Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Nach wrote:
Dada wrote:
Because the SGB was an afterthought.
Quit it with this "afterthought" business, some games show clearly otherwise.
Then we can encode those "some games" with a 4:3 aspect ratio. But you haven't shown me one single game that actually has two sets of main artwork (beyond just the borders, that is) with one of them being specifically made for 4:3.
Remember, we're talking about the geometry of the artwork here. Can you show me even one game that specifically has a SGB-only function that corrects the artwork? For all games that don't have this and that don't explicitly seem to be made with SGB as its primary (not just plain old support) output, we must assume they were in fact made for the GB in the first place and SGB in the second place and that the GB pixel aspect ratio should therefore prevail.
Unless you can somehow prove that the SGB was in fact more popular than the GB/GBC.
edit: by the way, there have been calls on IRC to just make a poll out of this. It makes sense to me. This is an end user issue, after all. They're the ones who watch our encodes. I'd be on board with settling the issue that way. There's enough popular support for a special exception for the SGB for it to be on the table.
Developer intention is something we need to get away from, considering what TASVideos is in the business of doing with games.
That said, I'm finding it hard to decide which side of the argument to get behind. While the SGB is clearly made for TV display of GB/GBC games, it does make some sense to consider a 4:3 aspect, since that is the way it would appear on a TV. This does create the stretching effect seen, and while this is noticeable, for me it isn't distracting, just a side effect of how the hardware works.
One side of me says however - how many people watch TAS runs on a TV? I'm used to a stretching effect anyway on my 19" widescreen monitor.
One thing no-one has proposed yet is an actual change to the rules surrounding this situation - just a lot of discussion about splitting hairs, from my perspective. We're letting the little things get in the way of our purpose - making encodes for people who don't or can't watch TAS runs on emulator.
So here's how I'm leaning - 4:3, while looking stretched on a lot of games, is probably the way to go here.
I'm against the idea of using non-pixel-correct aspect ratios for recorded video in the first place - after all, most games rarely ever took aspect ratio into consideration.
Looking at what the developers could have done is irrelevant. The point is, most developers did not, no matter if their game was for Super Game Boy or the SNES or whichever.
Likewise, saying "it's on the SGB" is a cop-out. Is there any evidence to say that the developers game a damn about aspect ratio? Are there any games that, when loaded on the SGB, change their graphics to look correct on a TV? There are few Game Boy games with SGB features to begin with, and it seems to me that the majority of them only used the SGB to add colours and borders. There's only, as far as I know, one game that really changes things around for the SGB - Space Invaders - but that loads a SNES version of the game, not changes the graphics in the Game Boy one.
If people want a "correct" aspect ratio that badly, they could always just stretch it themselves.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
We're having a big argument on how to encode Super Game Boy runs.
The argument hinges on what is accurate for the Super Game Boy, the Game Boy, and whatever looks better.
In whichever case we encode, you're always free to change the aspect ratio yourself.
What do you think we should be doing?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
Picked #2 also, agreeing with above post.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
ShadowWraith wrote:
I chose #2 also. Stretched pixels = ugly. :(
Your logic makes little sense. For the games where it looks ugly not to stretch it, you still want #2?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
This is a very confusing poll. I don't think we should be using the SGB because it offers very little extra and adds hideous borders to the output, but I also think it's important we don't stretch the output for the SGB specifically.
So which one do I vote for? #9 or #2?
Multiple options would be useful in this case. Or just remove #9 entirely because it's mostly a separate discussion.
edit: I guess I'll just vote for #2 because of the numerous reasons outlined in this topic. However, that does not mean I support removing the aspect ratio correction for all other consoles.
We can reasonably expect that all other consoles were made with a 4:3 output in mind. The SGB was not because the SGB just plays GB games, and practically all GB games were primarily made with a square pixel aspect ratio in mind. Therefore we should make a special exception (which is option #2).
The important thing to realize here is that there are no SGB games, there are only GB games that the SGB displays incorrectly (barring an extremely low amount of exceptions).
My personal favourite would be to crop the crappy borders and leave the gameplay area, that way you can have all the advantages of SGB with an GB-like encode.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
ShadowWraith wrote:
I have not seen a game that falls under that category.
But if such a game existed, you'd want #3, no?
roxahris wrote:
Nach wrote:
For the games where it looks ugly not to stretch it, you still want #2?
Can you point to a specific example?
Unfortunately, I don't have enough sample data on hand. But I imagine Space Invaders would look quite weird.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Nach wrote:
roxahris wrote:
Nach wrote:
For the games where it looks ugly not to stretch it, you still want #2?
Can you point to a specific example?
Unfortunately, I don't have enough sample data on hand. But I imagine Space Invaders would look quite weird.
It wouldn't be such a big deal to make exceptions for specific cases, if a good case can be made. I still voted for #2 because I think we should cross that bridge when we get there.
EDIT: by the way, I assume that option #3 would entail turning aspect ratio correction off for the vast majority of games (and indeed all SGB games we currently have on the site). So in practice #3 is almost the same as #2, except it explicitly allows for possible exceptions in the future.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Dada wrote:
Nach wrote:
roxahris wrote:
Nach wrote:
For the games where it looks ugly not to stretch it, you still want #2?
Can you point to a specific example?
Unfortunately, I don't have enough sample data on hand. But I imagine Space Invaders would look quite weird.
It wouldn't be such a big deal to make exceptions for specific cases, if a good case can be made. I still voted for #2 because I think we should cross that bridge when we get there.
EDIT: by the way, I assume that option #3 would entail turning aspect ratio correction off for the vast majority of games (and indeed all SGB games we currently have on the site). So in practice #3 is almost the same as #2, except it explicitly allows for possible exceptions in the future.
3 is 2, except you allow for exceptions. So you really mean #3 in the end then. We really should look at the Game & Watch games in bsnes...
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
We really should look at the Game & Watch games in bsnes...
Here's an exception - let's make this the rule? I disagree you should look at one game and make this the example to go by. If anything, this suggests you agree with taking games on a case-by-case basis, which is what should be done.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Toothache wrote:
Nach wrote:
We really should look at the Game & Watch games in bsnes...
Here's an exception - let's make this the rule? I disagree you should look at one game and make this the example to go by. If anything, this suggests you agree with taking games on a case-by-case basis, which is what should be done.
I didn't say anything that you think I'm saying.
Case by case basis is option #3 which makes the rule whatever looks better in each case, along with all possible exceptions - to make it look better in each case.
Bisqwit wrote:
Nach, would you kindly show us a sample of a Super Game Boy game that has art specifically designed to look good on a 1990s television?
Unfortunately, as I said before, I don't have enough data on hand, which is why we should be looking for it, and not throw out ideas based on incomplete info.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
My view on this issue is the following:
The SNES streatching the GameBoy image to the 4:3 aspect ratio of a TV was a mistake (or, more precisely, just a question of "they didn't care"), and past mistakes don't justify repeating them.
"They didn't care" in this case means that, most probably, the people who designed the system just didn't care if the image gets stretched (ie. completely disregarding the game designers, who had developed the games for the GameBoy's screen), and simply wanted for the image to fill the entire TV screen because "black bars are evil" (the exact same reason why people stretch 4:3 images to 16:9 on widescreen TVs; it's idiotic and wrong).
What the SGB designers did was wrong. We shouldn't repeat the same mistake just because they did it. Hence I vote for the original aspect ratio of the game to be preserved.
Joined: 3/9/2004
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Warp wrote:
What the SGB designers did was wrong. We shouldn't repeat the same mistake just because they did it. Hence I vote for the original aspect ratio of the game to be preserved.
What about when the SGB game isn't quite the same game as the DMG version?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
From these 3 images, which do you think looks best?
Edit:
My point of reference for which looks correct is that the crossbar to control the character on a Game & Watch is perfectly squarish.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Edit:
My point of reference for which looks correct is that the crossbar to control the character on a Game & Watch is perfectly squarish.
