Not all bomb flowers can be replaced by bombchus, if that's what you mean. You need bomb flowers to open the entrance to Dodongo's Cavern and to damage King Dodongo. Bombchus are not an appropriate substitute in those cases.
Guano, please proceed as usual. If you're waiting until day in Hyrule Castle, please do so and continue on to Segment Three.
If there is a change to the route, I'll update you before you make your final run.
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Regarding the SG skip, here are the facts:
* Spirit up to getting Bombchus is approx. 3'30"
* The entire child portion of Spirit takes 7'30"
* Skipping SG requires getting the bomb bag in DC, which takes approx. 2'
* Getting the Goron's Bracelet is a 1'30" diversion.
* Getting the bomb bag means skipping Bombchu Bowling, a 1' diversion.
However, you also need explosives in Hyrule Castle and Jabu, meaning that there are two options:
1) Dodongo needs to be done before Jabu and Hyrule Castle. However, the fastest route to Dodongo involves explosives. Talking to the guard with the letter takes around 1' (?) and there is some redundancy in climbing up and then falling back down to DC.
2) Spirit should be done up to getting Bombchus.
I thought this Deku Stick stuff had long since been settled.
Collect three (3) sticks from Deku Babas prior to entering the Tree.
* Use one on Gohma, followed by two crouching stabs.
* Use one on the Armos in Spirit Temple and preserve the attack power until the Iron Knuckle. In the room with the Anubis, use your Deku Stick to cross the gap (instead of your Kokiri Sword) as AKA said, and don't slash your sword at any time in between. So in response to the previous post, yes--attack power is preserved across rooms.
* Do a "missed jumpslash" with your last remaining Deku Stick on Barinade, then preserve the attack power via crouching stabs throughout the remainder of the battle.
* Use the final Deku Stick on King Dodongo and perform a crouching stab in the second attack cycle.
Good?
If the jabu trick doesn't save the time, then I'm afraid that you'll have to capture a fish and dump it on the alter, but you can take advantage of this by using the bottle glitch so you can have two fishes, thus saving the time throwing Ruto up and going back down again.
To add to this, the fish can be thrown anywhere on the altar. Even in the corner. If it comes down to this, experiment around to find where the best position is.
Of course I know the Spirit tricks don't save him time; I was simply suggesting that if he were to redo the dungeon, he might as well fix those petty mistakes.
Guano, once again, please make sure that rolling into Jabu really does provide the time you need in Hyrule Castle before you work on it. You don't want to spend all that effort redoing Jabu only to find out that you still don't have enough time, and have to restart farther back.
Acryte, you have any ideas how to hex-edit .m64 files?
It depends on how close you were getting into the Castle Courtyard. Assuming that rolling into Jabu saves three seconds, if you need more than three seconds in Hyrule Castle, you'd have to start earlier back. :(
Yeah, redoing Jabu is a pain. :(
GuanoBowl, what's the closest you got to Hyrule Castle (how many seconds late) after all those attempts yesterday?
If under 3, just start in Zora's Domain...get the Deku Nut, and roll into Jabu. Don't start all the way back in Spirit.
Still, I think someone needs to figure out how to hex-edit .m64 files. It's doable with .fcm files -- do a search and you'll find many topics discussing that.
AKA wrote:
The other easy improvement would be to speed up the owl text after Link leaves Kokiri.
If I remember correctly, time is frozen during dialogues.
GuanoBowl wrote:
Why the A, B, A, B? And in which dialogue? And again ill let you handle the jumpslash with a sword because I could not figure that out. "
The dialogue with the Spirit Sage.
You'd still jumpslash with a stick on the Armos and preserve the power of that attack until the Iron Knuckle. Don't use your sword anytime in between.
Have you looked into hex-editing? If that doesn't work, and you really have to redo all that, here's a summary of corrections:
General tips concerning backwalking - You want to backwalk in a straight line. No "diagonal" backwalks, and try not to hit walls and then make adjustments later.
Requiem of Spirit - You can play this MUCH faster. It should sound almost like a blur.
Spirit Temple - A, B, A, B (rapidly) on the dialogue. Preserve the deku stick jumpslash on the Armos until the Iron Knuckle by not doing any jumpslashes with your Kokiri Sword in between. This means doing something else in the room with the Anubis.
Hyrule Field - I'm pretty sure your backwalk to Lake Hylia can be improved somewhat.
Zora's Domain - Collect the Deku Nut in the pot by to the sign pointing to the King's Chamber and use it on Barinade.
Zora's Fountain - Try to roll into Jabu-Jabu instead of jumpslashing, like AKA said. (AKA, can you please elaborate on this?)
I'll give you the facts and let you figure it out.
1. The Forest, Fire, and Water Medallions are REQUIRED in order to learn the Nocturne of Shadow.
2. The game's programmers (wrongly) believed that playing the Nocturne was the only way to access the Shadow Temple.
3. A difficult series of tricks discovered a few months ago have enabled skilled players to enter the Shadow Temple before any other adult dungeon.
Now, try to think like a programmer. How can you check that certain item requirements are met in the most efficient way possible?
However, from now on, I kindly ask that newb questions be kept to a minimum. It'll all work out in the end, so just wait and see.
SpiDeY wrote:
Dunno why, but the "market scene" doesn't seem precise for me.. Just looks like a very fast speedrunner, but not like a TAS..
Please elaborate. How can this section be done more efficiently?
Well, in the worst case scenario you're just going to have to go back to earlier sections of the run, redo them, and hex-edit the new inputs into your movie file.
But it's doable, and this is what separates a TAS from a console speedrun. If it's the most frustrating trick in the run, at least the rest of it is all downhill from there on out.
K, here is the difference however... TAS or not... How much time does it take to lure the poe over to the damage boosting location? Because that is wasted time technically, though it is understandable that the trick difficulty is irrelevant in a TAS. (it is still probably faster however to lure poe, just pointing this out)
If you plant the magic bean, you'll need to head to the graveyard from KV when there's no need to as a child. Plus, buying the bean itself is a trip down Zora's River, a lengthy dialogue, and ten rupees. The Poe boost is faster without a doubt.
Improvements need to be taken from the portions of the run that involve these areas:
Hyrule Field / Hyrule Castle
Gerudo Valley / Gerudo Fortress / Desert Colossus
Lake Hylia / Zora's Fountain
Time does NOT flow anywhere else. So, shaving 3-4 seconds off a dungeon boss will not resolve the problem.
AKA, he's already uploaded the run. Check the previous page for a download link.
The sound of the wolf howling is the exact cutoff for nighttime. If you can enter the castle courtyard any time before then (and you have to go through the entire tunnel for it to count), the game will think it's still day. How many seconds are you slow by?
Waiting outside is a minute down the drain, and hence an absolute last resort.
Once on the seam, go into first-person view and position the sword icon on the top of the screen to the right of the seam. To walk up the seam, hold down Z, and remember to keep lining yourself up every few steps so you don't slip.
Tips courtesy of fluffy_kitten (the guy who made the video).
No one has ever done a seamwalk in a TAS, so I suppose it's up to you to figure out what the limits are.
I'll let Guano make his decisions (if he hasn't already), but I'd think it's best to make this the "final" run, get it published, and wait a good few months for people to comment on the run and suggest improvements. Then, anyone who wants to make a new run with all improvements can do so. I don't think all the mistakes so far total even near a minute -- and for a run that's approaching the 1-hour mark, it's very solid.
Seamwalk tips
You have to line yourself up perfectly with the seam. Use Z to get a closer look at the edge - that's what you're trying to walk up. Once you're on it, you have to remain on that edge in order not to fall off. Then, after you've made it up, you can backwalk towards the fence.
Bombchu boost tips
As soon as you jump, press the L and R buttons together. Immediately afterwards, press B quickly and you should be boosted across the moat and onto the ledge. You should have 1/4 heart remaining (!) after the blast.
Hope this helps, and good luck.
The deku nut in the domain is where the pots are near the bottom of the domain. The nut is also very good for Ganon's tower espeacally the lizard and the first stalfos. The mad plant I was refering to is the one to the right of the door when you play the SoT to remove the time block.
You're right. The one in Zora's Domain should have been collected. It's in the pot right next to the sign -- and this could have saved time on the boss battle. I think you're right for the Forest Temple one as well. It looks like the time saved in Ganon's Tower and the last battle outweighs the time needed for the diversion.
AKA wrote:
All I'll say is that you need to roll jump and have a perfect peak jump slash followed by the poe hitting Link at an upward perpendicular angle, even then half of Links body is hanging over the edge once its done.
But it's doable, and this is what separates a TAS from a console speedrun. If it's the most frustrating trick in the run, at least the rest of it is all downhill from there on out.
...um, no. Please don't listen to him, Guano.
You have barely enough time to make it into Hyrule Castle as of now. You have to take the owl. I fell into the moat once and it was sunset by the time I climbed up and made it back to the drawbridge. There is certainly no time to go down the river and backwalk to HC, and still make it.
Why the hell are we getting Deku Nuts as an adult? Because they would be good for Ganon? You'd need more than just three Deku Nuts for there to be a significant difference, and your sword spins are fast enough. Keep in mind that you get a string of text boxes every time you pick up a new item.
No, Shadow is definitely doable with three hearts. If it becomes an issue, he can always pick up a heart from a defeated enemy.
We're not planting the bean. That takes too long. Going to the graveyard is now an unnecessary diversion, and where are we going to get the 10 Rupees for the magic bean?
Once again, I ask where the Deku Nut before King Zora is. It should have been brought up way earlier.
Yes, I used the same route as posted on my site. It's up for me right now. In case you can't see it, the rest of segment two is planned as follows:
Zora's Fountain (Receive Zora's Sapphire)
Zora's Domain (Catch fish in bottle)
Lake Hylia (Owl warp to Hyrule Castle)
Hyrule Castle (Seamwalk/Bombchu boost)
Castle Courtyard (Roll past guards)
Hyrule Field (Die*)
* Climb the chain, then get the 20 Rupees and fall down to die.
AKA, what Deku Nut? No, he didn't, and once again you should have brought this up earlier. The Wiki can be edited by anyone, and that includes you. If you don't see "Collect Deku Nut" on the route, that means Guano didn't do it.
http://mwlin.freehostia.com/wiki/index.php?title=TAS/Speed
No heart pieces. Since there's no save and reset he has to die each time. Recovering any health whatsoever will slow the process.
I posted the correct plugins a few pages ago in this topic.
EDIT - I just tested out my route after Barinade and you reach Hyrule Castle at midday under fairly optimal conditions. w00t!
Btw, what's the point of unloading that Bombchu in the first phase of the Barinade battle? I take it that it's not part of the final run. Bombchus cannot damage the boss in any way.
So we're looking at a one hour target for the end of segment two. Excellent.
Yeah, just hold the C button you assigned the boomerang to. Sorry.
Barinade strategies (from SDA):
When you hit the body with the boomerang a second time (like TSA did-- right before it started moving around) nail the boomerang in there again and THE MOMENT it connects, pull out a deku seed and aim it at the center of the body. For some reason, this causes all the other electrical whatevers to be instantly destroyed.
When it starts firing electricity, purposely get struck by one blast so it comes out of the ground faster (tested this). Do a side jump or something into it so it doesn't look as bad.
I tried a lot of things but at best, you have to kill it it 3 rounds because the best I did was manage to leave it with a single point left when it comes out of the ground for the last time.
After he goes completely underground, get hit and he'll come up faster. Taking damage does make barinade rise quicker in the last stage.
After beating phase one, QUICKLY Boomerange the body to stun it, otherwise you will have whirling jellyfish to contend with. Ignore the first wave of jellyfish and attack the body. For phase two, it's possible to take out all four jellyfish in a single stun cycle.
For phase three, two Deku Stick jump-attacks and one regular jump-attack ought to finish the job.
Of course, there's also TSA's video. He did a pretty good job on this battle IIRC.
Do you have to climb the vines and such to boomerang the switch our could you do it from a position on the ground level.
You could try aiming at the switch with your slingshot and then throwing the boomerang.
It's the only way you can "target" your boomerang throw (that I know of).
If that doesn't work, you'll have to climb the vine. In this case, after the boomerang hits the switch, side-hop off the platform as TSA did in his 5 hr. run.
Please post another .m64 after Barinade so that we can give feedback.
