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yeah the door transitions suck :/
Unfortunately if the run does aim for in-game time, there will be something like 12 additional door transitions. Combined with additional lag/slower door transitions, and an in-game run may actually be slower in realtime than the current run.
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nice additions to the list. I am thinking that when all of these are added up, it really seems as though getting the wave beam is a must for in-game time.
Another topic for discussion is what version of Snes9x should be used for future runs. I see that there is a 1.53 version now. It looks like it fixes the graphical issues that plagued the game in the 1.43 version. I would also assume that the timing is now more accurate. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
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So now that getting the charge beam early is a no-go, here is a quick list of the places where wave early saves time, please feel free to add:
- Shootable blocks in WS
- Exiting norfair (room after exiting the croco area)
- The room between the crateria lake and the landing site
- The gold torizo fight
- Daygon and Botwoon PB combo (disabling spazer)
- The elite pirates (using xray on them to do a single hit kill)
- Ridley can take an extra 600 (?) damage, thus saving 20 frames on a super missile
- The dachora room
- The blue gate before croco
- The pink brinstar room with the blue gate
- The plasma beam room can be greatly improved using the strategy in Saturn's movie
- There are countless other areas where doors seem like they are opened right when samus is horizontally aligned with them. Maybe many arm pumps are can be added throughout
- killing enemies and collecting countless item drops that would otherwise be impossible (cactus in red brinstar shaft would save time to kill early)
may be possible (needs testing)
- see if wave/spazer can allow a wrap shot in croco area without being charged
- open the blue door on the outside of the WS to see if a shinspark can be performed 2 rooms prior to the chozo statue room.
- the wrap around shot in lower norfair when exiting the light bug room, to open the left side door earlier/faster
If the wave beam can be collected and it only adds 3 seconds of pipe bug refills, it should be worth collecting.
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Does the screw attack zebetite skip cost any time, or is it just as fast non-screw attack version?
Light bug etank early might well be faster for in-game time. Seems like it would be worth testing.
If this run is going to use crystal flashes to slip past single blocks, then there may be anther spot to save time:
http://gromba.nl/zebes/?zoom=6&lat=34&lng=-33
Go straight up after passing the green gate in lower norfair, thus avoiding the pillar room detour to obtain the missile pack up there.
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P.JBoy wrote:
If you wanna get more TASers hero of the day, you gotta start adding to the SuperMetroidTricks wiki page. It'd be great to have a section for the little micro-optimisations that happen throughout gameplay
yeah, that page is horribly out of date :/
I will try to generate a list of things that need to be added.
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The super is to shoot the wall, which drops the crab for the damage boost. The other times I use the super missiles in the demo are just to make it easier to record. In the real run, those would be shot with missiles/charged shots.
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I hope the new 100% run will be the last one needed :)
Anyway, I did some quick tests for the alternate maridia route after getting the main-street missile pack. Surprisingly, it may actually be about 10-15 frames faster to take the upper route. Take a look at my demo runs. They are both improvable, but the general ideas are the same. The upper route actually seems to be much more entertaining too. It involves a mockball into the super missile tunnel and a cool damage boost off the wallcrawler. Though this route may save up to 15 frames, it does cost a super missile :/ the same route without the damage boost (using a morph/demorph) is slower than the traditional route.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1087963906/maridia_route-test_number%201.smvhttp://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1855008919/maridia_route-test_number2.smv
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Yeah, lots of new discoveries thanks to you guys.
Have either of you considered tasing for real? It's not that hard to get into. Just looking at the input from the existing runs is all you need to sharpen your skills. The more tasers, the better!
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The purpose of the WS attic wrap around shot is as follows:
The attic doors will not open until all the enemies in the room are cleared. In the current run by CP, he clears the room both times when (when he exits to the right and later when he exits to the left). The reason he clears the room twice instead of once is because he would need to open the grey door on the left the first time he cleared the room. This would require many seconds of backtracking. Using a wrap around shot allows both the doors to be opened in a single clearing, without any backtracking at all. When finally exiting the WS, the door will be open-able without having to clear all the enemies again. It should save time and a shitload of ammunition at the same time.
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Indeed it probably would save some frames. we should add that to the list of spots that need testing.
As for doing the left sided wrap shots, here are some rooms that may benefit:
1. the door on the right side of WS leading to the missile pack right after killing phantoon.
2. the pink dachora room. (can do a full 2 room shinespark if that door was opened)
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lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
I've tried Crocomire and the Wrecked Ship Attic room but, I couldn't find any success unfortunately. :(
I'm sure they're possible though. I'm not experienced at all with TASing so I was trying in real time. I'm sure there is a way for it to work though. Also I don't have Angle Down so I couldn't try things from a crouching position.
Hero have you found a way to hit the Wrecked Ship Attic room with a Charged Shot by any chance? If so could you please post it cause I would love to see that!!!!
No, unfortunately I haven't had any luck yet here either. Though Behemoth said that he has done it on the PAL version, so I am sure there is a sweet spot somewhere in there on the J/U version. I'll keep trying on these too. I will also see if there are any spots that would benefit from a left to right side wrap around shot.
In regards to the chozo gravity statue, I wasn't talking about a wrap around shot, but rather just finding a shot that is able to penetrate the staircase from the bottom and take out the first row of shootable blocks.
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Is anyone willing to test for wrap around shots with the spazer/wave uncharged? Rooms of interest would be as follows:
1. crocomire room
2. wrecked ship attic
3. crateria landing site (from the top, near where the left door is located)
4. possibly removing the shootable blocks on the left after the gravity statue chozo releases samus
Finding these are an absolute pain. It seems that the only way I have found wrap around locations, is by spamming shots into the right hand side of the screen at an angle. If anyone wants to try, please record your attempt in an smv. It does not have to look pretty, but it would give us a definitive answer that these shots are possible.
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In retrospect, my idea to use the pb combo in the ws in order to shorten the shinespark cool-down, will not work. It takes 120 frames to charge the combo, and opening the door to the chozo statue room will require that a weapon be shot. The time spent charging a shinespark from that point on is way less than 120 frames. So it will not be possible to do a pb combo and a shinespark at the same time without losing massive time.
So we have even less now to justify getting the charge beam early.
I am going to check if wrap around shots are possible with a non-charged wave/spazer shot.
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I cannot seem to find the sweet spot to execute the wrap around shot in the lower norfair sanctuary room. Though I am sure it is possible, and it would save a nice little chunk of time too.
The idea for taking the above path after the maridia mainstreet missiles is a good idea. I think it would be close either way, and should be tested. I had an idea of knocking down the orange wallcrawler with a super missile in the big maridia room and then using it to damage boost to the right when dropping down into the lower room. I will try to make a test run sometime, just to see if it is faster.
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Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
hero of the day wrote:
I had the same idea here too. I think that it would be slower, mainly because you need to get so low to fire the super missile, that it would require you jump up again just to reach the grapple point. Might be worth timing it out though.
Another thing that should be possible is doing a 'perfect' kraid kill using the PB wave combo. If you align the particles like what was done in the RBO run on Croco, it may be possible to have all 4 hit kraid during his first mouth opening. It would be the fastest way to kill him, without exception. Even the hyper beam couldn't do it in one hit :P
I suggested this before, but the issue is, first of all you wouldn't be abble to control the particles with all that damn rocks going to you, also, you have to hit kraid for him to open his mouth, so at most you could hit him with one particle for him to open his mouth and another three in his mouth. Shooting him will not help, because Samus takes much more time to make the particles to apear than just charging the beam.
Good points sir. I totally forgot that it would require a shot just for him to open his mouth, let alone the rocks getting in the way.
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I had the same idea here too. I think that it would be slower, mainly because you need to get so low to fire the super missile, that it would require you jump up again just to reach the grapple point. Might be worth timing it out though.
Another thing that should be possible is doing a 'perfect' kraid kill using the PB wave combo. If you align the particles like what was done in the RBO run on Croco, it may be possible to have all 4 hit kraid during his first mouth opening. It would be the fastest way to kill him, without exception. Even the hyper beam couldn't do it in one hit :P
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Looking good as usual CP!
I think a bomb spread would work just as well here, no? 2 of the 5 bombs have a timer of 120 frames. That way the lag from a PB can be avoided.
And the bomb spread can be used in many areas we have yet to consider. The little tubes in the norfair bubble room (when heading towards croco) might be improved by using the bomb spread.
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yeah good point CP. it's a shame it won't be useful :/
another improvement to the 100% run:
After killing draygon, you place a regular bomb near the space jump door before it starts flashing. Have the bomb detonate right when the door begins to flash. In the meantime, have samus grapple onto the electric spark and then use the grapple momentum to fly into the space jump room at sick speed. This is a great workaround, because normally you cannot press the B button to otherwise build speed.
Also, does anyone think a draygon 1 round is possible? I wonder if the grapple was used to freeze him just enough times, that you could unload PB combos and supers into him and then still get the shinespark off.
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Cpadolf wrote:
Kriole:
Ok, now I see. Yeah that looks good.
That WS strat seems to be around 15 frames faster than in the 100% run. Armpumping all the way should be the fastest as the extra speed doesn't do anything in the spikeroom, due to the last platform slowing you down. Unless there's a better method than to damageboost of the spikes at the end.
Smv
Hero:
I don't think the wavebeam helps there, no. Killing the hoppers and opening the door first, and then opening the gate after jumping up to it is slower IIRC, and if you want to open it early you still have to make a high jump to get it to connect. It might make for a marginally faster exit though as you don't have to unspin to open the door on your way down.
I see, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.
Also, in regards to the green brinstar room rtank entry:
It is possible to go into morphball form on the door itself (instead of on the platform). This lets the morphball fly into the little pipe under the chozo at full speed. Though it is a bounce, so a bluesuit cannot be sustained while under there. The key to this room is finding the right speed to both open the door with a super missile and have it open completely, so that a smooth mockball can be achieved. Jumping early on the bridge lets you fire the super missile sooner. I have gotten this to within 1 frame of working, so it might very well be possible. I just suck at optimizing this type of stuff :P
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Can the pink hopper room benefit from the wave beam? It's funny to think that using a super missile is actually faster than opening the gate the intended way.
With that improvement in WS, there seems to be a pretty nice list of areas that would benefit from the wave beam now. I will try to work up a list of all of them.
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CP:
That was awesome! I had an idea that may save even more time on top of the smv you have. How about if you used the power bomb that would normally open the secret passage way (normally planted nearer to the grapple blocks) on the floor instead. This would open both the secret passage way and the orange door (which would be able to be opened quickly after exiting the PB pack area).
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Those are some really great idea's dude!
Bubble room idea:
This would need to be tested, but it has a chance of beaing faster. When CP's run was being made, I deemed that getting the pack early would be a good idea, because it allows for a big E drop, which is critical at this point in the run. Further evaluation would be needed to determine if this can be changed.
Pink brinstar cleanup:
This is a really really cool idea. I wonder if anyone tested this before? I think it has a good chance of being faster.
Kago stuff:
Is there a run that currently uses the screw attack to pass the spike platforms? I don't think I've seen this done before.
Route change:
I have been contemplating a binstar cleanup route change too. No matter what I come up with, it always seems like the current route is the fastest possible way. Like you said above, your route idea would include another 10 second elevator ride. The improvements to be had in the cleanup would be awesome with the spring/screw/space stuff, but I don't know if it can make up for that extra elevator trip.