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Joined: 3/30/2004
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Viewer wrote:
"Qohelet"...are you, by any chance, Hebrew, Boco?
I'm B'nai Noach, religiously, if that's what you're asking. But if it's about nationality or ethnicity then you should know better than to take that stuff on the Internet.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
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Joined: 3/13/2004
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Location: Kansai, JAPAN
flagitious wrote:
second we are people and we do make mistakes and fail to realize some complicated things.
That is a huge part of how I think about things and how I treat other people. As certain as I am that God is not "real," strictly speaking, I must remember at all times that I don't have all the answers. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm on the fast track to Hell. Likewise, as much as I loathe the current Presidential administration and everything they do, I must keep in mind that there exists the possibilty that they are right and I am not. Of course, one of the things I hate about Bush & Co. is their refusal to admit even the slightest of errors. I'd respect them a lot more if they came clean about their mistakes and tried to convince me how they're going to set things right instead of trying to make believe that everything's going great, just as they planned it.
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Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
Sorry Bob, I read, "I am nihilist," rather than, "I am not..." As for proving that nihilism is true... Um. Basically nihilism says there is no truth. It's tricky, semantically. I think most philosophers agree that nihilism is the conclusion of total open mindedness. (I made this: http://staticzero.org/modernartillery/poster.jpg) I read a lot over the summer. Most of the time I was nihilistic. I proved it wrong, (I think.) I plan to write a book explaining what nihilism is, how one becomes a nihilist, and how to escape from nihilism. I also have an idea for a book for life post-nihilism. Because my ideas are so lengthy, I will not type them here. Boco: You're a smart girl. Did you come to agreement with the Qohelet by intense thought? For me, reading something that says, "You're too dumb to figure it out so stop trying," doesn't quite satisfy me.
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So we have philosopher among us, eh? If you ever write it, I will be intertested in reading it, or if you ever just write something about it.
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Location: Heather's imagination
The point of that particular passage is "Even if you know everything you won't be able to solve every problem - you'll just be more aware of how bad the situation is." Knowledge for the sake of knowledge is not a bad thing. But it does not relate to success, or happiness, or meaning in any way. It doesn't say or mean "You're too dumb to figure it out so stop trying" so you should read the whole thing. The book is about a king who had everything you could ever think of and still wasn't satisfied, and what he tries to fix that, and what he learns from those experiences. I can't connect to IRC at the moment (there are a lot of hoops I have to jump through to be able to do that) or I'd offer to talk one-on-one about it or other religious/philosophical/metaphysical things.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
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Is the book written from an objectivish point of view, or does it preach some religion? I might pick it up if its the former.
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?[?q?u?o?t?e?:?6?5?2?d?3?3?c?d?b?6?=?"?B?o?b? ?W?h?o?o?p?s?"?]?I?s? ?t?h?e? ?b?o?o?k? ?w?r?i?t?t?e?n? ?f?r?o?m? ?a?n? ?o?b?j?e?c?t?i?v?i?s?h? ?p?o?i?n?t? ?o?f? ?v?i?e?w?,? ?o?r? ?d?o?e?s? ?i?t? ?p?r?e?a?c?h? ?s?o?m?e? ?r?e?l?i?g?i?o?n???[?/?q?u?o?t?e?:?6?5?2?d?3?3?c?d?b?6?]? ? ?W?h?a?t? ?d?o? ?y?o?u? ?m?e?a?n? ?b?y? ?p?r?e?a?c?h??? ? ? ? ?I?t? ?a?s?s?u?m?e?s? ?a? ?r?e?l?i?g?i?o?n?,? ?c?o?n?s?i?d?e?r?i?n?g? ?i?t? ?w?a?s? ?w?r?i?t?t?e?n? ?o?v?e?r? ?2?0?0?0? ?y?e?a?r?s? ?a?g?o? ?(?p?r?o?b?a?b?l?y? ?c?o?n?t?e?m?p?o?r?a?r?y? ?w?i?t?h? ?B?u?d?d?h?a?)?.? ? ?B?u?t? ?t?h?e? ?a?u?t?h?o?r? ?e?v?e?n?t?u?a?l?l?y? ?c?o?n?c?l?u?d?e?s? ?t?h?a?t? ?o?b?s?e?r?v?a?n?c?e? ?o?f? ?a?n?y? ?p?a?r?t?i?c?u?l?a?r? ?r?e?l?i?g?i?o?n? ?i?s? ?m?e?a?n?i?n?g?l?e?s?s?:? ? ? ? ?[?q?u?o?t?e?:?6?5?2?d?3?3?c?d?b?6?=?"?Q?o?h?e?l?e?t?"?]?[?i?:?6?5?2?d?3?3?c?d?b?6?]?E?v?e?r?y?o?n?e? ?W?i?l?l? ?D?i?e?[?/?i?:?6?5?2?d?3?3?c?d?b?6?]? ? ?9?:?1? ?S?o? ?I? ?r?e?f?l?e?c?t?e?d? ?o?n? ?a?l?l? ?t?h?i?s?,? ?a?t?t?e?m?p?t?i?n?g? ?t?o? ?c?l?e?a?r? ?i?t? ?a?l?l? ?u?p?.? ? ?I? ?c?o?n?c?l?u?d?e?d? ?t?h?a?t? ?t?h?e? ?r?i?g?h?t?e?o?u?s? ?a?n?d? ?t?h?e? ?w?i?s?e?,? ?a?s? ?w?e?l?l? ?a?s? ?t?h?e?i?r? ?w?o?r?k?s?,? ?a?r?e? ?i?n? ?t?h?e? ?h?a?n?d? ?o?f? ?G?o?d?;? ? ?w?h?e?t?h?e?r? ?h?e? ?w?i?l?l? ?b?e? ?l?o?v?e?d? ?o?r? ?h?a?t?e?d?? ? ?n?o? ?o?n?e? ?k?n?o?w?s? ?w?h?a?t? ?l?i?e?s? ?a?h?e?a?d?.? ? ?9?:?2? ?E?v?e?r?y?o?n?e? ?s?h?a?r?e?s? ?t?h?e? ?s?a?m?e? ?f?a?t?e?? ? ?t?h?e? ?r?i?g?h?t?e?o?u?s? ?a?n?d? ?t?h?e? ?w?i?c?k?e?d?,? ? ?t?h?e? ?g?o?o?d? ?a?n?d? ?t?h?e? ?b?a?d?,? ? ?t?h?e? ?c?e?r?e?m?o?n?i?a?l?l?y? ?c?l?e?a?n? ?a?n?d? ?u?n?c?l?e?a?n?,? ? ?t?h?o?s?e? ?w?h?o? ?o?f?f?e?r? ?s?a?c?r?i?f?i?c?e?s? ?a?n?d? ?t?h?o?s?e? ?w?h?o? ?d?o? ?n?o?t?.? ? ?W?h?a?t? ?h?a?p?p?e?n?s? ?t?o? ?t?h?e? ?g?o?o?d? ?p?e?r?s?o?n?,? ?a?l?s?o? ?h?a?p?p?e?n?s? ?t?o? ?t?h?e? ?s?i?n?n?e?r?;? ? ?w?h?a?t? ?h?a?p?p?e?n?s? ?t?o? ?t?h?o?s?e? ?w?h?o? ?m?a?k?e? ?v?o?w?s?,? ?a?l?s?o? ?h?a?p?p?e?n?s? ?t?o? ?t?h?o?s?e? ?w?h?o? ?a?r?e? ?a?f?r?a?i?d? ?t?o? ?m?a?k?e? ?v?o?w?s?.? ? ?9?:?3? ?T?h?i?s? ?i?s? ?t?h?e? ?u?n?f?o?r?t?u?n?a?t?e? ?f?a?c?t? ?a?b?o?u?t? ?e?v?e?r?y?t?h?i?n?g? ?t?h?a?t? ?h?a?p?p?e?n?s? ?o?n? ?e?a?r?t?h?:? ? ?t?h?e? ?s?a?m?e? ?f?a?t?e? ?a?w?a?i?t?s? ?e?v?e?r?y?o?n?e?.? ? ?I?n? ?a?d?d?i?t?i?o?n? ?t?o? ?t?h?i?s?,? ?t?h?e? ?h?e?a?r?t?s? ?o?f? ?a?l?l? ?p?e?o?p?l?e? ?a?r?e? ?f?u?l?l? ?o?f? ?e?v?i?l?,? ? ?a?n?d? ?t?h?e?r?e? ?i?s? ?f?o?l?l?y? ?i?n? ?t?h?e?i?r? ?h?e?a?r?t?s? ?d?u?r?i?n?g? ?t?h?e?i?r? ?l?i?v?e?s??t?h?e?n? ?t?h?e?y? ?d?i?e?.? ? ? ? ?[?i?:?6?5?2?d?3?3?c?d?b?6?]?B?e?t?t?e?r? ?t?o? ?B?e? ?P?o?o?r? ?b?u?t? ?A?l?i?v?e? ?t?h?a?n? ?R?i?c?h? ?b?u?t? ?D?e?a?d?[?/?i?:?6?5?2?d?3?3?c?d?b?6?]? ? ?9?:?4? ?B?u?t? ?w?h?o?e?v?e?r? ?i?s? ?a?m?o?n?g? ?t?h?e? ?l?i?v?i?n?g? ?h?a?s? ?h?o?p?e?;? ? ?a? ?l?i?v?e? ?d?o?g? ?i?s? ?b?e?t?t?e?r? ?t?h?a?n? ?a? ?d?e?a?d? ?l?i?o?n?.? ? ?9?:?5? ?F?o?r? ?t?h?e? ?l?i?v?i?n?g? ?k?n?o?w? ?t?h?a?t? ?t?h?e?y? ?w?i?l?l? ?d?i?e?,? ?b?u?t? ?t?h?e? ?d?e?a?d? ?d?o? ?n?o?t? ?k?n?o?w? ?a?n?y?t?h?i?n?g?;? ? ?t?h?e?y? ?h?a?v?e? ?n?o? ?f?u?r?t?h?e?r? ?r?e?w?a?r?d??a?n?d? ?e?v?e?n? ?t?h?e? ?m?e?m?o?r?y? ?o?f? ?t?h?e?m? ?d?i?s?a?p?p?e?a?r?s?.? ? ?9?:?6? ?W?h?a?t? ?t?h?e?y? ?l?o?v?e?d?,? ?a?s? ?w?e?l?l? ?a?s? ?w?h?a?t? ?t?h?e?y? ?h?a?t?e?d? ?a?n?d? ?e?n?v?i?e?d?,? ?p?e?r?i?s?h?e?d? ?l?o?n?g? ?a?g?o?,? ? ?a?n?d? ?t?h?e?y? ?n?o? ?l?o?n?g?e?r? ?h?a?v?e? ?a? ?p?a?r?t? ?i?n? ?a?n?y?t?h?i?n?g? ?t?h?a?t? ?h?a?p?p?e?n?s? ?o?n? ?e?a?r?t?h?.?[?/?q?u?o?t?e?:?6?5?2?d?3?3?c?d?b?6?]?
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Joined: 6/4/2004
Posts: 284
Qoholeth, son of David, king in Jerusalem wrote:
2:12 I turned myself to consider wisdom, madness, and folly: for what can the king's successor do? Just that which has been done long ago. 2:13 Then I saw that wisdom excels folly, as far as light excels darkness. 2:14 The wise man's eyes are in his head, and the fool walks in darkness--and yet I perceived that one event happens to them all. 2:15 Then said I in my heart, "As it happens to the fool, so will it happen even to me; and why was I then more wise?" Then said I in my heart that this also is vanity. 2:16 For of the wise man, even as of the fool, there is no memory for ever, seeing that in the days to come all will have been long forgotten. Indeed, the wise man must die just like the fool! 2:17 So I hated life, because the work that is worked under the sun was grievous to me; for all is vanity and a chasing after wind. 2:18 I hated all my labor in which I labored under the sun, seeing that I must leave it to the man who comes after me. 2:19 Who knows whether he will be a wise man or a fool? Yet he will have rule over all of my labor in which I have labored, and in which I have shown myself wise under the sun. This also is vanity. 2:20 Therefore I began to cause my heart to despair concerning all the labor in which I had labored under the sun. 2:21 For there is a man whose labor is with wisdom, with knowledge, and with skillfulness; yet he shall leave it for his portion to a man who has not labored for it. This also is vanity and a great evil. 2:24 There is nothing better for a man than that he should eat and drink, and make his soul enjoy good in his labor. This also I saw, that it is from the hand of God. 2:25 For who can eat, or who can have enjoyment, more than I? 2:26 For to the man who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge, and joy; but to the sinner he gives travail, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to him who pleases God. This also is vanity and a chasing after wind.
(Bob Whoops, if I may ask a question...why do you feel imposed upon if someone were to "preach a religion" to you, as opposed to keeping it to themselves? Do you consider yourself a relativist?)
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Bob Whoops wrote:
Is the book written from an objectivish point of view, or does it preach some religion?
Is there an objective viewer? You are not an objective person to talk about your existence. God is not an objective person to talk about his existence. People who believe in God are not objective to talk about him. People who don't believe in God are not objective to talk about him. Where do you hope finding an objective person?
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It is not entirely impossible to approach those matters objectively. Philosophers such as Descartes and Hume greatly pursued objectivity when it came to questions of metaphysics and existence. Whether they did so successfully is another debate.
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Sorry, perhaps I phrased it wrong. Take a book such as the bible for instance. However interesting it may be, it is trying to get you fairth in God. I was not sure if this was just a philiosofic book that tells a story, or a religious book. All, I'm asking if this book is biblish. I have no problem with it assuming a religion (or lack thereof). I have read nearly of of Nietsche's (tranlated) stories, and I find them very well written and interesting. But, the book never seemed like it was trying to convert me. It was just giving me things to think about so I could decide myself.
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If that is your opinion of the bible you have maybe not read enough of it or the right parts of it. It assumes that you already have the faith from oral tradition. It merely teaches you what to do about it. If the bible's purpose was "to get you faith in God", why is conversion frowned upon in Judaism, for example, and why does witnessing in Christianity involve extra-biblical information? Anyway, Qohelet assumes Judaism to be true, but none of it is preachy. It's just "this is the way it is and this is what that means". Jewish philosophy assumes God but is generally very similar to Buddhism which does not assume God. Besides, what does it matter the source of wisdom if it can be shown that such wisdom is accurate?
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Joined: 3/25/2004
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Boco: Happiness or success is not what a philosopher is looking for. He's looking for truth, even if it's painful. The search usually ends at nihilism and progresses no further. Read this page: http://www.iep.utm.edu/n/nihilism.htm I only point this out because you said: "Besides, what does it matter the source of wisdom if it can be shown that such wisdom is accurate?" Accurate in what sense? It seems to apply to your life? It makes you happy? Very well.
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Ramzi wrote:
Boco: Happiness or success is not what a philosopher is looking for. He's looking for truth, even if it's painful. The search usually ends at nihilism and progresses no further.
Qohelet begins at nihilism: "Everything is meaningless! Utterly meaningless!" from 1.2. But he fleshes out what he means by everything, and what he means by meaningless, and he imparts wisdom. By the time he restates his thesis in 12.8 ("All of these things are futile!") he has explained why his view differs from nihilism and why nihilism is not correct.
Ramzi wrote:
I only point this out because you said: "Besides, what does it matter the source of wisdom if it can be shown that such wisdom is accurate?" Accurate in what sense? It seems to apply to your life? It makes you happy? Very well.
Accurate because it is a truth. My "what does it matter the source" is because he did not want to read a religious text, rather a philosophical one (question: what's the difference?). Wisdom is wisdom, philosophy is philosophy.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Joined: 3/25/2004
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You've caught my interest. I'm having trouble finding anything on the Qohelet. Do you have a website or a book or something? I am skeptical. I imagine if nihilism had been solved, our modern philosophers wouldn't have had such difficulty with it. :-P There will probably be a difference in the Qohelet's definition of nihilism, and my own. And if not, I imagine there would be an aspect of the process which I take issue with. I agree with you about your statement about source. I think he meant that religious texts usually place a lot of emphasis on faith, whereas philosophy texts try to show the steps to the conclusion they make. One would rather see than to believe.
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Yesh, thats what I meant. I'm not to good at these things. :/