without the extra etank and super missiles. This route change is something I was even considering for our run, but I didn't think we could do LN with 1 less etank. In retrospect, it seems very possible. The ridley fight ends with a full etank being burned in acid, and everything prior to and after the ridley fight can be compensated by with a little more time spent on enemy energy drops. Maybe my math is wrong here, but I would love to here from you on the topic.
Hero your funny man!!! You do realize you guys collected 4 more items then Saturn right?
You might be right about Norfair though by manipulating drops and collecting more from the pods or bugs before Ridley. That would definitely have to be tested.
Are you sure it was 4? Remember we didn't do the green brinstar cleanup. That's 3 less items right there which offsets the 3 items grabbed in croco land. We did however collect the pink PB pack, and missile pack after speed booster. Did I miss some other missile packs?
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With the advent of Saturn's new rbo tas, I got a crazy idea. After seeing the way Saturn handled maridia without the gravity suit, it really got me thinking. Couldn't the any% run simply play maridia without the gravity suit too? Since it wouldn't be an rbo run, we could kill Kraid first and get the varia, which would make LN a breeze and eliminate the brinstar cleanup normally seen in the rbo runs. After taking out Ridley, go up through Maridia saturn style and take out draygon. Get the plasma beam and backdoor it to phantoon.
I timed the differences in Maridia graviysuitless vs with gravity suit, and the total realtime difference is 2:25.
Timesavers to note are:
1. That we would no longer need to get the gravity suit, which eliminates a huge cutscene. WS in general would be completely abridged because of this.
2. It would eliminate 2 elevator transitions by doing WS last.
3. It would allow us to use the no suit trick on mother brain. Getting 6 etanks wouldn't require much time loss. Kraid, Ridley, HighJump, Purple Crateria, and Maridia sand room, are 5 very easy to obtain etanks. The 6th would probably be blue brinstar early etank.
4. The maridia backtrack from plasma to red brinstar is removed.
Time losses:
1. We would lose time getting the pink brinstar super missiles early vs getting the WS super missiles.
2. Obviously lose much time in maridia.
3. Slower kraid area
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Absolutely awesome run. Never did I think that our run could be bested by this amount of time. I loved your new maridia strategies, especially the epic conclusion to the draygon battle. It sucks that so many pause screens had to be included, but I understand why you did it. It is also a shame that there is no more mocktroid bridge :P
Couple things:
1. I found that it was possible to enter kraid's area (right after the elevator, and shooting the wall out with the super missile) with a jump/morphball. This would eliminate the need to use a walljump in the blue section. It might be faster by a few frames, if any at all.
2. I like the route change, but I still feel that you had too much equipment for the need of this run. I really think green brinstar cleanup could have been comfortably omitted. If you got the pink brinstar PB pack, I think LN would have been just as doable without the extra etank and super missiles. This route change is something I was even considering for our run, but I didn't think we could do LN with 1 less etank. In retrospect, it seems very possible. The ridley fight ends with a full etank being burned in acid, and everything prior to and after the ridley fight can be compensated by with a little more time spent on enemy energy drops. Maybe my math is wrong here, but I would love to here from you on the topic.
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Comparing this to the test run originally provided by inichi, this seems to be a frame by frame copy of it. I vote yes, but clearly his name should be added to the authorship of this run.
Now it would really be nice to see a non-glitched run produced using all current techniques and strategies.
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Thank you for the detailed explanation. It was really informative. It seems like an incredibly sound method for finding the best route for speed runners.
For a 100% TAS - My main issue with doing blue brinstar after WS, is that the super missile in the old tourian escape shaft is horribly out of the way when heading south. It requires dropping to the bottom of the shaft, going back up the shaft to get the super missile, and then falling back down the shaft to go to blue brinstar. I guess I may need to look into it further, but on the surface it seems slower.
BTW, I enjoyed watching your any% route guide on your youtube channel. It would be incredible to see a human run getting a 28 minute final time.
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Great run man! It's so nice to see this game cut down to nothing. Yes vote of course.
I noticed that the music during the credits runs horribly out of sync with what occurs on the actual console. When the sages appear it is most notable. I guess this would just be the result of inaccurate timing in mupen?
Is wrong warping possible on the N64 console itself? I only ask because I see the speedrunning community seems to mostly uses the VC version when making runs.
Would it be possible to skip the bottle if you could trigger text when landing on the blue exit warp in Gohma's room? For example if you were to get deku nuts for the first time and the nuts were right on the blue part, would it trigger both an information box and the warp scene at the same time? Just throwing out ideas. It would be awesome to see the whole bottle sequence removed from future runs.
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Dessyreqt wrote:
http://pastebin.com/D9rUJaws
That's a list of the routes I ended up permuting. "fastest without springball" is the racing route I use nowadays because springball glitch is not a good race strat. Obviously inapplicable in a TAS setting. "my route" is the old racing route that I used to use and that some of the racers on SRL still use. It's basically the "m2k2 route" but without springball glitch.
The score is the value in frames of the tested parts. The route tree is listed at the bottom. Here's the list for ingame time for those wondering: http://pastebin.com/9P1Lg4Ft
Anyway, it does seem that going down blue and up green is faster than the reverse. I've still yet to be able to quantify why exactly that is, but I've observed distinct improvements in my times, both realtime and ingame time, by switching the order of those two around. I agree that the result is counterintuitive, but my testing indicates that having springball, screw attack, and space jump for blue speeds it up less than it does speed up pink and the etecoon area.
Could you describe, in layman terms, the methodology of how you calculated these routes?
For TASing purposes, what route would you recommend for any% and 100% runs?
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I say do it in trial mode. The run will look cleaner and play faster, while still achieving the exact same goals. The black and white yoshis are not a big loss.