Topic by diggidoyo

Posted: 2/22/2011 2:30 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (580)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Don't forget the beat call purchase that is required for a Commando Man start with Mega Man. That will eat real-time but will barely affect in-game time. I really think Hard mode was just added as additional content to extend replayability. It compares to the DLC superhero mode from MM9, in that there are a plethora of added enemies that only serve to slow gameplay. The game was meant to be played on Normal. So, in my opinion (influenced collectively from others), the categories we should have are: -Mega Man Normal -Proto Man Normal -Bass Hard DLC -Mega Man Hard DLC This let's the content available from the start be included, and then two more categories for additional unlocked and interesting content. Anyone agree?

Posted: 2/22/2011 3:01 PM

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Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4138)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
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Yes, that's exactly what I had in mind.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 2/22/2011 3:30 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (580)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

So what were you thinking after Blade Man? Continue with the weakness pattern to Strike Man, or use the Buster+Blade on Chill Man?

Posted: 2/22/2011 3:30 PM

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scrimpeh

Editor, Skilled player (1404)

Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 2086

I'm for that as well.

Posted: 2/22/2011 3:35 PM

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Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4138)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands

diggidoyo wrote:

So what were you thinking after Blade Man? Continue with the weakness pattern to Strike Man, or use the Buster+Blade on Chill Man?

I was thinking to do Chill Man and Nitro Man after Blade Man, so we'd have Wheel Cutter to save time in the following stages. Going on with the weakness order (Strike Man and so on) would only save less than a second on Chill Man, and you'd lose from not having Wheel Cutter in some stages. So, in short, full route: Commando Man, Blade Man, Chill Man, Nitro Man, Strike Man, Sheep Man, Pump Man, Solar Man.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 2/22/2011 3:52 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (580)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Love it. Especially how different it is from conventional routes. Can't wait to see how it looks.

Posted: 2/22/2011 3:57 PM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

Kirkq wrote:

"Aims for in-game time" http://tasvideos.org/Movies-C1012Y.html This may or may not be tagged on relevant movies. Most games don't even really have an explicit in-game timer, but many that do have an in-game run. Also see the Goldeneye and Perfect Dark TASes on the workbench.

Still not that many. But really that's besides the point. I really don't see the point in ingame time runs unlss they differ a lot from real time runs. And I can't see that for Mega Man. Or what would you do differently, besides chosing a lower difficulty?

Posted: 2/22/2011 4:25 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (580)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

I've already pointed out where the timing discrepancy exists for Mega Man. I have to purchase a Beat Call after Commando Man. Adds nothing to the in-game timer, but the time it takes to go through the shop might be enough to make a Chill or Pump starting route faster. That right there is drastically different. Then factor in tank usage and you have a definitive reason to use in-game time, with real time minimized (slow menu scrolling would be grounds for rejection). Besides, the game includes a timer, so why would we not use it? It only ticks when you have direct control over Mega Man. This excludes energy pick-ups, intros, menus, etc. which, if I'm not mistaken, is exactly what TASvideos aims for.

Posted: 2/22/2011 10:00 PM

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Kirkq

Player (208)

Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US

diggidoyo wrote:

-Mega Man Normal -Proto Man Normal -Bass Hard DLC -Mega Man Hard DLC

I am agreeable to this, assuming Megaman Normal is in-game time, and Megaman Hard is real time. Proto Man Normal/Hard I'm not so sure about, but it isn't terribly relevant right now. I was just trying to encourage discussion on the topic and by no means trying to be any sort of final say on this.

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Posted: 2/22/2011 10:33 PM

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Scepheo

Player (142)

Joined: 7/16/2009
Posts: 686

diggidoyo wrote:

It only ticks when you have direct control over Mega Man. This excludes energy pick-ups, intros, menus, etc. which, if I'm not mistaken, is exactly what TASvideos aims for.

I think you're wrong. I've always understood that it's about minimizing the total time. "As fast as possible" does not mean "As fast as possible when factoring out the time spent in menus".

Posted: 2/22/2011 11:00 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (580)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Scepheo wrote:

diggidoyo wrote:
It only ticks when you have direct control over Mega Man. This excludes energy pick-ups, intros, menus, etc. which, if I'm not mistaken, is exactly what TASvideos aims for.
I think you're wrong. I've always understood that it's about minimizing the total time. "As fast as possible" does not mean "As fast as possible when factoring out the time spent in menus".

A valid argument. Which is why I believe real time should be minimized. But what about sacrificing real time to optimize the playable game time? I'd be saddened to have to scrap the Commando Man start because a trip to the store for a Beat Call takes too long. How did the other in-game timed games become listed in that category?

Posted: 2/23/2011 2:04 AM

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Sir_VG

He/Him

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Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1911
Location: Floating Tower

diggidoyo wrote:

I've already pointed out where the timing discrepancy exists for Mega Man. I have to purchase a Beat Call after Commando Man. Adds nothing to the in-game timer, but the time it takes to go through the shop might be enough to make a Chill or Pump starting route faster. That right there is drastically different. Then factor in tank usage and you have a definitive reason to use in-game time, with real time minimized (slow menu scrolling would be grounds for rejection). Besides, the game includes a timer, so why would we not use it? It only ticks when you have direct control over Mega Man. This excludes energy pick-ups, intros, menus, etc. which, if I'm not mistaken, is exactly what TASvideos aims for.

Actually, the timer works a bit differently in MM10 then MM9, at least judging by the time attack mode. The timer stops only: 1. After a boss is defeated. 2. If you're in a shop/stage select screen. 3. Pre-stage introduction The time DOES continue during weapon/energy collections, during boss appearances. It starts when the stage appears and ends when the boss is beaten. Yes, even if you're on the start screen, which does NOT pause the timer anymore.

Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing

Posted: 2/23/2011 3:58 AM

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Satoryu

Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 272

But that's Time Attack. Full game's timer appears to act the same as 9's.

Posted: 2/23/2011 4:05 AM

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kuja_killer

Player (48)

Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 123
Location: Lake Havasu, Arizona

Sir VG i've actually tested myself personally. That's incorrect im afraid. Well just only in terms of being in weapon pause menu i mean. One time i just went to commando man with 0 lives, open weapon menu, let it sit for 5 minutes or so while listening to the music...then later unpause, go in the quicksand and let mm die for game over, save - and timer only went up by 10 seconds.

Posted: 2/23/2011 5:56 AM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (580)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

The only reason why people suspected otherwise was because the saved games (for whatever reason) round the time to :x1. Not sure why they chose to make it do that since that makes it hard on the console to see if you've improved on a certain level until you cut enough time to reach the next :x1 bracket. But the time attack has its own timing mechanism, which doesn't stop for anything except pause. The full game times like I mentioned, and this is why a good (by console standards) Chill Man run saves at 1:21 when not even a TAS can beat it that fast in time trial.

Posted: 2/24/2011 9:57 AM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (580)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Alright, I've been doing some more route planning, and I can almost guarantee a Commando Man start is the fastest route for Proto Man, because his Rush Jet alleviates all the problems I'm having with Mega Man. I'm going to do some precise frame calculations over the weekend, but here's basically what I'm facing: -It only takes 2 extra frames to grab the screws I need. -Not having Rush Jet means I lose a lot of time during the backwards sandstorm. -The last pit before Blade Man is too big to jump over, so I need to either purchase and use beat call, or use the see-saw (see-saw might be faster real time, but beat is definately faster with in-game time). So I have to see how much time I'm losing at these parts, then see if the T. Blade saves me enough time on the Chill and Nitro Man fights to make up for it. I'm still testing in Time Trial replays for now, because the Dolphin still has some sync issues that prevent a full game playback from being reliable. Once those issues are resolved, I'll start my full game run.

Posted: 2/24/2011 9:59 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (580)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Sadly, after further testing, I've determined the Commando Man start to be a Proto Man/Bass route only. Mega Man just simply loses too much time with the Jet. Having T. Blade saves about 5 seconds on Chill Man and about a second on Nitro Man. I know I lose 2-3 seconds on the buster only Commando Man & Tri-Castle fight... and then even though I didn't test them, I'm pretty sure I lose at least 10 seconds running through the backwards sandstorm and using beat call in the pit. Too much sacrifice for a little gain. Mega Man is stuck with either Chill Man or Pump Man as his starting point. I'll figure out which one soon.

Posted: 2/25/2011 5:03 AM

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kuja_killer

Player (48)

Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 123
Location: Lake Havasu, Arizona

This is a little embarrasing of me to ask in this thread specifically but... Do the wily levels HAVE to be played through in order for them to be unlocked in Time Attack ? Or is there a quick fast hack-ish way to get them instantly without playing them ? http://www.a3share.com/members/1119/code.PNG - i was looking through the list of codes here, but didn't find anything related to it exactly. Like "instantly unlock all levels" or something like that. But well i found this "stage modifier" here, haven't tried it out but, i'd rather just quickly get all the levels without having to play through them all once. I do not use any of these codes or anything, i was just looking to see if it were possible to get them fast and quick, nothing more. Or uhh, well a seperate .WAD file has to be downloaded right ? but that's only for the DLC ? **because of your wily 4 TAS, i had this feeling you had them unlocked somehow without actually going through the regular game mode** ---- edit: nevermind i figured it out now. I just used the stage modifier code, warp to wily 5, complete that and go through the ending and all, and it finally unlocked. heh.

Posted: 2/28/2011 8:55 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (580)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

I changed my mind again. When I said Mega Man can't start with Commando Man, I completely forgot about the time saved by having the Thunder Wool on Pump AND an ice block breaking weapon in Chill Man's stage. Usually its one or the other. And it only takes 100-200 frames to purchase a beat call. With this new knowledge, I went ahead and tested the full Commando Man starting stage with Mega Man on normal. Partly to test the route, but also to test the rerecording and playback capabilities of the Wii. Took some wrestling with the Dolphin to complete, but I finally finished the entire stage with a 1:21 save (obviously I won't save in the real run). I'll post the .dtm and the .avi when I get home. But I have a quick question. This was recorded from starting the game without inputting your name, since I had already done this previously. Am I correct in assuming that for the run to be accepted here at TASvideos I'll have to start the game from complete scratch, as in with the name select screen included? If so, I will rerun my Commando Man stage (I know some improvments that can be made anyways).

Posted: 2/28/2011 8:58 PM

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Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4138)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands

Yes, you'll have to start the game from complete scratch. You may have to just delete save files completely where Dolphin stores them.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 2/28/2011 9:00 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (580)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Copy that. I'll still upload the files for reference in case anyone is interested. I'd also like to see if anyone can play back my .dtm correctly synced as I can. I also did some pondering over the real time vs in game time debate, I too now believe all the runs for this game should be timed in real time since real time is how TASvideos was established. And techincally, in-game time for Mega Man 10 can always be minimized further by using the weapon select screen anytime you need to change to a weapon more than 2 slots away, because the in-game frames would be less than weapon switching with the buttons. And no one wants to see a run abusing the menus.

Posted: 2/28/2011 9:07 PM

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4matsy

Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 498

Speaking of which, maybe the entered name should have "TAS" in it somewhere, in case some troll decides to upload the run onto the actual leaderboards or something...<_<'

Posted: 2/28/2011 9:23 PM

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Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4138)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands

Or just enter your username. The few seconds difference it would make at best don't really matter. Come to think of it, I wonder how to fit "AngerFist & Mothrayas" in the username field...

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 2/28/2011 9:32 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (580)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

How exactly are you guys tag teaming this game? Do you know each in real life or just communicate ideas and share .dtm's over the net? And have you already started?

Posted: 2/28/2011 9:36 PM

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4matsy

Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 498

Mothrayas wrote:

Come to think of it, I wonder how to fit "AngerFist & Mothrayas" in the username field...

"Anger&Moth"? "Afist&Moth"? "Angerrayas"? "Moth&Fisty"?