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Wow, thanks Bisqwit, I didn't know that was even possible. (This movie made a really small AVI too, probably thanks to the game's abysmal frame rate and mostly static backgrounds.) And I'm glad you found the movie entertaining.
About the code you posted... it looks like more than just a temporary workaround for this movie, I think it would work well as a general-purpose fix for the sound desync bug, at least until an official one is available. The only games that it alters the timing of are ones that experienced random timing changes anyways, so apparently the only "side-effect" is a positive one. Existing movies still play fine with it. And I haven't heard the sound mess up with it at all (even including games like Tetris Attack that have sounds with dynamically changing pitch/volume). So... are there any reasons not to use it like this? I'm fairly certain that everything that's possible in a game when the sound is muted is also possible when it isn't muted.
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Truncated wrote:
I thought nitsuja decided that forward speed was somewhat lower when pressing two directions.
This only applies when you're actually moving in those two directions, I think. (Although in cases where you're walking along a wall while facing towards it, I think it looks slower or at least more careless than facing in the direction being walked in, so I'd rather it not be done.)
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I think this is hinting that a desync bug was introduced between 1.43 WIP and 1.43 Final, in which case I highly doubt the Zelda fix would help.
My guess is that the 1.43 Final contains a bug that causes occasional desyncs regardless of the game. (This might explain why even Zelda 3 sometimes still desyncs with the zelda fix... maybe I should try a WIP-based version of Snes9x with zeldafix/no time limit/etc. in it?)
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Actually, having watched it, I think you probably fight both the guard and the miniboss guy as fast as possible. But, when entering that room you let the stairs slow you down by walking straight down instead of to the right first, and the same thing happens soon afterward on the way back up coming out into B1 where it's noticeably faster to start out moving left instead of down.
I get:
404 Massive Existence Failiure
The requested resource has been solen by a brigand of angry leprechauns...
Oh, wait a sec, actually it's at
http://www.nerdparadise.com/crap/LoZLttP-Omni-WIP2.smv
(leprechauns must have uncapitalized the Z).
OmnipotentEntity wrote:
Green Guard: I can't make him come down, I've tested up to a wait of 14 frames. And I figure if he can come down and hasn't yet, then it'd still just be quicker to just waltz straight in and kill him.
If you mean in the room before the boomarang, even if you could get him to go down, I think it would still be faster to get him to move right instead, since that's closer to the direction you have to move anyway.
OmnipotentEntity wrote:
Tested the pot, not as quick.
Although if they had just put it a *little* bit closer it would be faster. I'm guessing you still kill him when he's pinned against the wall -- have you tested whether knocking him to the left before he dies is faster? It loses some frames positioning yourself to prevent him getting stuck, but it saves walking + boomarang return time back to the cell, so I'm not sure which is faster. Also, stabbing does just as much damage as slashing, always hits at the earliest possible frame if you're close enough, and doesn't knock enemies as far away.
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OK, if it's really that unlikely to happen on the first time, here's what I would do: Go in and out of the cave, making a save state on a separate slot at the exact same frame of the transition each time (overwriting old saves in a circle if it takes more tries than save slots). Stop after making the save that's right before the fisherman is appearing. Now use the cheat finder to compare the values between each of these saves, and see if there is anything special about the last one compared to the others, or if there is any logical progression of values to that final one. 'Hardwire' the possible choices to the final value it was until one of them results in the fisherman always appearing the next time you exit the cave. By this point or pretty soon afterward I'd probably have enough information to tell whether the fisherman will appear next by monitoring a particular memory location, and then I could try different things to see if that can be manipulated (it could be the number of steps you've taken, number of frames in a particular location, how fast you got through the title screen, how fast you closed the fisherman's dialog box, etc.).
Actually, I wouldn't mind giving this a try sometime, but only if the fisherman can appear really close to the beginning of the game or if I can get a save state or WIP movie file that progresses far enough in the game to be able to try it. (edit: err... I didn't see your post with the WIP when I was typing this)
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If you need resource viewing, press Alt-A in Snes9x and you can search for what memory address change when you do differnent things, but it'll be a slow process to find anything useful... If you still have a save state where the fisherman showed up, that will make things a little easier.
But since it's a one-time thing, you don't necessarily need to plan out how to get it to happen. Especially since you already got it to happen once, and some people say they've gotten it on their very 1st try even on console, so it can't be impossibly difficult to manipulate, you just have to try a few things, or a few thousand things, as usual with luck manipulation...
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nitsuja wrote:
I can't reproduce this at all; I'm getting no desyncs no matter what.
Hmm, guess what? I just got a desync in Zelda 3, and it was just like they used to be... I'm not exactly sure why it still occasionally screws up, but I think it only happens when you're starting a new recording in some unknown situation that causes Snes9x to start out with the random variable set to the wrong thing. My guesses as to the possible things I did differently this time that might have caused it are:
- Starting recording after watching another movie or playing another game, without closing and re-opening the emulator first.
- Deleting the game's .srm file while the emulator was still open.
- Fiddling with stuff like Joypad Swap and Background Clipping.
- Over-reliance on out-of-order re-recording (probably not it, because it's worked fine all the other times)
- Not using FMOD DirectSound (also probably not the problem)
Omega, did you do any of these things when you were recording yours that desynced?
(On the bright side, this usually doesn't happen, and continuing the recording from just before it desynced seems to let me continue recording with no further desyncs whatsoever.)
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I wouldn't rely on hex editing either. I mean sometimes I do anyway, but usually it just fails miserably even if it's done correctly. Honestly I think the loss of 2 or 3 frames is (usually) not something to worry about unless it happens many times -- there are often significant changes that can be made instead which will save far more frames. For starting a game I'd just as soon put Start on auto-fire and live with the 1/2 a frame that's lost on average per transition.
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Some other things about the run so far, these are just nitpicks but they do cost a little time:
- In the big main entry room of the castle, you take a non-optimal path through that room (both times).
- In the room with the green guard you have to kill to get into the room with the boomarang, you can manipulate that guard to start out walking to the right instead of up in order to kill him faster and closer to the door.
- In the first dark room with rats in it, you go a bit out of the way to avoid a rat, which can be made to go in a completely different direction by changing when you hug the wall it's running along.
- In the room with bats, 2 snakes running at you and a key in a chest, one of the snakes can be made to not run at you, so you don't have to throw a boomarang to get through.
- You lose 7 frames walking diagonally each time you go through the little two-stair room B2 above where Zelda is/was -- try going sideways first, then up+side. (What you do is slower because sometimes Link's diagonal running speed is cut in half just after entering a room or using an item.)
As far as I can tell, straight-up slashing is the fastest way to defeat the ball-and-chain guy, compared to throwing pots. But, throwing a single pot at him is almost as fast (within 5 frames). Actually, I think it's possible to save even more time by doing something like pinning him up against zelda's jail cell instead of the far wall, and/or using a spin attack (prepared while walking toward him) that hits him twice, but I haven't tried these out.
At the part where you got hit, even in slow motion it doesn't look faster than walking to me, and it looks accidental when playing back at full speed, despite the fact it's certainly not accidental and in fact I'm not really sure how you managed to get the guard to push you at that angle. I just think that manipulating the guard to not be in your way so you can walk through at normal speed would look better. When you said it's 12 frames faster, did you mean it's 12 frames faster than it would have been if there were no guards at all?
(edit: added last nitpick)
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OmnipotentEntity wrote:
In the first basement with the two green guards, it is impossible to manipulate them based on the frame the screen moves over, I'm going to guess that means that the only time enemy's random motions are calculated is when you go through a door.
I'm not so sure about that. I think those particular two guards happen to not be randomized and always are in that position when you get there.
OmnipotentEntity wrote:
The buttons you hold down seem to have no effect on the motions of enemies (other than sword swing, and probably dash when I get that).
The directional buttons definitely have an effect. When a guard stops and turns around, he'll choose between right or left depending on which way you're facing, for example. Or when a rat hits a wall and turns along it, you can choose which way to make it turn by facing a different way or even just letting go of the directions on the right frame. It may also affect the randomization that decides if an enemy drops an item.
OmnipotentEntity wrote:
If anyone sees somewhere I can get hit forward easily tell me. I'm usually oblivious to that type of thing. *sweatdrop*
Oh, the guards can actually knock you forward... I seem to recall this not being worth it though because the push you get forward is actually slower than your normal walking speed and you can't start walking again until it ends completely.
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Some more random hints:
- Whenever there's a pull-switch on the wall, you can start pulling on the wall from a pretty large distance away from the switch (like 1 and a half links) and the game will teleport you in front of the switch, saving half a second or so of walking.
- The boomarang can be thrown in a completely different direction from what you're facing even while you're moving, just press the throw direciton on the same frame as the use-item button and you'll throw it without turning to face that way. (Maybe not that useful but I think it looks stylish to throw it backwards or sideways.)
- You can start walking away from a treasure chest at the same time as you open it.
- You can alter the direction you're facing while walking diagonally by pressing the desired direction for 1 frame then holding diagonally. The diagonal walking speed isn't affected at all by what direction you're facing, although the percieved speed often is since it looks like you should be moving faster in the direction you're facing.
And I just tested diagonals a bit... unlike I previously thought, walking diagonally is actually a little slower in each individual direction it takes you, so moving back and forth while walking down a corridor isn't free, however besides that it's still always faster to walk diagonally whenever possible.
Oh, and about the gambling game, don't you only get 50 rupees for paying 20, so you gain 30 rupees per time? Since it involves walking in and out of the gambling house with a screen transition both times and talking to the guy to start the game, I think picking up rupees elsewhere could still be faster.
edit: And I can't believe I missed this, but when Zelda says "Sanctuary is just beyond that door. Pull that switch over there" right near the end... that's totally unnecessary, you can walk a bit to the right first and that dialog box won't be triggered at all.
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I think the enemies definitely could have been manipulated better, I mean sometimes you jump through without delay or taking damage, and other times on the same exact type of enemy you let it push/bite you for a while before moving through. And you claimed to have jumped through a dragon once, which would speed this run up considerably. But anyway, this game strikes me as maybe not the best for a time attack...
edit: I hate typos. And maybe I somehow missed where you jumped through a dragon, it looked like they all delayed you.
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So you're deciding to not get money from the rats? I'm not sure if it's worth it either, or what the fastest way to get rupees is later, but you can manipulate the rats to always drop rupees to get about 160 rupees at the cost of the 10 or 20 seconds it takes to kill most of the rats.
I'm noticing places where you do extra movement that coud be avoided by either manipulating luck or just walking even closer to the guards. For example, in the room with the map on the way back up, and in the room directly south of that on the way down, you walk more perpendicular to where you're going than necessary. A few times you don't line up with doors which wastes a few frames getting pushed sideways, although most of the time you enter them exactly in the center.
The guard in the cellar can be manipulated to walk the other way so you don't have to boomarang it at all. In fact, almost all enemies can be manipulated by a combination of changing the frame you enter the room, and changing what buttons you're holding on the frame they decide which way to turn, in case you didn't know that... I think the rat you get the key from can also be manipulated to not run as far away from you as it did before you killed it.
Oh, and why do stop and wait for the boomarang to return to you the very first time you throw it? You can just keep going through the door without it and you still get the key upon entering the next room. But good job on killing the guards ultra-fast, I think getting it that fast is much harder to do than it looks.
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OmnipotentEntity wrote:
I finally tested it with Mario RPG. It still desyncs.
However, I was playing a movie I made with 1.43.
However, (again) it worked fine the first time, but desynced when I played it back for a second time.
Hmm, this sounds exactly like the sound desync bug, actually. When I play the same OOTW movie, it alternates between not working and working at certain points in the movie. It's odd that a bug apparently being caused by nondeterministic sound causes such reliable alternation. (So I'm starting to doubt it's caused entirely by nondeterministic sound, it's likely there's some other missing factor, although at least in the case of OOTW it does fix itself if sound is off.)
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I can't reproduce this at all; I'm getting no desyncs no matter what. In fact, I loaded from your movie and played a bunch more (mostly fooling around, but still using lots of save states) and watched that and it was all in sync. (see http://www.filespace.org/nitsuja/legend-of-zelda-3-omega-continued.rar ) And I did a good amount of luck-manipulation (and in my previous run) which would've led to certain desyncing before. I also tried starting another game, even from a save file, it still worked fine, regardless of whatever slowdown/frame advance/sound settings I tried.
So... are you able to reproduce this? What other settings do you have set? It's nearly impossible to track down a bug if it there are no known steps that cause it.
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Uh, in that movie file, you don't even get to the cellar boss at all, you die in the first hallway (or maybe I misunderstood, that's what you see when you play it back, right?) Did you make this movie file in one go, or did you make some of it and then play it back and continue by saving and loading a state? Also, did you have any other save states of zelda that were made with other versions of the emulator?
You start from a save file, that's a little weird and I've never tested that, so there's a chance that's the problem. Also, keep in mind that Snes9x has plenty of *other* desync problems that may also affect this game, but (besides the sound desync one) these other problems tend to happen far less frequently than the zelda desync bug did.
Anyway, I'll do some more testing and try to reproduce this...
I just recorded a movie using that file, but it still desyncs after a little while (at the first levels of the castle, obviously because of enemy AI).
Uh, are you sure? I've made 2 or 3 test runs up to the cathedral and haven't seen a desync. Make sure you're playing back the same movie and not using the WIP. I kinda doubt hotkeys broke it but I can test it some more though.
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BoltR wrote:
Remappable keys, especially for frame advance.
OK, working on this now, it's close to being done. What would you set frame advance to, by the way? (It relies on a certain Windows functionality to get the proper repeat speed of frame advance, which excludes certain keys from being possible to set. In other words, something like Shift would be really hard to make possible because it's purely a modifier key and also because it conflicts with the save state keys.)
pilif wrote:
Your hacked version seems to have some slight problems with the sound. It's a bit distorted and clicking on my machine, but this may be a configuration problem.
This is maybe because I disabled FMOD, if you were using it. I'm putting it back in. It could also be because your computer was just barely able to handle the sound without clicking problems, and my compiling of it made a version that isn't quite as fast on your computer. (In which case, what type is it? As in, Pentium 4, Pentium 3, etc.) But I didn't change any sound code at all.
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BoltR wrote:
Remappable keys, especially for frame advance.
OK, working on this now, it's close to being done. What would you set frame advance to, by the way? (It relies on a certain Windows functionality to get the proper repeat speed of frame advance, which excludes certain keys from being possible to set. In other words, something like Shift would be really hard to make possible because it's purely a modifier key and also because it conflicts with the save state keys.)
pilif wrote:
Your hacked version seems to have some slight problems with the sound. It's a bit distorted and clicking on my machine, but this may be a configuration problem.
This is maybe because I disabled FMOD, if you were using it. I'm putting it back in. It could also be because your computer was just barely able to handle the sound without clicking problems, and my compiling of it made a version that isn't quite as fast on your computer. (In which case, what type is it? As in, Pentium 4, Pentium 3, etc.) But I didn't change any sound code at all.
