Posts for petrie911

Posted: 2/15/2009 2:40 AM

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petrie911

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OK, it's new route time. The Fortress 100r chest is actually a fairly decent get, at 24 seconds. Faster than ECT, at any rate. We'd get the egg in the hookshot room and the one where we fight the pirate first, then come back for the ones where we skip the pirate fight. First cycle stuff (get ~270r) Double Time Hit CT Owl buy bomb bag, 20c (140r) (20c) Off to swamp (11c) Get bottle, all that stuff Sonata Song of Soaring Hit Woodfall Owl Woodfall up to Bow (8c) Warp to CT Head to Ranch Get in early (5c) Get Ranch Bottle *Double Time again when morning comes* Warp to CT Head to GB Hover over fence (3c) Get Zora Mask Hit Owl Statue Go get Hookshot + 2 eggs (0c) Get 2 eggs from Fortress+100r chest (240r) Warp to CT, buy 20c (160r) (20c) Warp to Woodfall, go to Fairy Fountain WW to Snowhead (5c) Complete Snowhead (0c) Warp to CT Buy 20c (80r) (20c) Climb Stone Tower (0c) Buy 20c (0r) (20c)*** Complete Stone Tower, get rupees inside (>160r) Buy 20c (>120r) (20c) ** Use Boss key skip to complete Woodfall (0c)** Buy 20c (>40r) (20c) Get Pinnacle Rock Eggs Do GBT with new skip Moon The triple starred line is where the rupees 0 out, so if you go with less than 270r from the beginning, your incidental rupees will need to balance out there. The double starred lines are unclear. It may be better to do Woodfall the regular way, in which case you only need 80r from Stone Tower.

Posted: 2/14/2009 9:01 AM

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petrie911

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OK guys, I made a test TAS of the new GBT route. I got it down to 34 explosives for the boss key skip, plus 4 for hovering over the gap in the control room, for a total of 38. I'll upload a video soon, and I'll try to get frame comparisons to Mukki's run done quickly. Initial estimates tell me that we may be looking at a time saving of 2 minutes here. Oh, and it turns out that, with that one bombchu saving method where you switch to the Zora Mask, you can break the lock by targetting a bombchu that you dropped to do a hover with. The timing is very precise, though, so it's probably not good for unassisted. EDIT: here's the frame data Main dungeon. Timing begins after entering the control room and ends upon the fadeout while entering the boss room. Mukki - 14570 frames (4:03) New - 8057 frames (2:14) Difference - 6513 frames (1:49) Also, I think I improved on his boss fight. Mukki - 2043 frames (:34) New - 1566 frames (:26) Difference - 477 frames (:08) I think we could go sub-2:00 with the run. EDIT2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2PyzRDoSxk

Posted: 2/13/2009 6:01 PM

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petrie911

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We'll need to get OoB in a place sufficiently close to the boss door, but accessible with the normal current. I think the room with the boss door is directly below the main control room. If so, the boss door should be to the left (assuming you enter from the temple entrance and not the tall water room).

Posted: 2/13/2009 12:25 AM

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petrie911

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GBT boss key skip is almost certainly not worth it. I seriously think the time spent hovering alone loses time, let alone buying more explosives. The boss key is just right on your path. And TBH, the boss key skips really don't add many skipped areas. We already skip the GBT mini-boss, STT's skip is wholly impractical, and Snowhead is already explosive-heavy, leaving Woodfall as the only one that might be useful. And all it does is skip 1 mini-boss. Oh, and it even wouldn't be useful in 100%, as we have to beat Gekko for the frog.

Posted: 2/11/2009 9:48 PM

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petrie911

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I'm not exactly sure where said rupees will be coming from. Fighting Gekko incurs a at least a minute of time loss, though, so a simple Zora Pots game could probably make up for it. That or we leave Woodfall until after STT and just Light Arrow a few things. That could work. So, let's see here. Assuming we skip Goron Mask, which, to me, seems time-favorable, we have... First cycle stuff (get ~270r) Double Time Hit CT Owl buy bomb bag, 20c (140r) (20c) Off to swamp (11c) Get bottle, all that stuff Sonata Song of Soaring Hit Woodfall Owl Woodfall up to Bow (8c) Warp to CT Head to Ranch Get in early (5c) Get Ranch Bottle *Double Time again when morning comes* Warp to CT Buy 10c (100r) (15c) Head to GB Hover over fence (13c) Get Zora Mask Hit Owl Statue Go get Hookshot + 2 eggs (9c) Get rest of eggs Zora Pots game (190r) Do GBT (0c) Warp to CT, buy 20c (110r) (20c) Warp to Woodfall, go to Fairy Fountain WW to Snowhead (5c) Complete Snowhead (0c) Warp to CT Get 50r from chest (160r) Buy 20c (80r) (20c) Climb Stone Tower (0c) Buy 20c (0r) (20c)*** Complete Stone Tower, get rupees inside (100r) Buy 20c (20r) (20c) Use Boss key skip to complete Woodfall (0c) Moon Note that the 270r can be reduced by however many incidental rupees are obtained before the rupee count hits 0 (the triple starred point). Those 100r from Snowhead can be obtained by Light Arrowing 2 enemies. The Blue bubbles outside Gomess' room will do nicely. We lose 1 SoS with this route, as well as the time it takes to buy bombchus. it's not clear whether it works out to be time-favorable, though. Of course, since the route is exactly the same up to that point, it can be tested when we come to it. So, thoughts?

Posted: 2/10/2009 7:27 PM

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petrie911

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Looks like he faked the first method, too, although it's obviously based on the real method. It looks like it cuts at :08.

Posted: 2/10/2009 5:09 PM

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petrie911

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This is incredible. If this all works out, we'll be able to make TASes of a current system. How awesome is that?

Posted: 2/9/2009 5:39 PM

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petrie911

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Mukki wrote:

I think that you're onto something with skipping the goron mask. Also, the extra toll a gm-less run would take on link's bomb bag should be taken into account in the time lost. For example, superslides would need to be more common in places that would otherwise be rolled i.e to milk road. Also, we no longer have a goron bomb jump, therefore the ikana and gb fences have to be hovered over (not to mention the seam walk). There's probably others so it will need some fairly solid planning, but I think you're right that it won't add up to as much as 5 minutes.

Well, there are plenty of places to refill bombs in the game, and bomb drops can be manipulated if need be. The Ikana fences can be cleared with a single hover, so we can either use the Bubbles as our damage source or ESS to let a bomb fuse run out. The seamwalk can also use bubble hovering, although that may not work as well. The GB fence will probably need chus, as there's no way to lure a leever over there, but we'll have 10 at that point, and any extras will be used in GBT. As for time lost from not having Goron Rolling, I think not switching masks will make up for a lot of it, the exception being the early Swamp. However, as far as I can tell, this route also uses fewer SoSes, which will save 25 seconds per use. And as you said, ESS reduces the time lost. And yes, I have no idea how we missed using the fairy fountains. I even saw their scene file while looking for the grottos' one, and I still didn't put it together that we could use it there.

Posted: 2/9/2009 8:31 AM

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petrie911

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Posts: 635

Comicalflop wrote:

If it's faster, than yes. However, skipping items at the cost of time is only reserved for low% runs.

But of course. However, I think this will be faster. After looking at previous runs, getting the Goron Mask takes 6 minutes. The Goron Race takes 2 minutes, and the extra trip to Pinnacle Rock takes 3 minutes. So, unless the other time lost adds up to more than 5 minutes, it looks like this should be faster.

Posted: 2/9/2009 4:15 AM

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petrie911

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I said that Woodfall->Snowhead is unappealing because we bypass the Goron Mask. Well, the thought occurs...how necessary is the Goron Mask? Here's a prospective route for GM-less any% Blah Blah first cycle stuff Song of Double Time Get ECT chest Buy Bomb Bag and 20c Go to Swamp (non-warping method) Get witches' bottle Use non-Goron Mask boat skip Get Sonata Go to Woodfall Hit statue Get Bow Leave, warp to CT Go to Ranch Hover into Ranch Get Ranch Bottle Warp back to CT Buy 10 more chus Get Zora Mask Get Hookshot+2 Zora Eggs Deposit Eggs Go back for the other 2 Deposit them Get 2 Eggs from Pinnacle Rock Go back for the last egg from Pinnacle Rock Get NWBN Go to South Bay Do GBT Warp to CT Buy 20 chus Warp to Woodfall Complete Woodfall Go to Woodfall's Fairy Shrine Wrong Warp to Snowhead Do Snowhead Warp to CT Buy 20 chus Head to Stone Tower Climb up Stone Tower Warp to CT, 20 more chus Complete Stone Tower Warp to CT Moon Note that WW to Snowhead can be done with just 15 chus. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHAvF3ZdImk Time Lost -Extra trip to Pinnacle Rock -No Goron Rolling through Swamp -Some Snowhead rooms go slower -Any time lost from not having Goron Rolling Time Gained -Don't have to get Goron Mask -Don't have to do Goron Race -No extra SoT I'm thinking this actually works out in favor of skipping the Goron mask. Please tell me if I missed anything.

Posted: 2/8/2009 5:51 AM

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petrie911

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As I posted in the comments, we still need the Sonata to get into Woodfall. So NCT->Woodfall doesn't seem more attractive than Termina Field->Palace Garden. And NCT->Woodfall also bypasses the bottle. That being said, Woodfall->Snowhead is intriguing, especially when you consider where it puts you. But you'd need the Goron Mask first, and once you have that, you're already in Mountain Village. Would make skipping the Goron Mask somewhat easier...perhaps. South Bay->Ikana is a maybe, but you'd have to refill explosives somehow, as you won't have enough to climb Stone Tower.

Posted: 1/30/2009 5:59 PM

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petrie911

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did anyone ever figure out that thing where you get a colored tunic without going to the color dungeon? Anyways, fun videos. Some of the stuff I already knew, but I played this game to death, too. LA is very underrated among Zelda games.

Posted: 1/28/2009 8:28 PM

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petrie911

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Tub wrote:

petrie911 wrote:
Metroid Prime--Sub-hour, anyone? [..] Also, a 21% TAS might be possible, as it seems the people at m2k2 were close.
Less should be possible abusing the "secret worlds" (or whatever they call OOB travel). Why should a TAS subject itself to unassisted speedrunner's restrictions?

I don't think most secret worlds save any time in Prime. Ice Beam before Flaaghra was the only one I remember being discussed over at m2k2. If you're talking about lowering %, the only theory of 21% currently involves OoB, but it is extremely unlikely that the % could get any lower. Oh, and SDA lifted the OoB ban.

Posted: 1/28/2009 6:45 PM

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petrie911

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Melee--We've seen what's possible in Perfect Control, and all of it was very awesome. Brawl--Sure, why not? Metroid Prime--Sub-hour, anyone? Not needing to use save stations alone nets a small advantage, but a small advantage may be all that's needed. Also, a 21% TAS might be possible, as it seems the people at m2k2 were close. Metroid Prime 2/3--Sounds fun. I think we could manage a lower percent than 16 on MP2E. Sonic Adventure 2: Battle--I so want to TAS this. Having speedran it, I want to know the limit. All the other Sonic games--They all seem like they would look very good if TAS'd. Except maybe Shadow, but that could hardly be helped. Twilight Princess--Lots of neat glitches here and skippable cutscenes. Wind Waker's lack of these will probably make it less suited to TAS. Mario Sunshine--It may not be Mario 64, but it seems just as suited to TASing Mario Galaxy--I can just imagine the absurd gravity tricks a TAS could pull. Or maybe I can't. But it still seems like it'd be great. Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn--Although we already sort of have one at SDA. The other FE would be good, too. Okami--I just like it Trauma Center (all)--Somehow I find the idea of trying to do surgery as fast as possible very funny. Plus I'd love to see the X missions TASed. I still can't even beat X-1. Zelda: Master Quest--Oh, wait... Anyways, that's all I can think of.

Posted: 1/21/2009 6:34 PM

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petrie911

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So, is there a Youtube/other encoded version of this run yet?

Derakon wrote:

the fact that TASes are supposed to show superhuman control is already playing the game outside the manner the game creators intended. (speaking of which, you're going to have a hell of a time telling me which order of obtaining the Vlad items is intended. or better yet, telling me the intended route for Super Metroid.)
You'll note that I made several references to the Metroid series as a series where there wasn't an obvious intended order. Thus the type of run I'm proposing here wouldn't make sense for Metroid. Similarly, as you pointed out, there's no significant barriers to progress in the upside-down castle, and thus no intended order there, so whatever order the TASer wants to pick there is fine.

There wasn't an obvious intended order for SM? It seemed fairly clear the intended order was getting everything up to bombs in the usual manner, getting supers from Spore Spawn, getting High Jump, then Varia, then heading through east Norfair for Wave and Speed Boost, then going through west Norfair to get to Crocomire, the Power Bombs, and Grapple. You get the Ice beam now if you didn't get it before west Norfair, then head up to the Wrecked Ship for Gravity, through Maridia for the Space Jump, giving you access to Lower Norfair. The Screw Attack is supposed to get you through the room full of bomb blocks, getting you to Ridley. Then, obviously, Mother Brain. Really, just because they didn't try/care to SB-proof the game well doesn't mean there wasn't an intended order.

Posted: 1/20/2009 3:19 PM

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petrie911

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Twelvepack wrote:

brawl above the other two titles in the smash series is proof enough that the list is made by retarded monkeys. all further proof is optional.

Brawl>64 seems like a fairly easy argument to make. I won't touch the can of worms that is Brawl vs Melee, though.

Posted: 1/19/2009 6:15 PM

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petrie911

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45. The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask WHAT!? How dare they not make this number 1. I mean, everyone knows this is the best game ever created. What? It's just me? Oh. Well, nevermind then. 44. Fire Emblem Which one? And IMO, Radiant Dawn>Blazing Sword; Radiant Dawn>Ankoku no Ryo, too, but despite my previous sentence that's probably not what they're referring to. Which brings up a more serious point. Mother 3 easily deserves a high spot on that list.

Posted: 1/5/2009 7:13 PM

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petrie911

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As far as I can tell, we only save 1 SoS doing Snowhead/Ranch/Fortress without bombchus. Meanwhile, that costs us 19 bomb hovers, ~65s. A SoS is ~25s, and SoS+bomb shop is ~45s. Add that to melting the ice and taking the stairs, and I think you've got a fairly large time deficit which won't be made up through rupee collecting savings. BTW, a dedicated trip to the Bomb shop (ie, warp in, go to bomb shop, warp out) costs ~63 seconds, while a bomb hover costs ~3.5 seconds. Thus, as long as you use all 20 chus, a dedicated bomb shop trip is worth it. On a 100% related note, as I make mild amounts of progress on cycle 3 of the 100% run (there's SO MUCH to do), I figured I'd take a look into what we actually need for the 4 dungeons, which will be taking up a lot of the cycle and largely determine how the cycle will be structured. And what better way to find the ideal route through a dungeon than to TAS it. So I give you the first of these, ie, Stone Tower. Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-Wa1ONgAo4 Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AN-fsVYAUg Things of note: --With a bit more judicious bombchu use, we should be able to get it down to 20 chus and still not have to do any bomb hovers. This means we can stock ourselves up to 40 chus before Ikana and not have to warp back to the bomb shop. --Fire Arrows are needed, so STT must come after Snowhead. --Elegy of Emptiness (and thus Mirror Shield) must be gotten before you do the east wing of the Inverted Tower. --takes ~9hr game time (~3hr slowed game time) --Using Fire/Ice Arrows on Twinmold isn't faster than using the Giant's Mask. Since Ice Arrows are used nowhere else, STT>GBT has no downside. oh, and while I was doing this, I found this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPbUZKe1FIo You can watch the losslessly encoded version here, but it's not what you'd think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAjs31YeHj8

Posted: 12/24/2008 12:19 AM

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petrie911

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Slowking wrote:

I don't know if the jump would be far enough, but if it is it should save some time...

That gap's way too far to clear. Also, about your proposed route from before. Hookshot>Beaver race doesn't work due to the whole Bottle>Hookshot requirement. Bow>Hookshot also puts a damper on that Anyways, to settle the route issue, we need to A) figure out the ideal method for the current route, B) figure out the ideal method for the alternate route, C) figure out all the places they differ, and D) get time estimates for those places so we can figure out which is faster. I'll start with the current route. First cycle stuff. Have 280 rupees by the end of the cycle OR 180+ECT chest. Buy 20c/bomb bag, WW to lens of truth Get Goron Mask SoT Buy 20c/bombs Go to Swamp w/ Skull Kid cutscene skip Get Koume's Bottle Go to Deku Palace Get Sonata of Awakening Head to Woodfall Get SoS Open and Enter temple Get bow Leave for CT Buy 10c* Go to Great Bay Get Zora Mask Get Hookshot and 1 egg Go to Mountain Village Do Snowhead Goron Race Finish Woodfall Ranch Sell Gold Dust, buy 20c Head to Ikana Go up to Stone Tower Back to CT for 20c more Stone Tower Temple Go to North Bay Get the remaining 6 Eggs NWBN, GBT Hover into Clock Tower Moon New route First cycle stuff, 290r in bank OR 190+ECT chest Double time to Night of the First Day Buy 20c/bomb bag Go to Deku Palace via wrong warp Get Sonata Go to Woodfall Get SoS Open and Enter Temple Get Bow Warp to CT, buy 20c more Wrong Warp to Lens of Truth Get Goron Mask, warp to CT, buy 20c more* Ranch time Head to Great Bay. Double time when dawn breaks Zora Mask, Hookshot, first egg Snowhead Gold Dust Finish Woodfall CT; sell Gold Dust, buy 20c To Ikana Go to STT entrance, back to CT for 20c more Finish STT Go to Southern Swamp for Witches' Bottle Warp to North Bay Eggs, GBT, etc Back to CT Moon If anyone has any other routes/modifications to the above, please say so. Also, manipulation of rupees before the starred lines would save rupees, so how much can be done there would be good to know. Anyways, next step is to make a list of differences among the routes and see how they time out.

Posted: 12/15/2008 9:10 PM

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petrie911

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Not getting the Scarecrow's song doesn't save time because we wouldn't get it anyways. SL found that you could hit that torch from the ground floor. This puts the route into more questionable territory. While I don't immediately like the idea of getting rupees from the pre-CT part, as it means SL would have to start over again, it would give us an excellent opportunity to see if stories with grandma is faster than just dancing with pierre 5 times.

Posted: 12/14/2008 8:06 AM

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petrie911

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Hmm...could work. We'll be short on chus for Snowhead, so there'll be a lot of pure bomb hovering. Staircasing them a bit can alleviate that, but we'll need to figure out where chus are really needed. This reduces our chu count to 50, which costs 200r. Couple that with the bomb bag, and we need 250r on the first cycle. We can be short some and still be OK, but not too much. EDIT: scratch that, I think we could get away with 210 rupees, with the 200 we get from the gold dust covering the rest. Provided we get 12r by the end of Snowhead, we could actually use the 198 rupees Swordless got in his first WIP. The other concern is whether there's enough time to do all that. We definitely want to avoid using Inverted Time. EDIT: It appears getting up that one room of Snowhead takes 8 hovers. That's not the greatest.

Posted: 12/14/2008 3:42 AM

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petrie911

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The bay gossips are close to the WCT exit. Bay heart is right next to the fence. The gossip stone pit you refer to is the "Swamp Gossips". I can only assume what you refer to as CT gossips is the Ikana gossips, near the Observatory. I'm not wholly sure if what you suggest is necessarily faster. The direct warp to the Deku Palace is nice, of course, but the witches' bottle is just so convenient. The Ranch bottle is the only possible substitute, of course. If we wait to get the witches' bottle, we have the option of getting it after Stone Tower, which would no doubt be convenient. But then we are forced to get the Ranch bottle first. Double timing gets us to the night of the first day, of course, but where to go from there. Bay first takes too long and adds SoSes. Swamp first makes the wrong warp glitch pointless. Mountains first is feasible, but getting out would take too long without SoS. Ikana is pointless without the hookshot. Hmmm...difficult. As nice as it would be to warp to the Deku Palace, I can't think of a way to do it that is obviously faster. Perhaps... Double time wrong warp to Palace, get stuff up to Woodfall 1, back to CT wrong warp to Lens of truth cave. Goron Mask get. Ranch (I don't think we've taken enough time) Hookshot Snowhead Race Finish woodfall Sell Dust (again, not enough time. Double time again?) Ikana Witch bottle egg stuff GBT end This might work. We'll be using up 60 chus (240 rupees) and one bomb bag (50 rupees), which means we'll need to start the cycle with at least 290 rupees. Doable, of course, but will it be faster? On another note, if we can get into the grave on the third night without the captain's hat, that might be a better bottle than the ranch Lastly, I have determined what the final unknown grotto is. It is the Hot Spring in the frozen lake. Unfortunately, it cannot be used to warp there.

Posted: 12/13/2008 5:10 AM

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petrie911

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Slowking wrote:

The major problem that I overlooked is that the witches bottle is needed far earlier than I thought initially. So it won't work. Maybe at some point somebody can make somethign of it. It yould certainly be nice to have in a run. Why did nintendo have to put those spit-things in the direction of the Deku palace? It doesn't make any sense in a normal game run. Sorry that I compiled a long post of rubbish, but when I was writing it I was sure it would work. Oh well. I hope at least my timing the length of the cutscenes was of some help...

Ah, yes, the hookshot. I knew there was a reason I'd completely discounted the wrong warp to Deku Palace, but I couldn't quite remember it. Anyways, if you'll check out the 100% run I posted a few pages back, it uses the wrong warp to the Deku Palace. Cutscene length timing was very useful. We now know that being in the field when the tower strikes 12 is a serious time loss. On a different note, for your viewing pleasure... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7xIiMO6ZcE

Posted: 12/13/2008 3:36 AM

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petrie911

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The Dodongo cavern is not open on the top. Bay Gossips are probably your best bet. I suppose it's only 10 extra chus, since we won't be using the skull kid cutscene. Leaves no chus for Woodfall 1. The Inn chest + 2 99r field trips would be sufficient for rupees. You don't save a huge amount of time goron rolling, as Woodfall is further from the witches hut than the entrance to the swamp. On the other hand, you don't have to roll back to the tourist shop. Hmm...it's really hard to say...but I don't think it will end up being advantageous.

Posted: 12/9/2008 5:00 AM

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petrie911

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dunnius wrote:

It depends whether it ends up being the fastest way to get an extra 99 (or 100) rupees. I don't know how many rupees this run will require or where other rupees will be collected, but it may be the case that it is better to wait to get more rupees later because it will be faster to do so.

We need 240 rupees before leaving CT on the 2nd cycle. The only thing that can compete is the ECT chest, which I think will be slower.

dunnius wrote:

The midnight cutscene only happens in South Clock Town or Termina Field. So the fastest way to skip the cutscene is to be transitioning to South Clock Town at midnight. Another way is inside the Clock Tower where the mask salesman is, though time stops in there so I don't know if that would work.

Actually, during a normal cycle, the midnight cutscene only plays in SCT. However, during the first cycle, the midnight cutscene plays no matter where you are. A different one plays if you're in Termina Field, but even if you're (somehow) in STT, the scene still plays.