Posts for thegreginator

Posted: 8/28/2006 4:03 AM
(Edited: 8/28/2006 4:08 AM)

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

I still stand by my statement that Switch Palaces should be included. If they are included, maybe 4 seconds of "entertainment" would be sacrificed (see third paragraph). I think getting 4 more exits is worth the 4 seconds. I'm sure there will be plently of crazy stunts like the CI3 thing that have nothing to do with Switch Palaces (or lack thereof) anyway, so they will make up for it.

DK64_MASTER wrote:

Yeah, yeah, we all know that's what the run should be like, but the question is how do you put that into a short, succint blurb, like Fabian was trying to do (e.g. "never gets a powerup")? If you can't put it into a blurb, the chances are that the definition is going to be "loose" and generate some discussion/controversy.

I agree with this. Our run should be able to have a short bullet point explaining the restriction such as "only uses small Mario" or "does not collect powerups." I would argue that a Switch Palace is not considered a powerup. Having "only uses small Mario AND doesnt get any Switch Palacs" doesnt sound right, and it seems that one resitriction is enough for a run. As I said earlier, adding more and more specific restrictions is a slippery slope. If I understand correctly, people are opposed to using Switch Palaces because they take away entertainmnet value from certain levels, namely SW4 and SW5. Well consider this: Star World is entered before the Blue Switch Palace is reached, and both the Yellow and Green Switch Palaces could be completed after Special World without losing any time. So during Star World, only the Red Switch Palace would be activated, which would do nothing for SW5 and not really change SW4 much. You might be able to go from the left side for SW4 with the red switch platform, but it would still require some kind of shell jump and would still be impressive. So really the whole "Switch Palaces mess up Star World" stand is a non-issue. Thus the only place where entertainment is lost is a small section of DP1 key which would last about 4 seconds. I think 4 exits > 4 seconds.

Posted: 8/28/2006 1:10 AM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

Just based on your second level, I'd say it has a decent enough entertainment value. I would be interested enough to watch the whole thing. I cant see it as being publishable, but if you're doing it for fun it doesnt matter.

Posted: 8/28/2006 1:04 AM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

Awesome CI3 jimsfriend. I have been thinking about this run, and I think disallowing Switch Palces is a pointless restriction for it. Sure it makes some levels harder, but that is not the goal of this run. The goal of this run is to complete as many levels as possible with small Mario, which is in direct conflict with leaving out Switch Palaces. This would create 4 exits that we would pass up for no good reason. If we start saying things like "small only with no switch palaces," we might as well say "no using spinjumps or getting Yoshi coins" or something like that. I dont want this run to turn into a concept demo, I want it to just be a simple low% run without lots of extra pointless rules. When people watch the run, they will wonder why the Switch Palaces are skipped, and there would be no good reason to give them. I think that the Switch Palaces should be done. Does anyone else have thoughts on this? If Switch Palaces are done, the only levels I can think of that would be significantly affected would be SW4 key and SW5 key (for SW5 you could make the block snake take you up to the switch block rows and just run across, which would make the level much faster). As far as what levels are possible or not: I dont want to jump to conclusions and say that CBA (and SL) and VoB4 are impossible. We used to think FoI3 key was impossible too, but jimsfriend found away around that and the same might be able to be done for VoB4. CBA hasnt been tested enough to just consider it impossible right off the bat (and thus SL as well). I'd be willing to concede that DGH is impossible, although it still wouldnt hurt to do a little testing. The only two that I see absolutely no possibility for beating are the two SW1 exits. So if we do Switch Palaces, the best case scenario is 94 (-SW1 x2) exits and the worst case is 90 (-SW1 x2, CBA, SL, VoB4, DGH) exits.

Posted: 8/27/2006 6:13 PM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

Oh awesome idea Fabian, and awesome executing of it JXQ. Sooo close! I think skamastaG is right that you could jump off the platform a bit later. See this screenshot. You have about 3 pixels room to continue running before you jump. That way, once you jump, you will be closer to the shell and can then jump off of the right side of it, which will make you go a bit further, hopefully far enough to make it. I cant really tell if height or distance is the problem here, but you could always get more height if you do the second shell jump sooner, and more distance if you do it later. There is a balance point somewhere. Almost got it! For SW5, is getting the p-switch the only possible way to make it? In a related question, is it ever possible to walljump off the green pipe to the left? Thats good news about the lakitu cloud Fabian, it could help in a few different places. Thanks a lot everyone, all these demos and testing of new methods will prove very helpful for our TAS. :) EDIT: JXQ's SW5 video is a good example of corner boosting on land when he runs across the grey platforms that are one square apart. There is a noticeable boost if watched in frame advance. EDIT 2: Jumping sooner or later wouldnt actually affect anything. Disregard what I said in the first paragraph.

Posted: 8/27/2006 6:32 AM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

Thanks for the video jimsfriend. I went ahead and made a very crappy demo of the cloud thing but it gets the point across. I mess up a lot, causing my final speed once I start hopping on the ground to be 48 instead of the desired 52. When I first hop out of the could, I start at 51 instead of 52, then lose 2 speed units (which I will call "luigis") on a bad hop glitch on the blocks and lose another luigi when I jump out of the cloud again. I'm not sure if a luigi is lost every time you land in the cloud and then jump back out again, maybe I just did it bad. I'm pretty sure this is the case and it is possible to jump out of the cloud without losing speed, so keeping up a 52 throughout the level is indeed possible. Just hop in and out of the cloud and once it disappears/once you find a way to not jump back into it just do the hop glitch on the ground. I dont know how you're supposed to start flying using this trick though. The only place that it would probably save time would be Sky World 2, in which case it would let you exceed the normal 51 flight speed and get it at the very beginning of the level. For FoI4, I doubt that the time it takes to get into the cloud would be worth getting the one extra luigi for the rest of the level, but I could be wrong. It would probably make FoI4 faster small though (49 vs 52). Also, SW3 small could benefit from this.

Posted: 8/27/2006 5:36 AM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

jimsfriend wrote:

It is impossible, JXQ showed me.

Can someone post this demo of SW5?

Posted: 8/27/2006 1:56 AM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

If you grab the p-switch, you cant use the blocks to cross the level and must wait for that koopa to move to the right. It'd be much faster to just do a shell jump and two walljumps. In, fact, grabbing a shell would slow you down as well, but I dont know if you can make it with walljumps alone. I have been playing CI3 for a very long time, and cant get past the first part (where you kick one shell and catch the other one you have just dropped). The one I drop is always just a little too far ahead of me to reach it, even with frame advance and abusing oscillating speeds. Can someone else try this to see if it is possible?

Posted: 8/26/2006 12:34 AM
(Edited: 8/26/2006 12:41 PM)

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

skamastaG and I have officially decided to do a collaborative small-only TAS of SMW getting the most possible exits (around 90, we dont know the exact number yet). In order to get the most possible exits, it is necessary to beat CI3 (secret exit), because otherwise there would be no way to get to Chocolate Fortress, CI4, and CI5. This would be a shame because it skips a large amount of levels that could otherwise be played if CI3 wasnt blocking the way. I have done a lot of testing on CI3, and I think I have come up with a way to make it work. Here is a picture of it. All the explanation is in the picture. Getting past the gate with two shells is not a problem, so I didnt include how to do that. Note that the color of the shells doesnt matter, it's just for explaining purposes. Every time I have tried this, I have been stopped at the first jump right after the gate. Whenever I release the blue shell, it always kills the red shell. The times is doesnt kill the red shell I overshoot the red shell and miss the kick, just falling off the edge. I think for this to work, oscillating speeds have to be abused (like the p-switch jump in C#1) to better control the speed of the blue shell and Mario. I have tried this, but I just cant get it to work. I was wondering if someone who is better at controlling the oscillating speeds than me could possibly make a demo of this trick to prove whether or not it is possible. It would be a great help. It should be possible, I just dont know how to control the speeds right. I have done the red shell jump perfectly if I just leave the blue shell out completely. The place where you land on the red shell and the distance you get once you jump off that red shell should be pretty much exact in the drawing. It allows you to get far enough to have about 3-4 "squares" of the green ledge in your view. Another problem area for me could be (though I've never gotten that far) the blue shell jump. I am assuming the trick that jimsfriend uses in Misty Isle 2 to get over the pipe can be used here, but I'm not sure. I also have no clue how to do this. Could someone explain it to me or make a demo? Thanks. We are not going to "start" this TAS until we finish our 11 console run, but we are just working on ideas for now. Any other helpful tricks that could be used to beat the levels that are supposed to be "impossible" small would be appreciated. Thanks for your help and input.

Posted: 8/25/2006 1:42 AM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

The video doesnt work for me. The reservations I have about his run are that Yoshis Island would be boring, jimsfriend is doing almost the exact same thing on console, and rules 2-5 dont sound like they'd make it entertaining. But if you want to make it, go ahead.

Posted: 8/25/2006 1:33 AM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

I couldn't get the demo to work, it was a weird format. How do you play it? EDIT: Nevermind. Something similar happens in SMW when you put a shell on a pipe that moves up and down, the shell/koopa gets stuck inside it once it moves up. I've also gotten a koopa stuck fully inside the wall in VD2 by jumping on him (it was a flying one) at the right spot.

Posted: 8/25/2006 1:29 AM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

There arent that many extra levels. In comparison to the 11-exit run, add DGH, DP3, DP4, C2, VD1, and VD2 and subtract SW1. So just 5 more levels, some of which (DP3, VD1, SW4) I think would look pretty cool small if done correctly. If you want to do it, go for it. I would watch it. Good luck with the hop glitch and 6/5. It wouldnt get too old if you did it right. The only part that would be boring would be Yoshis Island, because this has already been TASed capeless several times.

Posted: 8/25/2006 1:23 AM
(Edited: 8/25/2006 1:24 AM)

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

I think you should completely do away with rules 2-5. Watching a run in which no enemies are killed and no coins are collected would be really boring in my opinion. A small-only run (pretty much exactly as you are describing it except there are no rules 2-5) is currently being worked on non-tool over at SDA by jimsfriend. His route involves some TAS-style manuevers such as getting through DP1 (key exit), VD1 (key exit), and VD2 (key exit) without using Switch Palaces. This is the fastest route. I would definately watch this run if, again, rules 2-5 were not there. jimsfriend can probably give you a lot more info than I can. EDIT: Fabian beat me to it with rules 2-5.

Posted: 8/25/2006 12:11 AM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

These videos look sweet jimsfriend. I'm glad that you prefer hopping to flying, I enjoy watching it more. Two questions: 1) Why dont you do hop glitch at the beginning of MI2? I know none of the movies do it, but I dont really understand why. Maybe it has something to with the shell jump? 2) When you remain flying through the first pipe in the castle, why dont you do it the second time as well? Oh and another question about SW5 small: is it possible to do multiple walljumps (in different spots) before hitting the ground? If so, this would be much faster than grabbing the shell and p-switch. Keep up the good work. EDIT: Yeah I agree the topic should stay here. Maybe it could help get SDW some more exposure.

Posted: 8/24/2006 4:42 AM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

jimsfriend, would you mind sharing a little more details about your SDW run? I assume you're doing 120 exits with no restrictions like small only, right? What cool new tricks have you figured out? How are you planning to save time over the current run? I think this SDW run will be really cool, and good luck finishing that small run once and for all.

Posted: 8/24/2006 4:31 AM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

jimsfriend, you're still going to finish your console run though right? I was really looking forward to that. If you are still planning on doing it, how is the progress coming? If not, you should just submit that semi-decent run you had that you posted about on SDA a while back (the one where you got SW4 perfect). Walljumping isnt that hard on console, its more luck than anything else.

Posted: 8/24/2006 2:38 AM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

Its a 96 exit run, and that has been obsoleted by Fabian's new run. If you were impressed by VIPer's, check out Fabian's, its even better.

Posted: 8/23/2006 4:12 AM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

Reply from "Contest Idea" topic being moved here: skamastaG, that sounds like a pretty ambitious project for your first TAS. I would really enjoy wacthing it and helping out with it though, it sounds like a cool idea to me. Just picture Fabian's Awesome, but in every level. ;) Also, if you're going to work on small stuff, maybe you can finally prove if corner boosting works on land or not. I swear you jolt forward a bit when you hit a corner just right, but maybe you dont always save a frame. Check out frames 31080-31111 in JXQ's 11 video (near the end of the dark room in Bowser's Castle, right after he gets the 1up). If you watch it using frame advance, there is definately a noticeable teleportation that occurs (though it's more down that forward in this case). Since this was done on accident, I'm guessing if you could do it even better if you tried to hit the corner in just the right way. Now we just need to finish/actually do some recording for our 11 run!!

Posted: 8/23/2006 4:09 AM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

skamastaG, that sounds like a pretty ambitious project for your first TAS. I would really enjoy wacthing it and helping out with it though, it sounds like a cool idea to me. Just picture Fabian's Awesome, but in every level. ;) Also, if you're going to work on small stuff, maybe you can finally prove if corner boosting works on land or not. I swear you jolt forward a bit when you hit a corner just right, but maybe you dont always save a frame. Check out frames 31080-31111 in JXQ's 11 video (near the end of the dark room in Bowser's Castle, right after he gets the 1up). If you watch it using frame advance, there is definately a noticeable teleportation that occurs (though it's more down that forward in this case). Since this was done on accident, I'm guessing if you could do it even better if you tried to hit the corner in just the right way. Now we just need to finish/actually do some recording for our 11 run!! EDIT: I'm posting this in the SMW topic as well, since it doesnt really belong here.

Posted: 8/21/2006 10:26 PM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

andrewg, if you figured this out all on your own, I'd be pretty surprised. I'd be even more surpsied if you actually managed to do it on console.

Posted: 8/21/2006 10:15 PM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

minglw: Yes the 6 up is an entertaining option that was considered, but jimsfriend (who is making a small-only SMW console run) is doing that and I want to try and be original. With this is mind, skamastaG said he wants to do option #1 because he has had more practice with it and it is the most original (I didnt realize it when I made the videos, but options 3/4 are almost exactly what VIPer and flagitious do in their TAS). So looks like it's option 1, thanks for the input everyone.

Posted: 8/20/2006 7:31 PM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

Yeah 5 is kinda just a "backup" option if skamastaG gets frustrated trying to pull off the other four options during a run. Those other four are much harder than 5. I personally like 5 the least as well.

Posted: 8/20/2006 7:19 PM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

Okay, the videos for the beginning tricks on YI2 are done. Time to vote on them! There are 5 options. You can just vote using the number(s) in the playlist. Here's the link. I'm curious as to which one(s) you guys will like best. And the best part is, none of these tricks interfere with getting a 361. The ending tricks might though. :( I tried to get a 361 using some of the ending tricks and have been unsuccessful so far, but that doesnt mean it cant be done. I came the closest with ending options 3, 5, and 6, but with practice I think I should be able to get 4 to work.

Posted: 8/20/2006 12:34 AM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

Oh, I thought you hop glitched through the whole level. It's surprising that it only takes two hops at the end to make a 361 happen. Knowing this, I would say it would be possible to replicate again for a run if given enough tries. Now I think we should do Ending 4 for sure: it's the coolest and the fastest. ;) Thanks for voting everyone. I have made videos for almost every beginning, so I will post a link to a playlist for all the beginnings, and you can vote on those too. EDIT: I did some testing on Mario's running speed with all this hop glitch talk. I made a handy little graph (click on it to make it bigger) for a nice visual representation of Mario's speed. The graph covers the period of time, frame by frame, that it takes Mario to go from a dead stop to a full run. I used frame advance and recorded Mario's speed value at every frame. As you can see, the first section of the graph (from frames 0 to about 25) is not a straight line. When Mario is accelerating, his speed goes up by one then two then one then two (ex: 0,1,3,4,6,7,9,10). For some reason, Mario's acceleration tops out at the 35-37 range for about 55 frames before Mario accelerates further. This top out at the 35-37 range follows the same oscillations as a full run. This oscillation is: 47,48,47,49,48,47,48,47,49, etc. I also tested out flying speed oscillation, which is much more linear with the following pattern (only applies when holding forward): 51,50,49,48,47,51,50,49,48,47,51, etc. This means if you get unlucky with fast flying, it may be slower than running. EDIT 2: Yay! I just got a 361 as well! It's definately replicable if you get good enough at it. I did the same thing as you skamastaG: made a long jump to the green pipe, released forward in midair, jumped off the yellow blocks, and jumped off the ground and into the goal. I think we can do this in a run! EDIT 3: I just got 361 11 more times! It's just luck of what the oscillation stops at, I've gotten much better at touching the ground for only one frame at a time (yes at 100% speed). :)

Posted: 8/19/2006 4:20 PM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

skamastaG, thats awesome about a 361! I never thought it would be possible on console! Even if it doesnt save that much time, if we did it in a run, the average SDA viewer who watches it would be amazed. I know I couldnt believe my eyes when I first saw JXQ get a 361 on this level. Getting it on console will be even more incredible. I can imagine future runners trying to beat our time and just being stumped about how to get that 361 ;). With the 361 and your 278 on YI4, this run is starting to look more and more like a TAS. :) I was proud of myself for beating some of Alexis Neuhaus' times, now you've beaten one of VIPer/flagitious' times! Since this is the first level in our run, we can try over and over again for that 361, since not getting it wont "ruin" anything. I dont know how likely it is to happen in a run, but it's cool to know it's possible.

Posted: 8/19/2006 5:44 AM

Quote

thegreginator

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

Getting the gate points doesnt force you into the slow unskippable bonus game unless you get over 99. In an 11-exit run, you couldnt get over 99 even if you tried. The gate points may cause more fadeout lag (depending on your score), but this is a matter of 1 or 2 frames and is ignored in a console run.