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AngerFist wrote:
Never played with Knuckles or seen him (is he a hedgehog too?) in action so now I could see his limitations, such as he cannot jump high, which was evident in your boss battles.
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
No, he is a spiky Mickey Mouse!!
Actually, knuckles is an Echidna, which is a species of anteater with spines and behavior similar to a porcupine/hedgehog.
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nitsuja wrote:
Sorry to bring up improvements pretty early on again, didn't notice them before but they're adding up to quite a bit and I'm sure most things, at least the special stages, can be hexed back in.
Hey, the sooner you bring them up, the less work I have to redo if they cause desyncs.
So far, though, I've been very successful at hex-editing changes in. The only thing I'm worried about is that if you find improvements in Marble Garden 1, it may desync Marble Garden 2.
...Or that the changes in Angel Island 1 will desync Angel Island 2's moving platforms, causing me to have to re-do most of the stage.
Oh well, at least it's a short one.
nitsuja wrote:
The jump on frame 5278 only slows you down, and you can get slightly better jumps from the top of loops by rolling at the top of the loop as you start going down and then jumping a few frames later, at the optimal frame for each of course. The speed should show at least 4300 running up that log, and 5000+ on that ramp jump over the water before the spring, for about 10 frames faster to reach the level transition.
The jump on frame 5278 got me to the log 2 frames faster as compared to not jumping. The log seems to have a speed cap -- no matter how fast I was going before I hit the log, I don't make better than 4023 running up it.
5000+? Were you testing with Sonic? I haven't hit speeds that high even with Hyper Knuckles.
EDIT:
Done and done.
nitsuja wrote:
When you fight the boss at the end of act 1, taking damage is definitely not fastest. Beating it about 45 (maybe 50) frames faster is possible by repeatedly spindashing at it.
Oh. I just kind of assumed it would be, because on every other boss, repeatedly spindashing is markedly slower.
EDIT:
Done.
nitsuja wrote:
You can jump around frame 13564 to get running and jump again from the platform to come to a stop under the spikes ~5 frames sooner.
Okay, I'll try that.
Edit:
Done.
nitsuja wrote:
The triple loop around 13935 can be done much faster (~13 frames) by doing more jumping and less rolling. Rolling has a speed cap.
I tested every frame where it was possible to jump after the jump I did, and they each caused me to complete the loop I was on slower by at least 1 frame. I haven't tested now that I have the speed watcher, but I suspect that even if I get higher speeds doing that, they'll drop faster, And the jump will end up slower.
But I'll try it, it seems I'm usually wrong about these things.
Edit:
After the high jump it's only saved 7 frames. But hey.
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Make sure that you have up down left right a b c and start buttons defined for 1B and 1C
The way input is handled is slightly odd, and certain things won't register unless the buttons are defined. (For instance, frame advance won't automatically pause Gens unless the "pause on a gamekey" is defined)
Also, make sure you have at least Direct X 8
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WIP updated. Revised second special stage route, Angel Island 2 post-boss antics, and hydrocity 2 route.
Additionally completed Marble Garden 1 and 2, as well as completing the first set of emeralds.
IdeaMagnate wrote:
Upth: I'll have to look more closely at this. From the values I found in memory, it appeared that the speed increased by 4 (probably 4px/frame) every 1770-1793 frames, with the interval being fixed for each bonus stage.
All I can say is that turning at all the same locations, the gmv which held up while moving forward consistently completed every special stage a few frames (10-30) faster than the one which did not, and was moving one increment faster at the end about 3/4s of the time.
There are certain other situations where I've observed the time between speed increases to vary somewhat, so I suspect that the 1770-1793 values you're showing are the base values for each, and some calculations are run on them depending on a variety of factors.
I am also 90 percent certain that knuckles recieves the speed boosts slightly more frequently than sonic (which is consistent with Knuckles being the "hard mode")
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AKA wrote:
I think the speedometer is great Nitsuja, but I keep having to uncheck the read only option every time I reload a savestate and it can be very frustrating when I forget to do it. Is there a way to make it so thats not necessary?
Options->general
uncheck "default read only"
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IdeaMagnate wrote:
I've tested this, and it seems like the increase in speed in the bonus stages happenes at a fixed interval after you start moving. I tried running in circles and watching my speed in memory, and it always increased at the same time as the WIP, with a few frames of error (<6) probably from lag and/or being in the middle of a turn when the speed would have increased.
It's not exactly an optimization, although it's possible that turning earlier or later could result in a minor speed increase, if it you ensure that you're not turning at the wrong time.
Holding up seems to decrease this interval by 1 or 2 frames. Just enough that if you start the stages at the same time, the one that holds up will gradually pull ahead, and finish about half a second earlier.
Dustin wrote:
In HC2, you can get through the 2nd blue slide that you go down at about 1:10, with out stopping...
Thanks for the tip, but I've already redone my route in HC2 to skip the first giant ring, and follow SprintGod's route (up until I grab the second one, anyway). You'll notice that SprintGod's route falls straight through that same blue slide. Though it might be even faster if I jump down and glide through, I'll have to test.
Edit: Yup, it is. Yet another minor route revision on HC2.
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nitsuja wrote:
upthorn wrote:
AKA wrote:
3. I hope thats the optimal time to hit the switch after Robotnik.
As much as I wish it weren't, that is the first possible frame to hit the switch.
However, you can save about 90 (out-of-level) frames by hitting it on that frame from a regular jump instead of a spindash jump, because that allows you to turn around instantly before gliding, allowing you to land early enough to spindash to the right before the Knuckles does the victory animation.
When I tried this in the test runs I was unable to get enough left-ward velocity to hit the button.
Then again, I wasn't perfect about testing exhaustively in the test runs, as I was concentrating on routes.
Edit: so waiting for the capsule to double back a bit is faster than waiting for knuckles to turn around mid-glide.
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nitsuja wrote:
I found a big time saver: When you exit a tunnel vertically, such as at frame 14740 in your movie, there is 1 frame where you can jump directly out of the exit, if you entered the tunnel in just the right way. That means instead of going straight up, you can leave it at an angle and perform a glide out of that. In that one location alone it saves 400+ frames because it means you don't have to wait for that platform to come back down to get onto it. It could save time in other places by allowing you to immediately stop and spindash at the exit.
EDIT: Here is a demo movie, which is your last WIP until that part.
Awesome, thanks for the help.
nitsuja wrote:
I'm starting to think that the boringness of the special stages and repetitiveness of the super music will jeopardize the chances this run has of being published. Nobody has said that, but not many people have posted their opinions, and it's not uncommon for everyone to say "wait, this is boring" only after a run is done and submitted. (If only the bonus stages gave emeralds... those look a lot more fun.)
Well maybe it will, but I'm doing my best to force people to ignore that the special stages are boring by breaking the game in as many ways as I can.
Like... zipping, falling through solid obstacles, and bypassing the events that load boss music.
If it doesn't get published, it doesn't get published, but I can live with that.
AKA wrote:
1. After you get the first emerald was there a good reason for Spin dashing left then right instead of spin dashing right. You probally wouldn't be able to get out from the postion with a full dash, but I sure that a partial spin dash would get you out faster than a two max spin dashes withing a short period of each other.
It's not a max spin dash, it's a partial spin dash. While a partial spindash would get me out sooner, it wouldn't get me out with the same amount of speed, and I'd lose time overall, or I'd have to stop and spin-dash again. So it's a quick left and a full right vs a quick right and a full right later.
AKA wrote:
2. Was taking damage really necessary during the first two boss battles, I thought at first you were trying to reduce the end stage bonus, but its a 50,000 countdown. I'm sure that getting damaged causes lag because of all the calculations required to work out where the rings will go.
The invincibility time allows me to attack the boss and jump through him so I can bounce on top. Knuckles doesn't jump high enough to bounce on top of the boss without jumping through. Sonic 3 has a cap on the number of rings that spray out to prevent lag.
AKA wrote:
3. I hope thats the optimal time to hit the switch after Robotnik.
As much as I wish it weren't, that is the first possible frame to hit the switch.
AKA wrote:
5. Was that the optimal way to perform the water slide glitch in HC.
I didn't test extensively, but I copied it from SprintGod's run. Maybe with Knuckles' low jump height an extra rev would be in order.
AKA wrote:
6. Was there a good reason for doing a full 180 at the start of the special with the blue tiles.
A full 180 takes slightly less time than walking forward to the bunch that's 4 squares away and straight ahead.
AKA wrote:
7. I think where you take damage on the spikes could of been better, I think you glided and then fell half-way to take damage. Surely it would be better to take a minimal jump and maximum distance to damage boost to the right at the earliest opertunity and then spin dash when you land. The spikes do have favourable physics in Sonic 2+3.
... Good point. I only really tested two ways of doing that. There are probably a few faster ones.
Since I have to redo HC2 anyway (skipping the first ring, picking it up in MG1 instead) it won't even be that much of an issue to test a bit more exhaustively.
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Mr. Pwnage wrote:
In Angel Island 2, after going through the S-curve, if you press jump when you're precisely level with the ground, you can do a controlled jump. This should enable you to avoid the wait for the rising platform.
I tried this many, many times and could not get it to work. Can you make a GMV showing how you do it?
The first special ring in each Hydrocity act seems to take a long time to recover from. Perhaps you should skip those rings and use others?
As far off my path as those rings are, if I skip them, my emerald collection is incomplete until ice-cap. I think the early super knux is worth it. At least it's worth the first giant ring in act 1. If I only get 1 in act 2 I could get the 7th without losing too much time as early as... carnival night act 2.
EDIT:
Wait, I could still make super in Marble Garden Zone 1. it would require a few seconds of backtracking, but not nearly as much as HydroCity Zone 2 does. I'm a dumbass. I think Hydrocity Zone 1 is still worth getting both giant rings, though.
Mr. Pwnage wrote:
In Special Stage 5, you're traveling backwards through the room with 4 blue spheres, and after you get the second one and turn, I notice you pressed forward, causing redundant steps into a bumper and back. Is there a point to this?
If I jumped at the first possible frame without hitting that bumper, I wouldn't be able to turn on the next blue sphere. Which would cause two extra squares worth of redundant movement, instead of the current slightly-under-half a square
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Xkeeper wrote:
Aqfaq wrote:
JXQ wrote:
If this needs to be put in the concept demos, then why not Monopoly as well? I don't understand the difference.
Good point my fiend, goot points.
The monopoly run is entertaining in that you see a CPU bankrupted with an incredible amount of luck manipulation and planning. Yes, Monopoly took a lot of strategy (find best spots to gouge the CPU without bankrupting self)...
This is just boring.
More boring than the "walk through walls directly to the end credits" Link to the Past run?
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The WIP now completes the game.
I'm not happy with my performance in Lava Reef, but it IS a test run, after all, and the routes seem good, just ...unoptimized.
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Okay, to get the movie to play in 9J turns out to be fairly simple
Pause gens. (hit escape)
Play the movie.
Go to options->joypads
Click "OK".
Unpause gens.
Now it will work properly.
To clarify, the controller settings are getting loaded from the movie, but appearantly won't be used until you click ok on the controller dialog.
This has been fixed for the next release
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Thing is, JXQ's example was a justified demonstration of a principle in response to a question.
AKA's example was not.
But also, it's irrelevant unless "word count" gets implemented, which seems unlikely.
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IdeaMagnate on the GM2 page wrote:
controller-number := 1-8
Question. I thought I already knew the answer, but looking over some of your source, I feel I need to ask.
Does controller number "2" reference "Player 2" or "Player 1B"?
I think it should reference 2, then 3-5 for 1B-1D 6-8 for 2B-2D, because while it's somewhat nonintuitive for players 1-1D not to be contiguous, it's less intuitive for "2" not to mean Player 2.
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SXL wrote:
desynchs with any version, but works with ouzo's cfg (on 9f). curiously, it sets the controllers to "unknown". 9j's "auto sets controller" feature does not seem to be able to know/set this atypic configuration.
on the movie : nicely played but I'm not especially thrilled by the game. a bit repetitive. not voting.
If 9j says the controllers are unknown, it means that somehow the movie file doesn't have the controller information saved.
When I unzipped it, and opened it, 9j set the controls to port 1, teamplayer,
1: 3-button, 1A: 3-button, 1:B 3-button
But it still desynced in the first level.
When I opened the movie and loaded ouzo's cfg during the opening sequence, it played through, but desynced just at the end, instead of throwing the final switch, it pauses.
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bkDJ wrote:
watched currnt wip. Criticism:
1) Launch Base 2 was simply amazing. I just have to wonder why on earth you wasted seconds at the end of launch base 1 getting a ring TV. Did you think you wouldn't have enough but didn't feel like hex editing that out later?
Initially I was planning to skip the giant ring, but then I discovered that I have to go almost to the giant ring to get the pipe to change solidity anyway.
I won't get the TV in the real run.
bkDJ wrote:
2) for the first super emeral bonus stage, at one point you hit the yellow and can immediately turn but for most of them you go an extra space. why? and is jumping onto the yellow even necessary?
The reason I can turn immediately is because I'm jumping from further away. I hadn't noticed this before.
The reason I was jumping is because fewer rings = less time in score screen, but 24 or 30 vs 18 isn't really that much more time compared to the time saved in not having to go the extra squares.
bkDJ wrote:
3) for the 3rd bonus level, (the linear one) could you have made the emerald come up faster if you held up right before collecting the last one so that you're already heading forwards when it goes into auto mode?
I'll try that.
bkDJ wrote:
4) for mushroom hill act one, could a spin dash jump against the screen have gotten the first hit sooner?
I assume you mean against the boss.
I tested jumping at about 30 different consecutive frames. I don't get the necessary height. The ground seems to be completely level.
bkDJ wrote:
5) Nice bonus 6. Fancy bonus 7, but I don't see how going backwards saved time. it probably only added it :(
Going backwards at the start of bonus 7 saves a turns or two
bkDJ wrote:
6) wouldn't you get more hits in the mhza2 boss if you were on the ground standing (a la final sonic 3 boss) than bouncing?
There's no frames where he isn't flashing as it is. I get the same number of hits in versus when I just stood on top in my previous wip.
PS: Have you checked out my sandopolis 1 route?
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nitsuja wrote:
upthorn wrote:
I think I tried that, and then ended up being unable to avoid grabbing the cord. But when I go over it for my final run, I'll see about that again.
Alternatlely I could drop, to the other ledge for the diagonal jump, like I did in my old wip.
If you land below where the cord is, the game lets you spin dash through it without grabbing it. Jumping from the other ledge would work too, but it's a less direct path so I am guessing it would take longer.
Yeah, I know I can spindash through it, but spindashing loses speed very quickly going up those hills. When I tried this, I didn't have enough height on my jump after I got through the cord.
I could spindash through, stop, and spindash again, but getting the game to let me spindash up those hills is a complicated time-consuming affair.
In other news there are some helpful wall glitches in Sandopolis Act 1.
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nitsuja wrote:
On the WIP you have up: That part in Marble Garden 2 between 28 and 32 seconds looked very inefficient with the turning around in a glide to get there. You could do a glide and cancel it above to drop down there directly, saving at least 105 frames.
I think I tried that, and then ended up being unable to avoid grabbing the cord. But when I go over it for my final run, I'll see about that again.
Alternatlely I could drop, to the other ledge for the diagonal jump, like I did in my old wip.
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I've updated the WIP linked in the first post.
now completes through mushroom hill zone 2.
I'm going to need to do a bit of route planning before I go on ahead, because I did not achieve the most efficient routes in either flying battery or sandopolis.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
