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SaxxonPike wrote:
upthorn wrote:
Saxxon. Please explain how your previous post relates to the discussion about this submission?
No, because there is a place in the rules where it says that a TAS of the game must be entertaining. The OoT run entertained many, while the SC2 one did not.
I was referring to the discussion you have quoted, actually. Although loosely. I'll add something constructive when time permits :)
I knew what you were replying to, my point was that it was a pretty large post to contest a pretty unrelated tangent, and I'd rather we not bring the good old "speed vs entertainment" war into this topic just because someone mentioned star control.
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Dacicus wrote:
DK64_MASTER wrote:
The general public weren't screaming for a SC2 run were they? Were they screaming for a OOT run? No, they were demanding it.
I don't see anywhere in the site rules where it says popular demand should be a factor in determining whether a movie gets accepted or not. If we would actually have followed the rules, the OoT run should have been rejected and the SC2 one accepted.
No, because there is a place in the rules where it says that a TAS of the game must be entertaining. The OoT run entertained many, while the SC2 one did not.
Anyway, considering which glitches were known to the TAS community at the time of submission, Guanobowl's original OoT run was reasonably well optimized. This run (at least the part of it that I could watch), looked like it could have been a real-time speed run by a mediocre player.
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Wockes wrote:
Wait if this movie sux, that means the published one...
Let me put it this way:
Published movie: rather highly optimized gameplay. poor routeplanning due to lack of knowledge about time saving glitches.
This movie: Much better routeplanning, gameplay is incredibly slow and sloppy.
To analogize: Consider the original SMB3 movie by morimoto -- very well optimized and entertaining gameplay. Now imagine that a glitch in SMB3 were discovered that allowed warping straight to the final boss at any time after the first level. However, the movie made using this glitch takes 8 minutes to beat level one, and gets hit several times, unnecessarily. But its final time is 9 minutes 30 seconds, 1 and a half minutes faster than morimoto's.
Would you argue that that video should be published, obsoleting morimoto's?
Would you inflexibly cry that it was better because it was faster, even though the gameplay is inarguably worse?
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Unable to watch it without desync, what I've seen so far looked much like guanobowl's run, but with longer pauses after climbing things, and occasional failures to perform glitches (The first superslide, for instance, doesn't start until the second attempt).
Voting Meh.
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DK64_MASTER wrote:
The problem is, that a lot of the members who vote on this site are familiar with the tricks and glitches that are used (or not used) in this game. FYI, the first movie was a test run that grew better optimized as the levels went by. It was known to be quite unoptimal before the author (and the community who rallied behind him) submitted it. That was partly due to the nature of the game. It is long, and doesn't hex edit well. A lot of the tricks used later in the run were not used initially.
...
We published a test-run of this game before, why not do it again? ;)
The difference between the published run and this one, is that when guano's was unoptimized at the start, it was because he wasn't aware of the timesaving tricks, not because he was too lazy to rerecord when he a trick didn't work on the first try due to improper setup.
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DarkKobold wrote:
2 comments: In the first swimming level, at about 4:15 ish, you do one zip up, and then wait. Could the zip have come later to get over the middle piece?
First, for the sake of precise terminology, let us reserve the word "zip" to refer to abuse of a common wall-ejection mechanism (wherein if you collide with a wall, the game begins moving you at high-speeds, backwards relative to the direction you hold down)
Now, to answer your question, I could have delayed the rocket boost by a few seconds so I could swim high enough to get a diagonal boost over the middle wall, but this would have taken a few seconds longer. The boost currently ends about a half-second before reaching a height where I could boost diagonally to get over the wall, so I only have to wait around 30 frames to do the next boost, compared to the extra 3 seconds it would have taken to swim to that height.
DarkKobold wrote:
Second: was zipping disabled for the flashy things with the moving lift? You stay on the platform the entire time, which is out of place in this ADHD movie.
Rocket boosting is possible during those sequences, and I actually do currently rocket boost at the first possible opportunity where I can reach the exit by doing so. But for the first room, the exit is placed so high that it can't be reached by boosting, even from the peak of a maximum height jump, so I need to wait for the platform to get nearby.
Sidenote: There is actually a small wall zip in this room. I jump on the first frame that the wall ejects me to the right, instead of downwards, which saves 44 frames compared to waiting for the platform to reach that position.
For the second room with a moving platform, the floors ceilings, and walls are made of instant-death spikes. If that were not the case, it would be much faster simply to walk than to take the moving platform, but the instant death spikes make walking, and even boosting, impossible.
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None of these improvements apply to the SNES spinoff, either.
The sequel to this game, is "Sparkster: Rocket Knight Adventures 2", for Sega Genesis. Sparkster for SNES is a spinoff which takes place on a different planet, has different characters, et cetera; but actually plays more like the original than the actual sequel.
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DonamerDragon wrote:
Thought it would be a little faster if you lost some life but I suppose i can see why you did that.
Just in case I wasn't clear enough in the submission text, in the US version, all enemies and bosses kill you from full health in one hit. Taking damage to save time would be faster, but is impossible on this version and difficulty level.
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Looking at the screenshots, it looks like a glitch that allows for falling through pipes that nitsuja described to me as not being very usefull - there was only one place he could find to use it which would have saved time (by skipping a cutscene and mid-boss), but he was going for in-game time, and using that glitch causes the timer to keep going when it normally would be stopped.
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P.JBoy wrote:
Why did you use vba v19? the whole point in v20 is that it fixes a gameboy emulation error
[2007-08-18 05:54:46] <Randil> the frame advance function doesn't work very good on version 20, at least not for me. sometimes it advances 15 frames in one click
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Truncated wrote:
I think the movie was cool.
Agreed.
For people who want to see more of the game (I don't), we already have an excellent (or so I'm told) 120-star movie, so I think obsoleting was the correct way to go.
Disagreed.
There are three points to be made here that immediately spring to mind
It is entirely possible to want to see the game played for more than 6 minutes without wanting to see it played for nearly an hour and a half.
The 120-star run is incredibly repetitive, due to playing every level 7 times. The routes over lap too much, and the levels don't have enough variety to justify being played 7 times back to back.
Comparing the average quality of play of the 120-star run to the average quality of play of the 16-star run, the 16-star comes out way ahead. (For clarification, by quality of play I mostly mean things like speed and glitch exploitation.)
Now, to throw in an opinion-based statement, I feel that the run this obsoleted was more entertaining than either this run, or the 120-star run, and I believe there are many others who would agree.
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Saturn wrote:
upthorn wrote:
Fact: it is impossible that you would have tested all possible input combinations for the given number of frames, as doing so would take millions of years, even for a robot.
Fact: With the needed knowledge you can see immediately which combinations are promising and which are definitely slower, even without testing them. I only need to test very few strategies per room that are all similarly fast, to find out which one is still the slightly fastest in the end. It's hard to believe, but it's really like that for me.
So you're certain that none of the possible input combinations that you didn't test could have performed any helpful glitch or trick that you don't know about yet?
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P.JBoy wrote:
upthorn wrote:
Fact: without testing all possible input combinations, you cannot be certain you got a perfect time.
That is not true. Some input combinations can't affect anything at all.
But you can't be sure which is which unless you disassemble both the ROM and the Emulator and work through it all to make sure of the behavior on each press.
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Saturn wrote:
And to everybody who still misunderstands me, I never said I'm superior to anybody. I just said that I got a perfect time.
Fact: it is impossible that you would have tested all possible input combinations for the given number of frames, as doing so would take millions of years, even for a robot.
Fact: without testing all possible input combinations, you cannot be certain you got a perfect time.
Fact: You claim to be certain you got a perfect time.
Fact: Claiming perfection without data to support it is usually called "hubris"
opinion: Hubris is to be avoided.
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I'd break ranks with the unanimous sentiment if I disagreed.
But I really don't. Forums that delete old inactive threads are a benefit to the server administrators, not the users.
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Vatchern wrote:
Replaceing nouns is not a good way to to state a case.
I was trying to show you that your logic is the same as the logic that was/is used by SDA people in order to insult and decry TASing.
The reasoning in question being: "That's made in a different way, so it doesn't count! It's not real! I hate it!"
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Vatchern wrote:
I only like games that I can go to the store and be able to BUY.
So I guess you don't like any NES, SNES, Gameboy, Gameboy color, SMS, atari2600, sega master system, sega genesis, turbografx 16, Sega Saturn, or Nintendo 64. You can't walk into any store and buy those games any more.
I also guess you don't like any flash games, or any games like cave story or within a deep forest which were released for free online, and nobody's ever charged any money for.
I'd also like to point out, by replacing key nouns in your sentence, why your "hacks aren't real" arguement is poor:
Vatchern wrote:
I am a TSA fan. But, since Mikewuyama is real, im not going to write rants on his submissions. but TASes are not real.
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Vatchern wrote:
upthorn wrote:
The point is that it's rather arbitrary to dislike all hacks. It makes no more sense than disliking any game made after 1994. Or any game made for Sega Genesis.
This does make sense, hence why HACKS were banned from this site from the start.
Funny how you don't provide any supporting statements that it makes any sense. Like explaining how maybe.
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Vatchern wrote:
Baxter wrote:
moozooh wrote:
In other words, if the game is unfamiliar to you, you usually ignore it. If the game is a hack, you're openly negative about it.
Have to agree with moozooh here. I've never heard you say: "Another Gens submission, *sigh*.".
I never say such a thing about a gens submission naturally because gens runs are always accepted here as normal TAS's. HACKS were usually not accepted here, and most arent. lets keep it this way.
The point is that it's rather arbitrary to dislike all hacks. It makes no more sense than disliking any game made after 1994. Or any game made for Sega Genesis.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
