Posts for mwl


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mwl
Experienced Forum User
Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
JXQ, I've suggested the exact same thing to Guano, but it's his decision on when he wants to redo his run. I'd estimate that currently there are no more than ten minutes to be saved from possible corrections and newly-discovered tricks. The bomb bag and King Zora skip saves at most five minutes, if not less due to all the extra traveling that will need to be done and the possible day/night cycle issues that will need to be resolved; the Deku Tree shortcut on floor B1 saves exactly one minute; and it's likely that the imperfections from the entire run would add up to more than four minutes. If the subscreen delay were removed, we'd be able to squeeze another 2-3 minutes, but so far there seems to have been zero progress in fixing that. Research is still ongoing: Kazooie suggested a version-specific trick that could possibly allow one to skip all adult dungeons, and AKA will return from his vacation in a few days. TSA said he would reveal how he got <48" on the Dampe race (no hookshot) when he reaches that point in his segmented run. I was right originally--the super slide trick could be used and thus the race in the current WIP is not optimal.
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
Twinrova phase 1: You have to do two Z-targets. (1) You Z-target the first witch to receive the fire/ice stream. (2) As soon as your shield begins to deflect the stream, quickly press Z again to switch the target to the other witch. The stream should hit instantly, and you don't have to aim manually, which slows things down. If this isn't clear (it should be), I'll record myself playing if someone can provide a save-state. Otherwise, the run was well-done. I was going to suggest either a bomb throw or simple sword slash for Callout 15 if the sword spin kept causing desyncs, but you figured it out. Current projected final time: 2:35-2:37 (Guaranteed under 2:38:47 based on times from TSA's unoptimized run) Instructions for the last segment to follow later.
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
At the same place in Spirit, right? Or earlier?
mwl
Experienced Forum User
Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
Yeah, it desynched at the same place for me. Remember...you backwalk down staircases and sidehop up them for maximum efficiency. Also, someone should run it from the beginning and make sure it plays until Spirit without desynchs.
mwl
Experienced Forum User
Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
Ugh, where did it desynch?
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
That was about a minute faster than TSA. So we're guaranteed a sub-2:39 now. Just to make sure...you confirmed that soft-pushing the Silver Gauntlets block was faster than going on top of it, right? Did you try super-sliding to the other hand to get the small key? It might be possible, or the distance may be a little too great. It's hard to say. What happens when you skip the Iron Knuckle? I'm guessing that the door to SC 10 (the Armos/switch room) remains locked? The only items you'll need for Ganon's Castle are Light Arrows and Deku Nuts. I'd recommend Light Arrows/Bombs/Deku Nuts. You won't need the Hookshot.
Just finished viewing your WIP. Everything looked pretty well planned and smooth. Maybe you could have taken another health to avoid the beeping sound during your backwalking across the game. Also, I definitely would suggest taking one more health refill when you are waiting for that knight guy to die so your health is 100% full.
I disagree. He's going to have to die again after Twinrova, this time to the Leevers. You want as little health remaining as possible in order to save time.
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
DK64_MASTER wrote:
What if we had reached Jabu Jabu at 6am, gotten the boomerang, and then save/death-warped out of the dungeon. We could then make our way to Hyrule Castle, without fear of time...
And you wouldn't want to do this because (1) you don't have FW, and (2) it takes quite some time to travel up and down Zora's Domain Nice try, though. I thought of it myself. In any case, the next run can use a super-slide in Lake Hylia (triggered by a Tektite) to reach the owl really quickly. This way, one can do Hyrule Castle after Jabu and still make it in time, saving one trek across Hyrule and one brief owl dialogue in the Lost Woods.
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
Spirit Temple - The last full dungeon. Can you believe it? TSA does a very good job on this dungeon in his 4h 57m run, and you should emulate it as closely as possible except where noted below: Official walkthrough: http://www.zelda.com/ocarina/pdf_files/12_spirit_adult_ocarina.pdf SC 1 - This trick *might* be faster than pushing the block (~12"), but it requires a stored ground jump, so I don't know. Time it out and see. SC 2 - Ceiling switch SC 4 - Five Silver Rupees. Just emulate what TSA does. Reminder: All climbable surfaces in Spirit can be hookshotted. SC 5 - Hookshot the climbable wall. SC 6 - Mirror-turning SC 7 - Obviously, your hookshot won't be long enough to reach the chest on the other hand, so use your hover boots. Also, instead of longshotting the torch on the third floor, you're going to have to aim for a hookshot target that's right below it. SC 9 - You'll have to push the switch to kill the Anubis, as you have no fire arrows or Din's Fire... SC 10 - Get an Armos to stop on the blue switch. SC 11 - Iron knuckle skip. It may turn out to be unusable because the iron bars would remain when you return. In any case, just try it out to see if it works--if not, then just defeat the enemy using regular methods. SC 12 - "Let it shine!" SC 13 - Use your Hookshot to reach the fourth floor. SC 14 - Play the Ocarina one last time, and make it your best. :) To get the boss key, step in front of the flames and press A. No damage boost is needed, but timing is crucial. SC 15-19 - Straightforward mirror manipulation. Your crouch stab should be preserved up to the "boss" Iron Knuckle (she has 40 HP instead of 30, so don't be alarmed if it takes 10 hits instead of the usual 8...but if it takes more than ten, something's wrong!) BOSS - I strongly believe using Z-targeting on the witches in the first phase is faster than aiming the fire/ice streams yourself. Just try it out and see. Use luck manipulation for the witches to put themselves in optimal positions. In the second phase, stand as close to Twinrova as possible on the third spell. Press A as you jump over to the boss (with Z-target on) and follow up with five crouching stabs. One cycle is easily doable even in an unassisted run. === 2h 40m by TAS timing conventions (power-on to final input) is a certainty based on times extracted from TSA's run. If we were to tack on TSA's work following Forest, we'd end up with around 2h 41m. A 2h 30m based on SDA timing (Link's house to final blow on Ganon) would be a good goal to strive for. Good luck!
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
Forest Temple as a kid is definitely not faster. It takes over a minute for the series of bomb-backflips to get up to the entrance, when a hookshot could accomplish the same task in five seconds. You can apply similar reasoning to doing Shadow early. The idea of doing ANY adult dungeon early is therefore dismissed given our currently-available tricks. I thought of doing it a long time ago, and quickly realized that it wouln't be beneficial at all. Besides, Spirit cannot be completed as a child by any means, so if part of the plan was skipping that Shiek dialogue in the Temple of Time, I'm afraid it's quite unlikely at this point.
Well after this run, there will be a good month or so for planning on the improved route. I have many ideas which to throw in like skipping the Sliver Gauntlets and saving a bombchu when you get the 1st chest by dying and continue from Links House.
All already thought of =P I've been trying to plan out the next route for about a week now, and what's really annoying is that there seems to be no elegant way to string everything together. What I really like about the current route is the linear LH -> J-J -> LW -> GC -> DC -> KV -> ToT path--each successive destination is close to the previous one and there's no backtracking at all. If you skip the SG and get the bomb bag, you'll have to do a lot of extra traveling, and the day/night cycle troubles will (shudder) make a return. As I said, I really recommend letting a good few months pass before you make an updated run. I'm confident that an impressive-looking and undoubtedly faster route will be out by the end of the year.
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
On the way to SFM, it looked like there were some relatively long, straight sections where you could have used the super-slide to your advantage. Did you try a couple and see if they were faster? I could be wrong. I just found out by accident that if you hookshot the tree branch near the top, as high as you can, you'll land on top of it (which of course, isn't a stable surface) and just slide into the temple easily without having to turn around and backwalk in like you did. Should save about a second or two. Thanks for getting the Deku Nuts without my reminder. You'll need at least 10 nuts for Ganon, and you have more than enough now. I liked how you hit at least one of the Stalfos while it was in the air. You'll be doing this again in the Ganondorf battle. Block-pushing room. Yes, you should have used soft-block pushing. I realize that I mentioned it a long time ago and I didn't expect you to remember (heck, even I forgot to include it in the instructions I posted for this dungeon). In the room with the wallmaster, did you find that climbing the ledge was faster than using the middle pillar as a stepping stone? I just did that room again and I thought climbing the ledge was faster. If indeed I'm right, you can thank AKA for the other suggestion. >=P
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
Argh. That's what I kept telling the other SDA folks, but they kept suggesting the contrary. AKA said the entry courtyard key was faster since you could hookshot the vines and hover, but really there was no solid proof. I don't have time to watch your run right now (will do in about 4-5 hours--comments pending). Did you get the key from the Floormaster? If that's faster, you should have gone with that instead of using the route I posted, as I specifically said you should use your own judgment on this one.
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
I'd really like to see like a sub-27' (at least) TAS for New Super Mario Bros when the technology allows for such a run one day. An SDA user who goes by "chronorox" got 29'20" with one death and some screw-ups. I'm pretty sure at least two whole minutes could be shaved off with consistent usage of the blue shell, perfectly optimized jumps on every level, and luck manipulation for the desired powerups...
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
GuanoBowl wrote:
So, am I under the impression that I will not fight the boss in Forest, just get the bow and get the hell out and Ocarina Warp to the Desert?
Yes...the only reason we even enter Forest is to get the bow, which is needed to defeat Ganondorf later on. I'm looking forward to hearing the Requiem played in under 40 frames. :)
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
Two small keys are needed to reach the Fairy Bow. One of them must be obtained from a pair of Stalfos on the first floor, but there is a choice for the other. It comes down to either the entry courtyard (currently believed to be faster), or a room with a Floormaster. Read my post for more details.
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
That was incredible. The seamwalk...the Bongo Bongo battle...all those crazy backwalks...the fast-forwarded Lullaby. Just wow. In terms of possible improvements, Yautja pretty much got it covered. Yes, the invisible Floormaster could have been defeated with a jumpslash and quickspin, but it also would have taken a lot of luck manipulation to get the pieces to appear right next to each other. The ReDead/Boss Key room could have been a bit more smoother, I think, judging from AKA's video.
YautjaElder wrote:
-I think there is a video of someone beating the hover boots monster in one (maybe it was two) cycle(s).
How would you do that? I tried fighting the Dead Hand four times on emulator and each time I finished it in three cycles. I don't see how anything under that is possible with any weapon except BGS. I talked to TSA over chat and he didn't know of any speed strategy for that battle either. We're both very curious to find out. Here's what's coming up: * Shadow: Don't pick up the Heart Container unless you really need it. * Head to Lost Woods through KV and DM Trail. Use the super slides at your discretion... * Backflip over Mido halfway through the Lost Woods. Video link on Wiki. * Use Yautja's trick to get atop the maze in Sacred Forest Meadow with a groundjump. Video link on Wiki. * Play the Minuet really, really fast. :) Forest Temple: * SC 1 - Entry Courtyard - Get 1st Small Key (See Note 1) You can hookshot the vines * SC 2 - Main Chamber * SC 3 - Stalfos Battle (Need to defeat for upper-level Stalfos to appear); Get 2nd Small Key * SC 4 - Inner Courtyard - Perform Mega Boost * SC 5 - Block Puzzles - Push and climb * Unlock two doors en route to Stalfos Battle; Do two text skips (See Note 2) You can backflip over the staircases in the rooms with the Poe paintings * SC 7 - Upper-level Stalfos Battle; Get Fairy Bow * Play the Requiem of Spirit Note 1: I'd recommend comparing the time needed to get the small key in the entry chamber (SC 1) versus the room with the floormaster (SC 10). The floormaster can be defeated very quickly with a jumpslash and spin attack. Most people on SDA believe that the entry chamber is slightly faster, but no one has actually timed the two rooms. Note 2: Climbing the ledge is not necessary for the second text skip, and is in fact slower. You should hug the wall, jump to the center platform, and jump again to the locked door. Good luck! Hopefully Spirit can be reached before 1 hour, 55 min. We'll see... Oh, and by the way...did anyone run the latest update from the very beginning to verify that there are no desynchs?
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
I've been following the SDA topic. The unfortunate fact is that many of Acryte's new finds (Deku skip, King Zora skip, quick Bomb bag, etc.) work only for child Link and won't be useful unless Guano redoes all or part of his run. I just don't think there's any need--tricks are still pouring in, so why waste the time when the revisions might be obsoleted again in a few months' time? I hope someone will redo this run once the route has fully settled down, but hopefully that won't happen in a while. It's rare to see such a brilliant group of researchers. So, if there is a new discovery that benefits Guano in the remainder of his run, I'll change the Wiki...otherwise, I'll keep the blueprint as is. But please, keep anything that may potentially change what's already done to SDA, as there's no need to discuss them here at the moment. I'll get started on a new "theoretical best route" once the latest wave of new discoveries has halted.
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
Yautja, I think you should provide instructions for how to do that flying trick. =P
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
Yes, that's right, Guano. Hmm, good question. AKA's last post on SDA was July 8 (five days ago), and he usually posts multiple times every day. I hope he's all right...
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
You're being very ignorant. AKA released videos of his 4:40 run a while ago. Check the main OoT topic at SDA. Also, if you've seen his trick list on Youtube, you'll see that he's discovered and demonstrated a lot of helpful shortcuts, such as the 2.5 temple skip, the Din's Fire skips, and part of the Rainbow Bridge skip. It's understandable if he can't show off the Poe boost. He said the trick took him freaking seven hours to pull off. Which sane person would want to spend even more time on it just to show others, when he can describe how it's done? Sure, he didn't provide proof for one trick, but what about all the rest for which he did?
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
AKA can do the poe boost for GuanoBowl since he suggested it in the first place. :) If it really doesn't work out, the run may need to be redone following Jabu. :(
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
Oh, really? So can you stay ahead of him for the duration of the entire race?
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
No, there isn't a use for that glitch in this run.
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
Okay, I just had an AIM conversation with our good friend Acryte. He said the super-slide is impractical in Dampe's race because of all the turns and the time it takes for bombs to defuse. So you're right on that one, Guano. I'm sorry. I didn't know enough about the trick and I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions like that.
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
Guano said that his WIP is no longer a test run and will be submitted after he is done with it.
mwl
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636
Guano, unfortunately, I really don't know much about super-sliding and can't easily help you. It's a recent discovery and I don't have access to my console anymore. I'd suggest talking to TSA yourself. Here is his TASvideos profile if you need his contact info. Any tips and advice I can obtain about this trick will come from him, so you might as well eliminate the middleman. I apologize for the inconvenience.
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