Posted: 8/7/2011 4:24 PM
Post subject: Games with lots of non-gameplay time
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subanark
Joined: 2/8/2006
Posts: 60
For games that have a lot of non-skippable cut scenes or dialog, would it be acceptable to add a script with the runs that fast forwards though all the uninteresting parts of the game (then published with that script). I ask this for 2 reasons, first can the developers simply not including a skip dialog option make the game a lot harder to publish a TAS of, and second, a lot of the game acceptance is entrainment value, so if a game is made more entertaining though fast forwards (and subtitles), shouldn't it rate more likely to be published? The games in question I am think of is Card Hero (either the GBC or DS version). The game includes a lot, and I mean a lot, of unskippable dialog on both versions, but the technical challenge of beating these opponents is much more complex than the Pokémon's TCG as: 1. You can't force a lose by having your opponent not have any pokémon. 2. The deck size is a lot smaller (15-30 depending on variant). 3. The cards you get in story mode are fixed. 4. Some computer players will cheat and stack their deck (they don't shuffle). However, even with those considerations, the game might also be a bad choice (at least for me), since it is only in Japanese, and I don't speak Japanese.
Posted: 8/7/2011 4:44 PM
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Warp
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Speeding up or skipping parts of the end result of a TAS goes against the basic principles that we do not cheat. We fought hard to (mostly) get rid of the negative hype that we are cheating (hacking the games to make impossible feats possible, editing the resulting videos, and so on). In fact, even today many misinformed people will make such claims when they see a TAS. Actually going and doing exactly what they are incorrectly blaming us of doing isn't going to help the issue.
Posted: 8/7/2011 4:48 PM
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Mukki
Skilled player (1099)
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
GBA TASer of 2012 GBA TAS of 2012 Lucky TAS of 2011 Gameboy TAS of 2011 N64 TASer of 2007
Your run must be publishable on its own merits as it is the input file, not a subsequent encode, that is being judged. However, if the publishability is already established, and you choose to include a script or an encode that removes particularly boring aspects alongside the run in order to make it more interesting then you are free to do so. See: http://www.archive.org/details/SuperMetroidTAS_NoCutscenes_ByJXQ
http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html
Posted: 8/7/2011 5:24 PM
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subanark
Joined: 2/8/2006
Posts: 60
I guess the question is how much penalty is there in a game that has excessive non-gameplay content. Also, I don't see how speeding things up is cheating. The frame count is the same no matter how fast you play it.
Posted: 8/8/2011 5:18 AM
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Randil
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
An easy way to solve this is to use the turbo feature of lua. Basically "if (downtime) then (turbo mode) else (normal speed) end". I've made this kind of script (just for fun) for a few games, Solstice for example, and it works well. Actually skipping the cutscenes would be harder - if done in the emulator, you'd need savestates on all places where you skip a scene. .avi-editing is probably easier then.
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Posted: 8/8/2011 5:19 AM
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DarkKobold
Skilled player (1652)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Arcade TASer of 2010 PCE TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2009 Lucky TAS of 2007
subanark wrote:
I guess the question is how much penalty is there in a game that has excessive non-gameplay content. Also, I don't see how speeding things up is cheating. The frame count is the same no matter how fast you play it.
People will evaluate the movie however they choose to. Your best bet is to try and hype up the movie by posting WIPs.
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Posted: 8/8/2011 6:11 AM
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Warp
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
subanark wrote:
Also, I don't see how speeding things up is cheating. The frame count is the same no matter how fast you play it.
But if the video is captured that way (and eg. posted on youtube), it will be significantly shorter than it should be, with obvious speedups which scream "cheated!" I'm not sure we need that kind of publicity, especially for an official encode.
Posted: 8/8/2011 3:31 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
The title of the video will clearly state the official time, and the description should naturally include a disclaimer. I don't think the main encode for publication should be made with those skips, but I also don't think it's unreasonable for a secondary encode to be made that includes them.
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Posted: 8/8/2011 4:42 PM
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mmbossman
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
GBx TAS of 2008
Derakon wrote:
The title of the video will clearly state the official time, and the description should naturally include a disclaimer. I don't think the main encode for publication should be made with those skips, but I also don't think it's unreasonable for a secondary encode to be made that includes them.
I agree with this^. I requested that a secondary encode for the FDS run that I made have the painfully long loading screens removed, and it makes viewing much more pleasurable.
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Posted: 8/9/2011 10:21 PM
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deuxhero
Joined: 8/7/2011
Posts: 166
How about 2 versions of the youtube video are submited, one real time and one that speeds up the non-gameplay?
Posted: 8/9/2011 10:35 PM
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Niamek
Joined: 10/23/2009
Posts: 545
Location: Where?
I agree with the 2 versions of youtubes videos. As I recall, we already have this with some of games(Games with camhacks feature such as Sonic Advance 1)
Posted: 8/9/2011 10:49 PM
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Zeupar
Joined: 5/14/2007
Posts: 525
Location: Pisces-Cetus filament
niamek wrote:
Games with camhacks feature such as Sonic Advance 1
There aren't two YouTube streams for that TAS.
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Posted: 8/10/2011 9:24 PM
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Saethori
Joined: 6/26/2011
Posts: 167
I concur with the multiple encode idea. For example, Vykan12's recent Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones run provided optional additional encodes that cut out a lot of the slack from the run. The input file was still certainly good enough to publish on its own merits, but the alternate encode makes it a lot easier to go through for some people. Every game has at least some slow parts, but RPGs and Strategy Games have the greatest to benefit. Those are the games people have the hardest time really working with here on the website, since it's easy to take ten minutes off to watch a platforming run, but not as easy to take three hours to watch an RPG.
First a movie gets submitted, and ends up accepted despite breaking rules other runs have been rejected for. And when I vote less than spectacularly on this movie, I become the victim of harassment and threats. Yay, favoritism.
Posted: 8/10/2011 10:00 PM
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Niamek
Joined: 10/23/2009
Posts: 545
Location: Where?
Zeupar wrote:
niamek wrote:
Games with camhacks feature such as Sonic Advance 1
There aren't two YouTube streams for that TAS.
No,but I remember there was these two encode at least on the forum. That what I was meaning. Sorry about being unclear.
Posted: 8/11/2011 5:28 PM
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SXL
Joined: 2/7/2005
Posts: 571
You guys are soooooo 2004. You know that these days, you can add links in the movies, at most video sites to skip anywhere ? Input and output would remain the same, the uploaded just have to create those annoying boxes wherever see fit.
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