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Go home bamboo boss, you're drunk.
It seems you can deny the game from switching the boss's sprites over to the appropriate set by constantly spamming it with changes to both player sprites (like tapping a direction every other frame). Time to see how far I can take this without sacrificing the integrity of the run.
Current Project: Pocky & Rocky (SNES) improvements
Status: Stage 2 - fighting the octopus
Frames improved so far: 577
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Thanks for the encouragement! Time has been a little scarce the last few days, but I've managed to figure out a solid route to the first cyclops so far. Once I get the two double dashes leading up to him optimized to my liking (they're very nearly there, but wow that vertical section is a pain to cleanly bounce through), the rest should progress smoothly. That, and I'm really hoping my ideas for some fun on the raft work out like I think they will.
PJ wrote:
It's so cool to see some of the double dashes Mr. K and I came up with for real-time runs being used in the TAS. ^_^ Can't wait to see the other stages!
Your co-op video has been an excellent point of reference so far. I'll still be making improvements where I can, but you can certainly expect to see a few more of those dashes (or something very closely resembling them) being put to use in the stages to come. The setup and resulting path on some of them are too good to pass up.
CoolKirby wrote:
For hard-to-optimize parts like the horizontal section in this level, I recommend giving it a few good tries and then moving on with your best attempt. One annoying section isn't worth losing your motivation for the whole run.
Yep, that's more or less how I'm going to be approaching this one. I'm trying to get this to be as perfect as possible, but from that area I quickly realized that crunching through all of the possibilities to find the ideal combination of lag reduction and speed in several areas of this game is going to take an inordinate amount of time. I figure that part will be best left to future revisions after I get a competent baseline run completed.
Current Project: Pocky & Rocky (SNES) improvements
Status: Stage 2 - fighting the octopus
Frames improved so far: 577
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You could also grab a cheap USB gamepad (or two). They make for a pretty quick and easy way to assemble your inputs, especially if you have another set of hands at your disposal. If not, the virtual pad definitely helps.
I've been using two of the equivalent of this (from ~8 years ago) to handle 2P SNES duty in BizHawk. If you want something a little closer to the saturn/genesis 6 button layout, the Xbox360 MadCatz Fightpad or similar might work.
Current Project: Pocky & Rocky (SNES) improvements
Status: Stage 2 - fighting the octopus
Frames improved so far: 577
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Active player
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Finished Stage 1 last night. Feel free to let me know if you have any feedback or suggestions.
Link to videobk2 file
Notes:
The first vertical stretch and double dash are fairly straightforward. Minimal kills will cost lag frames, but enough of the enemies spawn late to the point where it seems like you're better off just dashing through.
The first double dash is pretty forgiving and leaves plenty of room to fine-tune how the characters exit it (who's in front, how far apart, etc.) simply by when Pocky starts her half of the dash.
As I mentioned previously, the actions taken on the way to the 2nd double dash don't seem to impact your ability to skip the spawn of the 3rd skeleton adjacent to the sage. Rocky had some frames to spare, so I went ahead and killed the umbrellas that spawn from the well.
From the sage until the stage starts moving vertically again is a positively brutal area in terms of optimization. You're juggling enemy manipulation and sage manipulation while trying to work yourself into a very precise position to avoid the first sage item drop (for minimal health bonus time), grab the second (bomb), and get ready for the next double dash, which is the least forgiving of the stage. If you kill too many skeletons, more will spawn and you'll get wrecked with even more lag frames during the double dash (we're talking a good ~45 additional frames here). Unfortunately I still wound up with a few more lag frames than Mr_K during this sequence (likely on account of a skeleton spawning difference which I haven't figured out yet), but found a more favorable dash path.
The threshold to move the stage vertically again is surprisingly far to the right. Even with as far as my double dash made it, I still had to spend a few frames sending Pocky over to trigger it.
The "zombie hover" pointed out by Mr_K is a really potent move. The player being pushed is essentially executing a brief super dash (complete with invulnerability and damage dealing) and the player doing the pushing gets their dash canceled for free. What's not to love?
Considering how fast the zombie hover goes, you can easily outpace the screen. Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to get past the leading edge, as the game seems to treat it like an invisible wall (won't stop me from occasionally trying though). If you bump the other player into it, they'll bounce off at a 135 degree angle. This is also why you can't just double dash directly forward.
As an alternative to repeatedly zombie hovering one player, you can have both players dash into each other and both will bounce off in the same manner. This may not seem nearly as helpful, but since characters will bounce in the direction opposite their dash and they can collide while dashing in the same direction (if executed simultaneously in very close proximity), you can actually bump both characters forward at the same time. Again, this isn't the fastest way to move (since you'll move backwards for a few frames first), but it's stylish and occasionally helpful if the screen is still trying to catch up to you. I use it twice in the video.
Boss strategy is essentially the same, though getting full damage out of the bomb required much more precise positioning and timing than I expected.
Current Project: Pocky & Rocky (SNES) improvements
Status: Stage 2 - fighting the octopus
Frames improved so far: 577
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Warepire wrote:
Quarantine II - Road Warrior
Would love to see this or even the original. I don't remember how well they flow from start to finish, but I DO remember the amusing premise and manic combination of fast, floaty movement with short draw distances. Assuming it's not too much of a grind fest, it could make for a pretty good run.
Current Project: Pocky & Rocky (SNES) improvements
Status: Stage 2 - fighting the octopus
Frames improved so far: 577
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Patashu wrote:
The impression I get from a description like this is that the memory value (or a block containing it) is dynamically allocated per stage, so you should look for places in memory that hold 7E1050 or any value closely lower than it, and see which of said places in memory change when you change the stage. If so, you've found a 'pointer' that will tell you where it's moved to.
Good point (no pun intended), I have yet to dive into the likes of pointers for this game or the SNES in general. Will most certainly have to track down some reading material. That said, the value held within 7E1050 isn't of any use to us with regards to sages AFAIK (on account of 15 being outside the 0-7 sage value range and never changing with RNG), so even if we did know what pointed to it, it likely wouldn't help.
After some further experimentation though, I think I might have at least found the RNG pattern:
7E0002 (1-byte) is part of a 2-byte frame-based counter and it spins through 0-255 repeatedly during the cutscenes (among other places). After you provide input to skip the cutscene, it will stop 4 frames/increments later. If you divide that final number by 8, you get a remainder equal to what the upcoming sage *should* be.
For example, you hit start on a frame where 7E0002 is 79. The counter will finish incrementing on 83. 83 mod 8 = 3 = Old Man with Fan.
I said "should" earlier because it appears there might be level-specific exceptions to which sages are available. Here's what I've been able to confirm so far:
Stage 1: 0-6 match perfectly and Mandolin Lady (2) fills in on 7
Stage 2: 0-3 match perfectly, but you're stuck with Mushroom Guy (6) on 4-7
EDIT: Stages 1 and 3-5 are all the same. There is no sage AFAIK in 6.
Since 7E0002 resets and resumes at the start of the level, I'm inclined to believe the stage's sage value (by way of that timer value or some mathematical equivalent) is still out there somewhere... just not sure where yet. I'm hoping it's just a matter of time at this point.
Mr_K wrote:
The pause before the next double dash is intentional. It is done to manipulate a skeleton in the bridge area near the sage to disappear. This instantly allows me to trigger the sage and setup the next double dash.
I was a bit worried about executing this in my own run since my 2nd double dash, while being executed in a similar manner, had a different setup and marginally different location/timing. I kept getting all four skeletons over and over and even came up with a way to work around them, but it wasn't pretty. After trying a few different setups and bumping the execution frames around, I actually lucked out with a relatively minor variation on my original/preferred routine. The correct skeleton disappeared and all was well. This really is a critical trick.
After comparing our videos, my best guess at this point is that a well-timed lag frame during fast movement and/or crowded sequences is the cause. The lag frame will hit and skeleton tries to appear at the edge of the screen for the next ~2 frames, but nothing comes of it. I think I've seen similar occur during unrelated testing to other enemies and even some projectiles (generally while solo dashing), so perhaps there is even more potential for this to be abused throughout the game.
Current Project: Pocky & Rocky (SNES) improvements
Status: Stage 2 - fighting the octopus
Frames improved so far: 577
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Anyone still working on this?
I'm thinking about giving this a shot as my first TAS since I'm already familiar with the title (and its sequel) and it's not terribly long. Between everything I've read/watched here and my own venture into the game (~2700 frames and counting), a well-made and entertaining TAS feels attainable.
Definite kudos to Mr_K for the info provided here (and on the co-op w/ PJ run comments over at SDA), it's been immensely helpful in getting started on this game. The only discrepancy I've run into so far is the sage value memory address.
The memory values per sage and the RNG occurring before the start of each level match my observations, but unless my newbishness is causing me to miss something here, the 7E1050 address doesn't look like the right location. I see it go to 15 every time on the first level (regardless of cutscene skip point and resulting sage type), go to 0 as the boss fight starts, and then remain unchanged as the second level starts. I haven't checked it later in the game yet, but I'm guessing it won't be helpful there either.
Unfortunately I have yet to find another location that holds a value like that (or one it may be derived from), but I did find these:
7E120C - active sage value - gets set one frame before the sage appears and is reset to 0 when the sage starts to despawn
7FF200 - similar to the above address but gets set one frame before it and persists until another sage appears or the stage ends
I'll still keep looking periodically, but for now I can get by with manually delaying the cutscene skip and just seeing which sage pops out when the level is run.
One other thought for now:
Dashing a character into the other one while they're standing triggers an individual version of the double dash (provided they have hearts to spend) which I'll just call "super dash" for now. In doing so, the first dash is canceled. If you dash again in the same direction very shortly afterwards (about 3 frames IIRC), you wind up going through the other player and recover on the other side of them while they're still super dashing in the same direction. Basically, this can propel you forward (albeit at a sub-optimal speed) with damage/invulnerability super dash business covering your rear. This definitely isn't a trick for speed (unless you push the other person with no hearts to spend like Mr_K's video), but could provide some good entertainment value if used in the right places.
Current Project: Pocky & Rocky (SNES) improvements
Status: Stage 2 - fighting the octopus
Frames improved so far: 577
Go home bamboo boss, you're drunk.
It seems you can deny the game from switching the boss's sprites over to the appropriate set by constantly spamming it with changes to both player sprites (like tapping a direction every other frame). Time to see how far I can take this without sacrificing the integrity of the run.