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Rat wrote:
The final WIP desyncs at the end of Hydrocity 1 and I have no idea why. :<
EDIT: I'm using Gens movie 9z and it still does it. Am I allowed to ask what rom version was used? :/
The rom version used is Sonic and Knuckles & Sonic 3 (W) [!].bin
but what happens when it desyncs.
There's supposed to be a death in the beginning of Hydrocity 2, if that's what's throwing you
also, I've just submitted this run with a few slight changes, (it's at http://tasvideos.org/1378S.html) so you might try and see if that version works for you
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Lardarse wrote:
Ok... in that case, the Hydrocity 2 death is like the deaths in nitsuja's SMB3 warpless run, yeah?
Err, I don't think nitsuja has done an SMB3 run.
Lardarse wrote:
Is it not possible for you to use the Ice Cap glitch that he uses?
That glitch requires an object to be destroyed while the player is standing on it. Sonic can do this in Ice Cap with Tails, but the only place Knuckles can do it is the capsule at the end of Flying Battery 1
Lardarse wrote:
What is the waiting at the start of Lava Reef 2 for?
So that enough of the level has loaded for the level wrap to work advantageously.
Lardarse wrote:
If the ring box before entering the pyramid doesn't carry over, then why pick it up or waste time trying to find it?
I have to wait that long for the pillar at the beginning of act 2 to lower, so I might as well do it while the timer's not running.
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When Sonic is moving forward while jumping, and collides with a corner, depending on his y position, and x and y speeds, the game will let him pass through the corner.
Meanwhile, collision with flooring is only checked when the player is falling downward (or is already on the floor)
With the right combination of x and y speeds, it's possible to pass through the corner there, and then fail to make the height onto the step, at which point the player falls through, and lands on the step below.
But since he's still inside the step he just fell through, he can hold left or right to zip.
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Bag of Magic Food wrote:
How come it freezes when you beat the robosonic?
Gens_movie_9J (before the bugfix) has a bug where it reads past the end of the movie file.
All movies that end while the the start button is still read by the game will freeze at the end.
Upgrade to 9z, or downgrade to 9f.
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nitsuja wrote:
upthorn wrote:
The Z80 gets the instruction to play the ring monitor sound at the same time it gets the instruction to load the mushroom hill 2 music
Is that the only place it's possible to do that? Also, I've been wondering why the notes in Icecap zone (and nowhere else) sometimes linger strangely, even when it is playing the Super music instead of that zone's normal music.
I don't know if it's the only place where it's possible, but it is the only place where it's possible and I'm already getting a ring monitor.
By the way, I'd be interested to know if you can see any improvements in Ice Cap, Sandopolis, or Lava Reef
Ice Cap 1 and 2 are the levels which have been changed least since I started the project.
Both acts of sandopolis are insanely large, which makes a high potential for small screwups adding up over time
Lava Reef 1 is 2 frames from a lower display time
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Fabian wrote:
If you really wanted to go all-out with the in-game time thing, it would make sense to abuse checkpoints to reset the subseconds to 0 when it would save an in-game second. It would even make sense to get a time-over in every level and start from a checkpoint at 0:00. I think both of these ideas are horrible, and most people seem to agree.
Which, if you read the submission text, is why Nitsuja chose not to use death, even where faster in real time. Thusly allowing him consistently to go for in-game time over real time, without going to absurd extremes.
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JXQ wrote:
nitsuja wrote:
I found a way to skip the midboss of Launch Base 2 that would save time, except it causes the timer to not stop for the extremely long cutscene.
What a weird situation. Faster in real time, but it keeps the timer going, but it's a cutscene that some might say could be ignored for purposes of "bonus effects" or whatever. I would vote to actually skip that boss, myself (assuming it's faster in real time).
Edit: Also a note could be included to say what the time would be if the timer had stopped.
There's a similar choice to be made with Knuckles but it's much more extreme. Knuckles can get to the mid-boss that Sonic fights, and stop the timer, which then doesn't restart until Mushroom Hill, which saves 15-20 seconds of in-game time, but then he has to sit through the cutscene, and fight both of his bosses on a completely flat surface, which adds up to about 70 seconds of extra real time.
But the other thing to take into account is that duplicating the glitch, as I understand it, could easily take 30000 to 50000 rerecords, and Gens doesn't have any bisqbot-like tools to simplify the process.
Edit: Not to mention that the submission clearly states that it aims for fastest in-game time, and there are other places where he does something which is slower in real time, but causes the timer to stop.
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Actually, according to Sega, they lost the source code some time after making Sonic Jam.
Which is why Sonic Mega Collection is actually a collection of ROMs using a modified version of Gens which was ported to gamecube and PS2.
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Macman wrote:
upthorn wrote:
And so to TAS it properly, much more time would have to be devoted to lag management than to actual gameplay.
And therein lies the issue.
Isn't there a lot of managing lag in Super Mario World as well? That didn't stop anybody.
SMW lags occasionally at the end of levels. For comparison, Sonic Genesis will often lag while Sonic is standing still, and there are no moving objects on screen.
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The run now completes the game. Now I start the final hunt for optimizations, as well as putting some final polish on the wait times. Here is the complete WIP.
No changes have been made to levels that were already complete, so if you made a savestate at the end of Flying Battery, or Sandopolis, it will still work.
Alright, for anyone who cares, now is the time to pick apart my run. Quesition anything that looks questionable to you, if it saves time, I'll do it.
To that end, I've uploaded a map of my Super Emerald special stage routes to http://upthorn.mspencer.net/temp/specialk.png
green is forward, blue is backward, squares are jumps, yellow stripes are airtime (\ for normal jump, / for yellow sphere bounce), and the black arrows indicate starting location and initial face direction.
I haven't mapped my Chaos Emerald stage routes, but they were heavily based on the ones SprintGod made, available here.
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nitsuja wrote:
Bug: If you change the data type or size (or misaligned checking) while the RAM search has results shown, their addresses all get reset to starting from 00A00000.
I've noticed this myself, but I can't work out the cause.
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Lardarse wrote:
29410 (Hydrocity 1, after boss): Why do you hit the signost?
Because the Marble Garden 2 boss is on a universal frame counter, which means that not having that delay will desync it. The final version won't have that delay, but instead I will pause the minimum amount of time necessary to get the same pattern I currently have.
Lardarse wrote:
31008 (Hydrocity 2): I'm not sure that I understand the relevance of dying here.
When Hydrocity 2 is loaded with a transition from Hydrocity 1, there's a lock which prevents the player character from going too far left. When Hydrocity 2 is loaded directly (on death, or from level select), that lock is not in place.
Lardarse wrote:
510?? (Marble Garden 1, after boss): Why do you pick up the fire shield?
To get a better position to start Marble Garden 2 with. The slopes are very particular about angles of approach.
Lardarse wrote:
554?? (Marble Garden 2 boss): How does taking damage save time?
The chain does damage. By taking that damage early, I can jump up through the chain and hit him while he's above it, allowing me to get one more hit in. I take the damage late enough that I still have invulnerability when I need to go through the chain on the right.
If you mean the second time, there was no way to get the 3rd hit in on his ascent without taking damage immediately afterward. It means I only need to get 2 hits in on the next cycle.
Lardarse wrote:
624?? (Carnival night 2): Was there supposed to be a boss here?
A lot of people seem impressed by this, but actually, no Knuckles doesn't fight a boss at the end of Carnival Night 2. Unless he accidentally ended up on Sonic's route, in which case he has to climb all the way up to where Sonic fights his boss.
Lardarse wrote:
666?? (Ice Cap 1 boss): Does spin dashing from across the screen allow you to hit it earlier?
Yes. Ordinarily Knuckles cannot hit the boss until the boss has begun descending.
Lardarse wrote:
1110?? (Mushroom Hill 2 start): Does the music not playing have anything to do with the timing of collecting the ring box?
Yes. It's a frame precise thing. I haven't decided whether it will be in the final submission or not, but noone has complained about it, so far.
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nitsuja wrote:
The improvements were very noticeable all around. But why hit the signpost and jump in Hydrocity 1? It didn't appear to change anything. Also, I wonder if part of that Flying Battery 1 route could save time for Sonic...
I didn't feel like replaying that at the time, I'll edit it out later and replace it with as short a pause as possible to prevent the Marble Garden 2 boss from changing patterns.
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Finally got back to work on this after taking several hits to my motivation.
Here is the updated wip. No further progress has been made, but it's more than 8000 frames faster.
Notable changes
3 frames saved in angel island 1
1 frame lost to luck manipulation, in Angel Island 2.
Completely new Hydrocity 2 route
2 frames lost to luck manipulation in, in Launch Base 1.
1 time unit saved in Launch Base 1
8 time units saved in Launch Base 2
Improved Super Emerald Routes
2 time units saved in Mushroom Hill 1
2 time units saved in Mushroom Hill 2
Completely New Flying Battery 1 route.
Completely New Flying Battery 2 route.
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Macman wrote:
Could it be the left+right effect we see in games like Zelda 2?
No. Holding Left+right in Sonic games just makes sonic "run" to the right at a constant speed of 30 pixels per second, unless he's already running, in which case it makes him brake without running the braking animation.
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Savestates were changed in the new version to save more data, has aqfaq (or anyone else) tried using gens 9Z to see if it fixes the desync problem in Dune?
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Macman wrote:
As crummy as this game is, I bet it would be pretty interesting to TAS. There has to be a plethora of new glitches to find now.
Yeah, there are a whole plethora of new glitches, and the physics are interesting, and would be fun to play around with.
But then there's the constant, mind-numbing, lag.
And, because the lag can be reduced, it would have to be managed.
And so to TAS it properly, much more time would have to be devoted to lag management than to actual gameplay.
And therein lies the issue.
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bobxp wrote:
I also watched Upthorn's Knuckles run. I was pretty impressed by his runs of the special stages (well, the first three, didn't watch more than that). I guess I should replicate his first one for extra speed, but I wouldn't want to copy #2 and #3 because jumping into a see of red spheres is abuse as I see it...
Bah. it's not abuse until you jump onto a red sphere, and turn right, and don't die.
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Nitsuja reported a fairly major bug with RAM search to me, this has been fixed, redownload the zip file.
I really don't know how I missed this one. I apologize to all those of you who were trying to use RAM Search and having difficulty.
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The new glitch is interesting, and all, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to tell each Rockman 1 run from the last -- if this run weren't published, it wouldn't be a huge loss. After all, there's a great run of the same game, which is almost the same as this one, already.
Which is why I'm voting Meh.
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AnotherGamer wrote:
For Sonic, he should first crouch down for whatever reason, suddenly jump because Tails scares him or whatever, and then suddenly teleport through walls somewhere else.
I think Sonic running in midair (Ice Cap, Flying Battery) would be a much better shot.
Easy to loop, simpe to draw, etc
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
