Posts for thegreginator

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Posted: 9/4/2006 10:42 PM
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thegreginator
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Okay thanks Fabian. That should work fine. I dont really see a reason why we shouldnt start on this TAS now, skamastaG. It will help us stay sharp with SMW while we're waiting for a good opportunity to get together and record our console run. But keep practicing on console of course. The first level up is YI2, and I think you should do this level since you already know is really well, so just let me know what you think and you can start on it. Also, we might be able to come up with still more options for this level what with the possibilities opened up when doing a TAS and all. We can do what Fabian described and review each other's levels to make sure they're perfect. If either of us are waiting for the other one to do a level we can always "practice" a future difficult level to get the kinks worked out before we get there. So we might want to assign levels to figure out who will be the primary player for each level. And are we 100% sure about the worldmap route? I dont see any problems with it, but it's good to double check. Oh and we're ignoring fadeout lag for this run, right? It doesnt seem worth it to worry about it for such a long run. Fabian, you ignored it for your 96 didnt you?
Posted: 9/4/2006 10:15 PM
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thegreginator
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skamastaG, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by walljumping in DP1. If you mean just running vertically up the green switches, this is nowhere near as cool as doing shell jumps to get up to the key without switches. I think we should just leave the switches out. Honestly, they add nothing to the run and just detract from it in some places. When I was working on some small-only runs for console, there were many places in many levels where I thought it would be much easier with switches, so they ruin entertainment in more levels than you think, even if it's only a small part of the level. I'm not exactly sure how the procedure works for doing a collaborative run. Do we just go in order, like you do YI2, then when you finish that I do YI3, or can I work on YI3 while you're working on YI2 (just an example)? I guess the latter wouldnt really make sense, but I dont know. It seems like we wont be able to "split up" to make better progress if I have to wait for you to finish YI2 before I can start on YI3, as this would just be like a single person doing the run. Fabian and JXQ, how did you guys do it for SDW? EDIT: Wow another pagebreak. I'm on a roll. ;)
Posted: 9/4/2006 5:20 PM
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thegreginator
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Yeah. And I thought I was the only one who hated 6/5. ;) Well I polished up VD1 gate using the aforementioned 6/5 variation, and I'm pretty pleased with the result. This was a very difficult level to make, due to the lack of open spaces where you can just do the hop glitch. FIRST ROOM: Using 6/5 on the way to picking up the first shell is faster than using hopping glitch to the shell and regaining p-meter afterwards. The shell grab looks sloppy, but I pressed backwards for the minimum possible number of frames. Could this be improved perhaps by changing the oscillation speed to make it slower just before you jump on the shell so you dont have to turn around as much? In the "tunnel" with the 3 beetles, the first beetle kill didnt require a turn-around, but the second one did for some reason. Again, it was minimized, and might be able to be impoved by oscillation abuse, not sure if this is possible. I dont exactly know the best pipe-enterting technique or if there is something special involved, but I just used trial and error until I got the best time. SECOND ROOM: Medium speed hop glitching up the slope is faster than jumping over it while pressing forward (since your p-meter completely runs out in midair), or running up it. THIRD ROOM: This room just about drove me crazy. The beetle throw through the two blocks should be optimal. I couldnt start hop glitch right as I got p-run after the beetle throw because if you use hop glitch when you fall down the gap and go to jump again, you wont make it under the cement block with the spinys on it. I started hop glitch as soon as I had made it underneath this block. If you take the top route, you must start hop glitch a bit later, because you cant do it until after you're past the blue block. For some reason, you cant grab this block while hopping in a one square area, even if you press X/Y every frame, the block just stops you. I am able to grab a block while hopping later in the level, but this is not in a one square area. Getting up that steep slope toward the end was a huge pain, every single time I tried I ended up not making it under the ceiling of the passage the slope leads to. I have no idea how I finally got it. After doing this level, I feel like I am ready to take on anything, so shall we decide how we're going to divide up the levels skamastaG?
Posted: 9/4/2006 4:40 PM
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thegreginator
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Yeah you're right jimsfriend, 6/5 is the ideal cycle. But I think there are times this cycle should be broken, right before you touch the ground. Say you're 16 frames from the ground and you're just starting the "6" phase. You do that, and then the 5 phase, and now you're 5 frames from the ground (with a full p-meter). You cant start the 6 phase, however, because then your p-meter will be depleted upon landing. So the only option really is to hold forward for those 5 frames, which seems like a waste because your p-meter is already charged. A better alternative would be to press nothing (and get 49) during the first two of those 5 frames and then press forward for the other 3. A 49, 49, ->, ->, -> combo is better than just a -> x5 combo, and both give you a full p-meter before you land. Depending on how far you are from the ground and where you are in the cycle, there might be times when you get 3, maybe even 4 "extra" 49s if you break the cycle. I am right about this? I dont see why it wouldnt work.
Posted: 9/4/2006 3:56 AM
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thegreginator
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Thanks andrewg. Hopefully this run will be done soon. I have a question about using 6/5. When using 6/5, it works fine in the air, but when you touch the ground, your p-meter has to be fully charged or 6/5 wont work on the next jump. So if you touch the ground while in the "6" phase (with an uncharged p-meter), this will ruin 6/5 for the next jump. To avoid this, couldnt you just keep your speed at 49 the whole time you're in the air and then just press forward a little before you hit the ground, with just enough time to get your p-meter up to 112 before touching? It would vary how long you'd need to press forward before hitting the ground depending on how depleted your p-meter is, but it could be determined with trial and error. So it would be 12/10 or 24/20 or whatever, depending on your air time and p-meter. This should just average out to being the same as 6/5, but without having to worry about whether you touch ground during the "6" phase, right? Am I missing something?
Posted: 9/3/2006 9:51 PM
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thegreginator
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Nice job on that 291 skamastaG. I just tried a TAS of CI5, a deceptively hard level. I experimented with a number of different options, but should have the fastest strategy. In the first room I keep the oscillation at 37 while falling because this doesnt affect p-meter buildup. My route here should result in getting p-run as soon as possible. After the p-switch jump, it's pointless to have a speed of 49 because you have to press left to not overshoot the pipe anyways. In the second room, doing a medium speed hop glitch over the pipes is 4 frames faster than running across the pipes to get p-run a bit earlier. I made a video of VD1 gate which looked really cool but decided that it could be improved a bit so I'll work on an improved version before I post it.
Posted: 9/3/2006 3:08 AM
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thegreginator
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Hopping glitch is fun! I just did a demo of Vanilla Secret 3 to practice TASing. Note that I dont aim for entertainment in this video, just speed. Does this video look fully optimized? I experimented with several different ways to do the end, and I think I chose the fastest option, unless anyone knows something faster.
Posted: 9/2/2006 9:11 PM
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thegreginator
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Thanks AzHP. Using that knowledge, I just did YI2 in the same number of frames as JXQ. I think I'm getting the hang of this. :) I did perfect corner boosts on both info blocks and it didnt save any time, unfortunately. EDIT: Sorry jimsfriend, I took another of your pagebreaks. ;)
Posted: 9/2/2006 8:44 PM
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thegreginator
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Fabian, I know exactly what you're saying. English is the only language I speak (besides a little Spanish) and this happens to me a lot too. Not so much with JXQ's stuff, but with some other music I listened to. If you read the lyrics as you're listening though, that should eliminate the problem.
Posted: 9/2/2006 4:27 PM
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thegreginator
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I'v been trying to practice recording and I have a problem. How do you use savestates while recording? When you try to set a savestate while recording, it acts as a movie snapshot. How do you avoid this?
Posted: 9/1/2006 10:59 PM
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thegreginator
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I just listened to the whole album and read the lyrics. Here is a rough order of the songs I liked most to the songs I liked least. What's Up Knowledge Goodbye You's a Hoe Relentless Dear Kitana On Your Mark As I Write Feel My Fury How It's Done My Voice Infinity Hip-Hop's a Bitch Tonight I think your lyrics were definately the best part of this album. Sometimes your beats and background music just didnt do justice to these lyrics. You can be original and have catchy beats at the same time. Take Eminem for example, his songs are very catchy and have good beats, but are still original and still have a message (well most of them). Sometimes it felt like you were going out of your way to not sound like mainstream rap. The instumental sections were nice, but didnt always match up with the mood and tempo of the song. As far as the lyics, they were excellent. It's good to hear some rap that actually has a message behind it and isnt just about bling and bitches. Ironically, Whats Up was the song that sounded the best, but had the least meaningful lyrics. Coincidence? The rhyming and rhythm were really good as well. I especially liked the parts of Feel My Fury where you were saying two things at once but they still matched up. Overall, good album. I'm glad you've stayed true to yourself, and I look forward to any future releases.
Posted: 8/30/2006 11:19 PM
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thegreginator
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I was wrong about your Star World, you did do it in 16 movements so it is the fastest possible way. For VoB4, the route I posted wont work because there is no pathway for the C#7-->VGH movement, so we can just use your route. What did you come up with for the improved FoI route (as far as entertainment)? I think we should do YI1 after Special World so Yoshis Island is more spread out. Also, this way we wont start off the run with a long boring map movement (up to the Switch Palace and back), which might just confuse some viewers as to why we ignored the Switch Palace.
Posted: 8/30/2006 4:46 AM
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thegreginator
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Nice, looks pretty solid to me. Star World can be be ideally done in 16 movements if you do it all at once, and you did it in 17. I think this extra movement is unavoidable though since your route does not have Star World done all at once (which is a good thing). We need to make sure we get this perfect since there's nothing worse than realizing you could've done the worldmap faster after you're done with the run. I think this might be just about perfect though. For Valley of Bowser, I thought of an alternate route that has the same number of movements as yours. Mine is SGS, VoB1, VoB2 gate, VGH gate, VoB3, VoB4 gate, C#7, VGH key, VoB2 key, VF, Back Door. We can choose out of these two which has the better level sequence and looks more entertaining (same goes for FoI, several routes are possible there).
Posted: 8/30/2006 1:59 AM
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thegreginator
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Okay I'm going to call CBA impossible. This means we need to think about some route planning on the overworld map, since we cant get into Star World via Soda Lake and follow the traditional route. What would be the fastest overworld map movement with this in mind? Also remember SW1 cant be beaten and might create a minor roadblock.
Posted: 8/29/2006 3:11 AM
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thegreginator
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skamastaG, I have been messing around with SW3 and I have found a slightly different and faster strategy. Just kill the lakitu as fast as possible, but have a block with you when you get into his cloud. When you go through the wall, immediately jump out of the lakitu cloud as soon as you can do so with your speed being 52. While doing a 52 hop glitch, throw the block at the key box from the left, and have a jump land you on top of the key that has just come out. Do a keyjump when you land on the key and continue 52 speed hop glitch to the keyhole. I know you said you were just showing the strategy, but using a block and jumping out of the cloud right away is kind of a different strategy than what was in the video. And by the way, when you are going through the "cement" blocks and you try to jump out of the cloud you die, so this eliminates exiting the key room in VoB4 via the cement blocks as a possibilty. Even though there's no known way to get into the key room anyways.
Posted: 8/29/2006 2:04 AM
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thegreginator
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Bladegash, thanks for the info. That explains why it happened on SW3 for me, I was probably messing around with blocks and had them all stacked up near the gate or something. EDIT: I just tried messing around with the L and R scrolling to try and get more sprites on the screen, but it didnt work. Even if the scrolling did work, I dont think there would be enough sprites to make the goal disappear anyway, it takes quite a few. I tested on SW3 and had about 6 on the screen and it still wasnt enough. So unfortunately, I dont think making the tape disappear will work, unless there is another way to initiate the disapperance or a way to get more sprites on the screen.
Posted: 8/29/2006 1:41 AM
(Edited: 8/29/2006 1:50 AM)
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thegreginator
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Ok if you say so. Put VoB4 on the impossible list. (EDIT: This was in response to jimsfriend). I just thought of something for CBA. When I was messing around on console a while back, I somehow made it so that the bar at the end gate did not appear. This meant that you can walk in and out of the gate and nothing would happen, it's like the gate isnt even there. I have no idea what circumstances are necessary for this to happen, but I know that it has happened before. If I remember correctly, this glitch has happened to skamastaG as well. I remember specifically that this has occured in SW3, but I think it's also happened another time in a different level. Does anyone know anything about is glitch or how to make it happen? Hopefully if this glitch does work, it wont remove the bar from the second gate as well. I think maybe you can regenerate the bar if you just go off screen, though. EDIT to DK64_MASTER: I dont see how you could possibly push the key out. I dont think you could go under ala Fabian either because there's no way to prevent yourself from falling to your death, in the unlikely event that you could get under the ground. The only feasible option would be going through either the wall or the "ceiling," but apparently this is impossible as well.
Posted: 8/29/2006 1:15 AM
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thegreginator
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I still dont want to give up on CBA, though I think you might be right. The option is still there for anyone who wants to try it and prove me wrong, though. I havent even looked at VoB4, so I dont want to call that impossible yet. One thing that comes to mind is somehow getting into the wall from the right, since it kills you from the left (or vice versa, I cant exactly remember). Then you could do something with a shell, spring, or key to get yourself back out. Since there are many items invloved here, there are many possibilities that need testing out. Lakitu clouds and p-balloons are definately allowed. Whether or not they fit the dictionary defination of "powerup" is irrelevent. In fact, here's a list of what is and isnt allowed. Allowed (includes but is not limited to the following): P-Switch P-Balloon Lakitu Cloud Coins, Yoshi Coins, 1-up Mushrooms, 3-up Moons Shells, Keys, Springs, Baby Yoshis Any and all enemies can be used in any way possible Not Allowed: Switch Palaces Mushroom, Fireflower, Cape Feather Getting midway gates Starman Sitting on a Yoshi Some of the "allowed" ones are obvious, but I thought I'd try to cover everything. "Not allowed" items can appear on the screen as long as they are not collected/used (except Switch Palace blocks, they can never appear, even if they arent used).
Posted: 8/29/2006 12:25 AM
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thegreginator
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I've been working on Cheese Bridge Area a lot lately and I've come pretty close to making it. It is really frustrating becuase I've come so close but I just cant seem to make it, no matter what I do. This video shows what happens almost every single time I try. This picture shows the closest I've come without activating the gate. Would 6/5 help at all for this? I have not been doing this, and I think it might be able to provide an extra boost. Do you even need to use 6/5 to grab onto the rope? Can you do it with keeping a 49 hop glitch and no p-meter? Maybe you could just start the hop glitch at 49 after you jump off the rope (and 6/5 up until this point). Anyone want to try this?
Posted: 8/28/2006 5:17 AM
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thegreginator
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Hahaha. Cheese Bridge Area. But I liked your ideas much better. ;)
Posted: 8/28/2006 5:13 AM
(Edited: 8/28/2006 5:23 AM)
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thegreginator
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DK64_MASTER wrote:
Case closed.
Phew. 27 posts later, and we are right where we started, with no Switch Palaces allowed. Sorry everyone. At least we got 2 good rules out of it. Now, lets move on to CBA, shall we? :)
Posted: 8/28/2006 5:06 AM
(Edited: 8/28/2006 5:11 AM)
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thegreginator
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Okay here is what I suggest for a goal descption. They are in order of importance, so the first condition has presedence over the second if the two contradict each other. 1. Does not collect any powerups. 2. Completes every level possible. Now the definition of "powerup" can be manipulated to fit the needs of this run. The question of "is a switch a powerup?" doesnt really matter since it can be argued either way. The question that matters is "do we want a switch be consider a powerup?", since no matter the answer it could be justified. This should take the semantics of what is and isnt a powerup out of this discussion. I feel that the "officiality" of the run (and to a lesser extent speed, although that is alread compromised by Rule 1 anyway) is what is driving the pro-switch argument. Added entertainment is what is driving the anti-switch argument. I'm starting to think that entertainment is in fact more important than officiality. EDIT: I missed like three posts. Since I was pretty much the only person arguing for swiches and I have changed my mind, is it case closed? I think having Rules 1 and 2 clear up any confusion about this run, as long as the fact that switches are considered a powerup is specified.
Posted: 8/28/2006 4:49 AM
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thegreginator
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DK64_MASTER wrote:
I meant the former for sure. Would using them at all (even touching them) be an improvement to a character ability?
Definately not. Think of this: for CI3, a shell is used as temporary solid ground for Mario to jump off of, getting him somewhere he wouldnt normally be able to reach. Switches fit the exact same definaition, they are, like a shell, just added solid ground to aid Mario. If you dont think the platform created by the switches should be allowed, you might as well outlaw shell jumps as well. And here we going, spiraling away... You need to keep the definaition rigid and straightforward. You cant (dis)allow some things and not others. The only rule for this is that you cannot collect a powerup. Switches are not a powerup. And I dont think anyone would get mad if a p-balloon was not considered a power either. It is in them same class of items as a p-switch, which is allowed. I'm just gonna throw a list of stuff out there to help reduce confusion: Not allowed: Mushroom Fireflower Feather/Cape "Adult" Yoshi Star Allowed: Everthing else. This is the easiest way to classify the run: a concrete list that cannot be disputed. EDIT: JXQ I didnt see your post. You make a pretty good point. Ahh I hate this debate. Now I think I might change my mind.
Posted: 8/28/2006 4:30 AM
(Edited: 8/28/2006 4:53 AM)
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thegreginator
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DK64_MASTER wrote:
So include the switch palaces, just don't use them.
When you say dont use them, do you mean dont hit them to collect mushrooms/capes from them or dont walk on them? If you mean the latter, it would look weird to have the switches there and not use them for levels like VD1 and SW4. If you mean the former, I agree.
Posted: 8/28/2006 4:10 AM
(Edited: 8/28/2006 4:13 AM)
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thegreginator
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Yes thats true. So I guess SW4 wouldnt be quite as entertaining, but it is a tool-assisted speedrun. I think the timesaver by getting the switches there is big enough to justify the short lack of entertainment it would cause. Plus 4 more exits, not pointlessly restricting the run, yada yada yada. EDIT: I really havent been considering the route that much because I've been assuming it will follow Fabian's more or less, but if CBA is impossible it would mean a different entrance to Star World, which would affect the switches present there. So I guess we need to know about CBA before we think too much about switches.
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