Posts for kirbymastah


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RIP my time, spent watching this several times now someone just needs to do a tails run someday... (and an updated sonic run; would the egg rocket skip be feasible with sonic on TAS?)
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Though I haven't done any TASing, it seems like the only RNG really is in techno base zone's boss. Sky Canyon's boss is generally pretty consistent depending on your behavior IIRC
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Kinda disappointing since there're already so many mistakes / optimizations he's missing out on that i do ON CONSOLE (i.e. extra slide in 1-1, or jumping up ladders is faster than dive bomb canceling) / The True Arena TAS is really good though
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erm I personally wouldn't trust anything on that wiki if I were you, there have been quite a few things wrong. Take everything there with a grain of salt (i.e. white pikmin do not attack faster <_< )
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JaggerG did some pretty significant console research on how the in-game timer works for this game - https://m2k2.taigaforum.com/post/ingame_timer.html
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Well its your choice to register or not; it's not a big deal and if you have some problem with arkarian/etc, they probably won't be answering questions anyways. People usually don't answer with personal grudges or anything like that. I still think it's a much better use of your time and our time if you do make an account and post questions on threads (and get multiple resopnses from different points of views), instead of here where it's easy for messages to get gobbled up (and where fewer metroid runners visit here). I don't think it's possible to bomb jump up past the second set of targets (that's what your'e asking about, correct?), and even if it were, it'd definitely be slower than scanning for in-game time; probably real time too since you have to morph then unmorph. Feel free to try though.
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Just watched through the new WIPs so far. Looks great, also loving the website )
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Can we just stop? Things have been resolves, we'll see where things go, we don't need others to keep dragging on a topic that's been done now (ignoring that you are missing the entire point and people aren't against a TAS being made but whatever) Also before this gets lost "In terms of other advice, there're a lot of any% routes floating around that people were messing with (though the standard ones are the IBBF one that the top players use, and the early sun route that a few runners like me use). Metroid177 had an interesting route but I'm not sure how itl'l work for TAS; I recommend PMing him on m2k2. He's also been working on a segmented 21% run lately, which has been really sick to watch so far with some cool strats. I seriously doubt that the TAS would actually follow a single route, since there are many other options you can take, but they're valid ideas to mess with." EDIT Contacting daryoshi is also a good idea. Both daryoshi and metroid177 (both are on m2k2, and both also have twitch accounts and stream so I recommend watching them) have been working on a lot of low% stuff which'll help with learning about general wallcrawling and low% and such.
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AngerFist wrote:
First of all, thank you Samsara and Personman and others for sticking up to us and our community. Out of all the recent posts from m2k2:ers, kirbymastah was the most polite and civilized one.
TheMG2 wrote:
I highly recommend that if you don't already, start lurking the metroid2002 forums, start watching runs of the game on twitch ( http://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Metroid%20Prime ), youtube and sda (all categories, don't just watch any%), learn all the terminology, take part in the metroid prime community, etc. Heck, it would be best if at least one of you started RUNNING the game. Try to get around a 1:10 in any% on console (if you run the game, you'll realize the differences between console and emulator). In addition, do 21%. Don't try speedrunning 21% or tasing it, just do it (with slow down if you must) to get a better understanding of the game. If you do all this, the end result will be way better than if you had not. If you do not put the time and effort into learning about the game, the people who are in the prime community will look down on your TAS. Half a year of playing around with the game does not sound enough to do the game justice. Your posts are not very hope inspiring to me. I have a feeling that you will end up with a worse time than the expected time of miles's segmented run that is currently on hold. I don't run the game, I've just lurked in the prime community for a while. I've learned quite a bit about the game just by lurking and watching runs.
The audacity some people have.. Where do you get the BALLS to talk to us like this? I mean really, WHAT THE FUCK.. Like Omni said, our run, our rules. If it doesn't suit you, then do your own run. Put up, or shut up if you are just going to be hateful and just tell us what on earth are we thinking. Do you think we get more motivated reading hateful and repeated unnecessary information of what we should do? We got the message from Paraxade, we thanked him for his recommendation. Really, it's very demotivating hearing such hate. I bet someone will say but no it's not hate, we are urging you this and that. We heard it the first time! Don't undermine me and my teammates position as tasers. I have done a short 9-tas controlling 9 fucking mega men with one input. Do you have any goddamn idea how incredibly difficult that was? What I went through? How and why I restarted 2 whole times? How many things you need to consider doing a 9-tas run? I have done a sextuple tas, quadruple tas, tased mega man 1, mega man 3, mega man 4 several times, mega man 6, mega man 8, wonderboy, alex kidd in shinobi world and some other games I have forgotten. I have 10 motherfucking tasing years of experience!! And that was just me. Then we have Mothrayas, the guy has tased basically all platforms there is except Dolphin. We have Solarplex who has tased Prince of Persia. exileUT and got4n have good amount of tasing experience aswell. We will read, practice and possibly do a playthrough before starting our official run. Or maybe we will tas at least the frigate and then start fooling around. It's our choice. Do not shove your elitist approach on us, it's demotivating. Help where help is needed, not by saying incredibly stupid things like, "don't waste my time unless.." or watch a 21% speedrun... I was there in the beginning. When Radix did his run. I was inspiried. That inspiration is what made me be a man and attempt tasing this beast of a game. If it didn't work out, then it didn't work out. At least we tried, at least we had the courage. Again we won't back down if we hit a setback, that will only motivate us further. Pay attention to my signature, because that's how I pretty much feel is going on right now. Edit: I am done discussing this as it's draining unnecessary time. The next post from me will be related to the actual run.
Last post about this, but to a lot of people (myself included), there was a strong impression that you guys are already trying to start the TAS already without having done much research, and there have been posts and messages supporting this. A lot of responses to these posts were under that assumption that you guys were impatiently starting and/or didn't really do much research beforehand and I guess that's wrong; at the same time, most of you haven't really said much that shows you've done appropriate research behind the game. Whether that's true or not, a lot of people probably overreacted (myself included) so I apologize for that. In terms of other advice, there're a lot of any% routes floating around that people were messing with (though the standard ones are the IBBF one that the top players use, and the early sun route that a few runners like me use). Metroid177 had an interesting route but I'm not sure how itl'l work for TAS; I recommend PMing him on m2k2. He's also been working on a segmented 21% run lately, which has been really sick to watch so far with some cool strats. I seriously doubt that the TAS would actually follow a single route, since there are many other options you can take, but they're valid ideas to mess with.
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Samsara wrote:
TheMG2 wrote:
If they had read the documentation site that is metroid2002 (like we asked), or kept in mind the techniques brought up to them earlier in the thread, they would have probably came up with the answer without having to contact itspersonnal. As it is, they're wasting people's time.
Or, you know, he could have answered the question nicely or at the very least provided a link to the information instead of being a complete douchebag and publicly belittling got4n and the rest of the team.
Whether itspersonnal answered or not is irrelevant to TheMG2's point (I agree he should've given a helpful answer, assuming he didn't, and he honestly hasn't bee the most polite person). TheMG2's point is that they didn't bother looking up information themselves (when they claimed they would), which is documented very well on m2k2 and has been mentioned countless times to them. Although to be fair to itspersonnal, why should he give them a link to the website if it was already mentioned so often and they didn't bother? I still would've let them know (again) anyways but still.
Samsara wrote:
Let me just say this: If you're not going to give them any information yourselves, then shut the hell up and let them do whatever they want. You don't deserve any creative control over their workflow or process if you're not going to be actively helpful.
Except we ARE trying to be helpful. What do you want people to do, copy and paste content already provided on the website? It's no different than informing them about it. Much of information that's not directly on the website was already provided in the past few pages of this thread. i'm willing to help and answer questions, I want them to do a good job. But if one asked me a question about something very basic, I would just redirect that person to the appropriate page/thread anyways. This is just getting silly, way too many people misinterpreting a lot of things <_<
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Personman wrote:
It is indeed very reasonable to want to not be bombarded with questions that have already been answered in an organized fashion! If that was your fear all along, I think I understand where you were coming from a lot better, though I dare say you didn't exactly make yourself clear at first ;)
To make it clear, I haven't really been bombarded with questions, though I know itspersonnal has been contacted by the TASers for help.
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scrimpeh wrote:
It's okay, the TAS police has already been notified.
quick it's the TAS police, RUN!!! The pony avatar fits perfectly by the way
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Personman wrote:
There is nothing wrong with asking the TASers to learn the basics and try to be more involved with the m2k2 community before starting the game itself.
The other other thing wrong with it is that creating a rift between communities based on a nonsense preconception of how a TAS should be approached can only result in a worse final product. Constructive collaboration is a good thing! And it never involves insisting that other people do things your way! EDIT: No one has refused to look at those resources, as far as I'm aware. I would be shocked if they don't. You're shifting the goalposts rather drastically here. There's a big difference between "six months of research could never possibly be enough" and "we just want you to look at our website!"
Fair enough, there's just been a lot of posts and things that have happened that have convinced me that they haven't bothered taking any advice at all. If you aren't going to listen, why should I bother trying to help with anything else, when currently I'm (and many others, who are more qualified than me) way more knowledgeable than them? I hope I'm proven wrong though. Maybe they did already do their research. I'm not saying anything like "THESE GUYS SHOULD NOT TOUCH THIS GAME AT ALL", but there's a steep learning curve for this game that should not be taken lightly. I am willing to help out but if you aren't aware of some of the basics, over half of my responses will be "I know this, but you can read/ask more about it on m2k2", which taking the advice beforehand will save both me and you and other knowledgeable runners all a ton of time in the long run. EDIT: Why is BBCode defaulted to disabled :c
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OmnipotentEntity wrote:
everyone talking about the m2k2 forums wrote:
{stuff}
But that doesn't make you any less of a prick for broaching it in this manner.
Asking people to go on a site with so much information and documentation makes me a prick? Okay, sorry.
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There is nothing wrong with asking the TASers to learn the basics and try to be more involved with the m2k2 community before starting the game itself. Which they clearly aren't. I don't see how this isn't clear. I admit a lot of things said in this thread were harsher than they should've been, but the fact that literally everyone from the m2k2 community is giving the team the same general ADVICE should be saying something. (and nobody is expecting a perfect TAS, as you think people are)
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EEssentia wrote:
Everything must start from something. You can't expect a fully-optimized TAS of a complicated game out of the bat. So what if it will be inferior? Great runs are made iteratively. If a semi-optimized run was done first, the TASers would learn a lot of things, such as how the game works, how the emulator works, quirks, etc. That would translate into experience that the TASers could then use to improve the TAS in subsequent runs and even help them to better understand how the techniques are done and how to properly implement them in the TAS. Then comes the stage of improving the product even more. A super-optimized speedrun of Metroid Prime did not come in one night. It has come this far after years of iterating improving of old runs. Give the TASers a chance. If they post a WIP, be supportive and help point out things that could be done better. Don't discourage them from not trying at all because then we will NEVER see a TAS. All speedruns begin with a practice run. Is a practice TAS really so bad?
You're missing the point. Having a fully optimized metroid prime TAS isn't going to happen, and will basically be impossible. People don't really want that (though that'd be nice but it's unrealistic). The point is the team ignored the majority of advice from actual knowledgeable people of the game and already starting to work on the TAS, instead of learning more about the game (as they claimed they would). If you don't know how a scan dash works, you really should not be starting the actual full-game TAS <_< People have already suggested trying out individual room TAS's and such, to familiarize themselves with the game. Itspersonnal I understand your frustration with got4n and I agree that it isn't very encouraging, but at the same time it doesn't hurt to answer questions and give help whenever appropriate. Everyone has to start somewhere, and an explanation from someone experienced (especially someone who has done a few TAS's of this game) would be best, especially since some things on the actual m2k2 website are... outdated For the TAS team, if you have questions, it's best to ask on the m2k2 threads (as was mentioned several times) instead of asking an individual or two privately. Most knowledgeable people go on the m2k2 threads and you'll get much better answers from multiple people if you directly ask there (and the answer will be available to everyone, documented, so there would be no need to ask again). Many people know different things about the game and it's best to ask publicly and hear from several people. I still very very strongly encourage you to just try doing a 21% or a simpler save-state speedrun, or TAS individual rooms, just to get a grasp on the overall game. I understand you are all really excited about it and want to start immediately, but honestly a TAS of a complex game done by a group of people who don't even know what a basic scan dash is (or 21% and so on) does not give people much hope. Please please please be patient and spend time learning about the game instead of trying to dive in to the frigate immediately, you are just not going to get anything done by starting immediately and it will be incredibly sloppy (even with realistic imperfect standards). EDIT: This might not be clear... but the info on the website metroid2002.com has a lot of outdated information (though still good for some basics, so you should watch all of it, keeping in mind some of it is outdated), whereas the threads are fine and not really outdated. People DO check that regularly, myself included. To reiterate, the MAIN INFO PAGES on m2k2 are outdated but the threads are not.
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Thing is, everyone has to start somewhere. While I agree that it's hard to have much hope, it's also not very encouraging to keep saying that to people who are new to the game. Again, I'd be fine with the team working on this game if they put in the time and effort into researching this beforehand but (from what I've seen, read, and heard) they haven't really taken that seriously. Feel free to prove me wrong though.
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Except, you know, instead of trying to do the research first, they've already tried to start the TAS itself without full proper research despite saying they'll spend > 6 months researching. I'm fine with people starting a TAS, even if they don't know anything about the game to start with, as long as they take it seriously, and I will help wherever I can. However, they evidently are diving in without doing what was advised by basically every prime runner (which is to do some serious research and play-around before starting the TAS itself), and this will only turn out to be a really sub-par TAS if this continues (and no, people aren't looking for a perfect TAS, that's ridiculous). This isn't a game where you can just start immediately and figure things out as you go. And to be honest there are things the TAS team has said that are just flat out wrong about the game/physics. Can you blame themg2 (and other runners/knowledgeable people) for not having high hopes because of this attitude?
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Samsara wrote:
General consensus so far seems to be either "I'm excited about this run" or "You three pathetic plebeians better have Rain Man levels of savant syndrome or else this run is going to be complete fucking garbage".
Yeah well, everyone who is "saying the latter" (that you're exaggerating) are all the people that know the most about the game, which should be saying something :P It's going to be ridiculously hard to make a metroid prime TAS and it shouldn't be underestimated. I can't think of any game with physics close to complex to that of metroid prime. I agree with t3 that working on individual rooms and bosses would be a good start, to get a general feel for the game physics and how strategies work out that aren't so obvious (i.e. bunny hopping, hitting loading triggers as quickly as possible, and so on).
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Well the tas would be able to do the wallcrawl pretty quickly. Would be worth timing getting plasma upon entering magmoor, then doing phendrana for wave+boost and going through labs (get elder) then far phendrana, all in one trip...(versus what's currently done, going to phendarna first, then go through magmoor, get plasma, then take the elevator to far phendrana)
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There should be a list of known secret worlds somewhere around but I can't seem to find it again. If someone would provide that, that would be a great help.
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Basically everything paraxade said. To emphasize, before starting ANYTHING at all, PLEASE just sit down, play with the game, do some a crapton of research and understand the physics more. The tas is going to be absolutely terrible and unimpressive if you don't do so, and this is easily the most complex game in terms of mechanics. Following the general route that the current record uses isn't too bad of an idea, but with TAS capabilities, going out of bounds will be much much more useful in general. OoB isn't used often in speedruns for prime 1 because it's really hard and risky to navigate and generally slow, but that isn't a problem for TAS. I believe itspersonnal said that, for example, going out of bounds in phendrana shorelines to get wave beam is faster than staying in bounds for example. I think itspersonnal has a video of 2-pooling Omega Pirate but I'm not sure; he also messed around a lot with bunny-hopping mechanics so really, you should just poke him about a lot of the TAS things he's messed with. You should also poke petrie about his prime phase 1 TAS, I believe he has that somewhere on youtube. I recommend reading through the metroid2002.com threads to learn more about the game and ask questions there, since a lot of knowledgeable people are there and willing to answer. I especially recommend reading this: https://m2k2.taigaforum.com/post/random_research_topic.html https://m2k2.taigaforum.com/post/2pool_metroid_prime.html Also, here is a chart of every drop rate that Miles found in the game data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoVqC1jrYPrhdGs4WmhUbUxvZUI1TV9WME15cXVyV1E#gid=8 ; he also found a lot of other things in the inner workings of the game so it's best to ask him a lot of things. Skipping space jump and boost ball are completely out of the question for any%, they save far too much time to skip, especially space jump (which costs like 3 seconds to get in-game time and will probably save minutes in the long run). The thing about fighting prime without thermal is that you have to aim blindly, which shouuldn't be a problem for TAS obviously, just annoying. Getting thermal visor barely costs time for in-game time (real-time it does because cutscenes) because you have to fall down the room anyways, which you can spend that time finishing most of the scans. I do recommend optimizing for in-game time as it makes the gameplay overall look faster, and it's the standard for the prime speedrunning community. Finally a short outline about low% for metroid prime that I made a while ago (and includes 2+3 as well): http://pastebin.com/BH7y00rV ; could be useful in just general learning about the game. Good luck! EDIT: Miles and Petrie also put together a damage chart at some point, not sure where the full one is, but I have this from something miles posted on gamefaqs a while ago: Power Beam (uncharged): 1 Power Beam (fully charged): 25 Wave Beam (uncharged): 1 for each of the 3 waves Wave Beam (fully charged): 20 Ice Beam (uncharged): 10 Ice Beam (fully charged): 30 Plasma Beam (uncharged): 6 (not counting the burn) Plasma Beam (fully charged): 50 Missile: 15 Super Missile: 90 Ice Spreader: 75 Obviously ice spreader would not be collected in a TAS; it's collected in single-segment runs since it makes prime a lot easier and less RNG-heavy, and it costs very little time to get, but it doesn't actually save time if the fight is done optimally. (ice beam also does double damage on metroid prime phase 1 IIRC) EDIT2: Might as well mention some techniques that parax left out that you should research on. -Ghetto Jump - Height technique. Press against some slope to gain height. More information in miles's research thread i posted above. -Bomb Space Jump (BSJ) - Height technique. Manipulate the camera such that when Samus bomb jumps, she gets an instant unmorph in 21/22 frames and can then jump as she's on ground. Read miles's research thread for more details -HBJ/UBJ - http://www.metroid2002.com/techniques_hbj_ubj.php -Aether jumping - When OoB, when you walk from the side of aether and into the box of a room, you have a 3-frame window to jump out of it. This is the basic way to climb up rooms without using standable OoB spots. TAS can abuse this and dash out of it to traverse OoB very quickly, so I recommend messing with it (obviously not done in real runs because it's way too risky and difficult lol)
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SoulCal wrote:
kirbymastah wrote:
...and can easily verify how long each one takes on console.
That's the problem though. We can't verify how long each ones takes on console since the loading times are not consistent, even on a console. (like The Thousand Year Door example). I think we can all agree that the loading on Dolphin should never be faster than a console (with all its fancy moving parts and spinning discs and what not).
They're pretty consistent on console, it certainly doesn't vary by more than a fraction of a second unless the console is broken or something (not saying they always load the exact # of frames, but still). Ultimately, TAS's are for entertainment and demonstration, and I'm ok with it as long as everything is "possible" on console (it wasn't before the recent dolphin improvement because loading was literally instant back then <_< )
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SoulCal wrote:
My take on the issue is that loading times should never be faster than console. Make loading slightly slower if necessary. TAS has the ability to shoot the doors in Prime on the 1st possible frame to begin loading sequences, so with some precision aiming, Samus can immediately walk thru some doors because the loading would have finished. I know this won't happen for all the doors in the game, but it's something.
In my opinion, if you're going to do something like that just for the sake of finding the "theoretical console time", you're better off just doing the TAS on the current dolphin, count the number of frames gained at each door from emulator, then in the comments, say what the time would be with "near-perfect loading times". You'd be able to do so since a TASer should know where all the load triggers are, and can easily verify how long each one takes on console.
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I love how angerfist turned it into an essay about why I think a TAS shouldn't be made, when I didn't even say that I think a TAS shouldn't be created in my recent post (at least on this page). I was refering to your general rude and demanding attitude at itspersonnal and other people (which you should go back and take a look at) which makes TASing this game very unattractive. Basically every response you put up is completely uncalled for. When I tried to make it clear what itspersonnal said in one message, you turned it into an attack at me and him and treating us like little babies. I'm done with it anyways, if you want to keep up your attitude, by all means do so but you aren't exactly doing anyone any favors. Let me reiterate I wasn't saying that TAS's of this game shouldn't be made. I was calling you out on your demanding and insulting attitude. Anyways, I'm done with that. At any rate, I don't really mind if someone starts a TAS right now as long as they recognize the inaccuracies and such; it certainly isn't as bad as it was a while ago.