First thing first, I do not intend to finish this unless I claim otherwise; I just wished to try and see how well my laptop could handle this game.
Link to video
About the run itself, I followed the route of the singe segment run made in Speeddemosarchives.com with minor changes to make it a bit faster. This isn't perfect as there are improvements here and there, but I've tried to make this decently optimized... except from the last part unfortunately as I ran out of throwing stars and had to use shurikens instead. Despite this I still manage to save about six minutes.
All enemy drops were happening mostly at random with little influence from me and so I got most things I need from pots.
I played until I reached one of the Guardians as I feel it is long enough run to perhaps use as a comparison for future runs.
If anyone has any questions I'll try to answer them.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential.
Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
The current SDA route is out of date. It would be worth watching UltraJMan's streams to see how the latest route pans out. For starters, the new route has 120 gold before warping to the village for the first time so both the Glyph Reader and Handy Scanner can be bought at once.
I'm sure enemy drops are going to be somewhat easier to manage than is displayed here. In real time I've observed it is possible to manipulate one of the birds just before the weight platform above the entrance to always give a drop if hit at the right time.
There's the possibility of manipulating the enemy start positions and behaviour too. For example, it would be possible to manipulate a bat to knock you down the long ladder in the room with the first Life Jewel, it looks like a significant saving. It should also be possible to kill both of the bats that reveal the Temple of the Sun Jewel as well without having to stop partway down.
Overall, this is done well, but the route needs a lot more thought. I'm impressed with how fast Lemeza can attack, and a nice creative use of the knives in the Bahamut fight. I'm sure it would be possible to manipulate a few more shurikens to save some time there, or perhaps use a few less on the way. This will take a lot more planning, for sure
Wow, this looks gorgeous. I especially like the damage boosts to cut down ladders and go faster - very true to Maze of Galious indeed. I just think some manipulation for the enemies and item drops is in order, I think a lot of time could be saved that way.
Thanks for linking this, I didn't know of this particular run yet. The Beelzebub skip Jman points out in there definitely sounds like something that should be investigated. Also, with tool assistance, sub 2-hours definitely must be possible.
Yeah, I heard the SDA run was out of date, but I didn't know where I could find the new route so I went with this one. I only rarely tried to manipulate enemy paths since I didn't want to spend too much time on a test run which I knew had an outdated route from the beginning, but of course better manipulation would save time everywhere.
An interesting thing someone commented about in Youtube is that I seemed to enter shops much slower than normally. After experimenting a bit on Hourglass I noticed that if I increased the FPS the transition went faster. From about 4.3 seconds at 30 FPS it went to 2.2 seconds at 60 FPS, 1.3 seconds at 120 FPS and 1,1 seconds at 150 FPS. Even at 600 FPS it wouldn't go faster than 1 second. Even the blue MSX screen which you see when you start the game also dissapears faster with increased FPS (7.17 seconds at 30 FPS, 3.58 seconds at 60 FPS, 3.23 seconds at 120 FPS and 3.17 seconds at 600 FPS). Despite the increased FPS in Hourglass, the game itself runs at 30 FPS as it normally would, skipping ahead of the frames "in between". Though the encode of this both takes longer and is much larger than when I had set 30 FPS in Hourglass.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential.
Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
Link to video
Just some experimenting with manipulating the Cockatrice at the beginning to drop weights.
A few things I've noticed is that every time the birds makes a new action (pecking, looking up, looking behind, walking) it changes the drop RNG. Also instantly exiting and entering an area won't change the RNG, but if you wait for any enemy to do any action first before re entering the RNG will change (as well as enemy actions). I haven't examined how much enemy actions will change depending on your own actions and position. Though killing one of them will will change the actions of everyone else.
I mostly just wait for the right action before killing the birds, actions which sometimes lasts just a few frames before a new action, and the RNG changes again. With this I managed to get 20 rocks in three minutes, but it could be faster had I tried harder.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential.
Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
I've been thinking of it on and off, but mostly had other things I've decided to do instead. Though I might try to continue this when I can get enough motivation for it.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential.
Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
Link to video
I decided to give this another go, now using the (which I hope is this time) the "correct" route. "Correct" as in the best one I know of so far without considering TAS routes. I intend this to be a test run in order to see what can be skipped and not, so unless anyone thinks it'll be submittable I don't think I'll submit it.
One thing I should mention that differs compared to RTA attempts is entering huts, doors and such is a little slower in this TAS, probably due to having a fixed 60 FPS at all time. Had I increased it some more the transitions would be faster, but the movie files would be way bigger. So I'll stick with 60 FPS for now.
If anyone has any thoughts or questions I'll try to answer them.
By the way, how do I post in the WIP section?
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential.
Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
Looks good! I have a question, from a TAS perspective what are the mechanisms by which you manipulate enemy movement? You said that the RNG is popped whenever an enemy has to decide what action to take, but is that also influenced itself by where you are on the level / what you kill and when?
Oh, this is wonderful. I wasn't aware you could turn around while swinging the whip like that. Can you use it to do extra damage to bosses? Because that would be seriously awesome.
Great movement optimization and enemy manipulation too, I'm really looking forward to more.
Looks good! I have a question, from a TAS perspective what are the mechanisms by which you manipulate enemy movement? You said that the RNG is popped whenever an enemy has to decide what action to take, but is that also influenced itself by where you are on the level / what you kill and when?
I haven't investigated it completely, but I believe it does change depending on your position, though I'd have to move quite a distance for it to matter. What I kill and when I kill them matters heavily in influencing the RNG since that'll mean the number of enemies to advance the RNG pattern changes. Of course the pattern itself changes as well so one has to experiment a lot in order to get a favourable one.
For example in the room before the Grail, I have to hit all the skeletons and bats the way I did in order for the bats in the next room to move exactly where I want them to. Otherwise they'll just fly somewhere else and be a nuisance.
scrimpeh wrote:
Oh, this is wonderful. I wasn't aware you could turn around while swinging the whip like that. Can you use it to do extra damage to bosses? Because that would be seriously awesome.
Great movement optimization and enemy manipulation too, I'm really looking forward to more.
Yes, indeed you can (ok, I haven't actually tried it on the big bosses yet, but it works on every other enemy you meet). You hit an enemy every new frame a weapon hits them, which means moving away the second frame and moving back in the third frame you'll hit it again. Since the whip animation (when extended) lasts for five frames and the dagger for six, you'll be able to hit an enemy three times with every attack. If you can manage it, you can use the beginning attack animation of the whip together with the final one.
I do this all the time with the pots which all require three hits to destroy.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential.
Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
You won't have much use for the Gauntlet since you can abuse weapons so easily. And the quick damage works on bosses. The only ones you might have problems doing that with are Viy and Elmac.
Also, people have been able to get hit and glitch into walls and the ceiling. Though people haven't been able to find a reliable way to do it. I've never had it happen to me personally. It's considered TAS only territory. If you could figure out how it works, that would be awesomeness. It would also change the route you'd want to take in some places.
Also, people have been able to get hit and glitch into walls and the ceiling. Though people haven't been able to find a reliable way to do it. I've never had it happen to me personally. It's considered TAS only territory. If you could figure out how it works, that would be awesomeness. It would also change the route you'd want to take in some places.
Do you have any videos of this? The only glitch-into-walls I know off the top of my head are the one in Infinite Corridor and the one in late game Chamber of Extinction from the statue dude.
Getting inside walls has been know about for some time, when playing around with Tas programs I found that you can glitch into almost any corner wall in the game, the problem is doing it in real time is pretty much impossible except in a few points.
Based on the video and Anon's description, you could probably glitch through any corner with a well timed damage boost. Though, you may want to contact him in case he has any details. I tried testing it myself when practicing for my single segment runs, but couldn't ever get it to happen. Though I was trying to do it in real time.
You won't have much use for the Gauntlet since you can abuse weapons so easily. And the quick damage works on bosses. The only ones you might have problems doing that with are Viy and Elmac.
Also, people have been able to get hit and glitch into walls and the ceiling. Though people haven't been able to find a reliable way to do it. I've never had it happen to me personally. It's considered TAS only territory. If you could figure out how it works, that would be awesomeness. It would also change the route you'd want to take in some places.
Thanks for mentioning the Gauntlet, I do believe they would be more of a hindrance than help. Also we'll see if I might come up with something for Viy and Elmac, TASes has potential to do some pretty ridiculous things. ;)
That wall glitch looks really interesting, though I couldn't replicate it either while trying for a while. I sent a message to Anonymous52555 asking about this, so we'll see if he can shed some light on this glitch. Unless I/others can discover any good spots to use this glitch, think I'll stick with the route with some minor changes where I deem them appropriate.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential.
Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
Wow, the multihitting and all the little damage boosts make this even more interesting than I expected already. I’m sure it’ll get even better when TAS-only tricks open up new routes.
Link to video
Second WIP, and now comes opportunities to skip things which I can get otherwise or don't need at all. There's surely other things I could also skip, but that's why I'm doing this test run here so we'll know afterwards.
Next WIP will be Bahamut.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential.
Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
Close to the bottom of a ladder, it is possible to walk off, falling straight down. Have you investigated to see whether it saves any frames to do it? (Frankly, I doubt it, considering you walk down ladders fairly fast as it is, but still)
In either case, I love you.
Close to the bottom of a ladder, it is possible to walk off, falling straight down. Have you investigated to see whether it saves any frames to do it? (Frankly, I doubt it, considering you walk down ladders fairly fast as it is, but still)
In either case, I love you.
Yes, it is possible. But unfortunately it doesn't save any frames as it takes more time to reach the bottom compared to just climbing down normally.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential.
Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
Just found out right now there's a new and faster La-Mulana run on SDA. Fortunately for me it doesn't change anything major which I have either changed or skipped completely already. There are a few places where it saves a little more time compared to my TAS, but it won't make that much of a difference if I went back to redo those parts for this test run.
I'll have to watch through this run later on and see what route they've taken to make it faster.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential.
Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
Link to video
Those elevators are annoying bottlenecks, though can't do much about them since they go at their own speed. Although I might've been able to reach the first one in time had the enemies positioned themselves just where I need them to and/or if I've had enough health. Of course they weren't that helpful right now, so I'll have to be fine with this and try harder for the next run.
Also I should mention I've improved the Bahamut fight compared to last time.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential.
Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
