Joined: 10/4/2004
Posts: 17
One of the hardest games on snes. Anyone finished this game before?
We are here only to improve the battleground for next generations. Ifa
Former player
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 484
Location: ­­
I believe this site doesn't accept pirate games.
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Ha ha, I get it! PIRATE games! Ha ha ha ha ha!
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Former player
Joined: 9/12/2004
Posts: 184
Location: Austria/Styria
LOL! That was a funny one haha Uhm sorry I don't know that game, is this a game about the Disney (?) film "Hook" ?
Joined: 6/4/2004
Posts: 284
Indeed; this story is based off the movie "Hook", itself an interpretation of "Peter Pan". Considering that Peter moves at a fast pace when running and flying, as well as how the jumping looks, it would be an impressive acro/aerobatc movie, if done well. Regardless, my submission is currently in review, so the link here has been removed.
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
Hello, I'm going to take look at Hook and see if I can manage to find any ways to improve on hero of the day's TAS. One thing though: I'm wondering if I can change the ROM from Hook (U) (29252) to Hook (U) (2648) if I manage to make something worthy of a submission. Rationale: A while ago, Overload picked up a cart of the US version of Hook off eBay. When he dumped it, the ROM image was Hook (U) (2648), rather than Hook (U) (29252), which was the version of Hook in NSRT at that time. Correct me if I'm wrong, Nach, but I believe Nach thought that that was strange, because Hook (U) (2648) looked very similar to the European version. I got a cart of the US version of Hook and dumped it, and the resulting ROM image was also Hook (U) (2648). Just to be sure that there wasn't something funky with the European version, I got a copy of that version too, and dumped it. The resulting ROM image matched up with what was in NSRT. So Hook (U) (2648) is now considered the correct US version in both NSRT and No-Intro. Hook (U) (29252) is now labeled as a beta version in both NSRT and No-Intro, not that I'm sure how certain we are of that. The point of all this is that Hook (U) (2648) is more likely to be the "correct" US version.
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Glad to hear you are taking a stab at this game. I don't know of anything is specific that can be improved, but I feel like the later levels are tough to optimize and maybe a few seconds can be gained on my run. I do not think it matters what version you use. I went with (29252) only because Nach said it was the correct dump. The checksum for the (2648) was ok, so I don't see any reason why it couldn't be used. Either way, good luck!
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
I've started on a TAS, using Hook (2648), and have finished level 1 so far. I didn't think I would find much to optimize at all in level 1, but I saved more frames than I expected. Measuring from reset to when the level 1 scoring screen (or whatever you call it) starts to fade out, I've saved 75 frames over hero of the day's TAS. I don't think any of the savings so far are due to ROM differences, because my TAS so far doesn't desync with Hook (29252). Some things that save time: 1. It turns out that attacks done on the ground while running result in 1 frame of no movement on the X-axis during the attack. A jump started from a run results in 2 frames total of no movement on the X-axis during the jump, same for letting Peter Pan run off a ledge. All of these things will, other than those delays, move Peter Pan forward at the same rate as running. I used this knowledge to try to shave off a few frames. 2. I was able to advance through the stuff before level 1 a grand total of two frames faster :). 3. I managed to execute the pause trick at the beginning of level 1 a few frames earlier. 4. Trying to go up the ledges after the lake while running, resulting in going across the ledges faster, and in the process managing to skip one of the ledges. 5. A different strategy in the section where you fly. Since Peter Pan gathers pixie dust slightly faster if he isn't already floating, I just had Peter Pan jumping while the pixie dust was collected. I tried to do it so that once Peter Pan had gathered enough pixie dust, he would be positioned at least roughly at the upper-right corner of the area where the game will give Peter Pan pixie dust. I gathered just enough pixie dust to let Peter Pan land on the platform after the one hero of the day landed on. This is because flying is even faster than running, and it turns out that if you land very close to the left edge of that next platform, you still have enough space to get a running jump down most of the multiple ledges that come before the boss. 6. I managed to to hit the boss 2 frames sooner as he comes onscreen. @hero of the day: Do you see anything that might be improvable?
Former player
Joined: 9/20/2006
Posts: 287
Location: Singapore
Wow, savings of 75 frames on the first level only? This will be good :) Will view the WIP as soon as I get a hold of my computer. EDIT: Very nice, it looks very tightly optimized now. Somehow the greater use of jumping makes the run look so much more pleasing to me... probably due to the fact it makes Peter Pan look so much more acrobatic as compared to the mundane running. Good job, can't wait for the next WIP
Truncated wrote:
Truncated is the most fiendish instrument of torture ever devised to bedevil the days of man. -- xoinx
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
I just watch it, very nice, just one little thing, in the middle of the first level you seem to bump in the wall and it would be faster to jump earlier to same maybe a couple of frame
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
This looks great zidanax. I don't really see anything that looks improvable so far, but I will follow your progress and let you know if I see anything later on
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
ZeXr0 wrote:
I just watch it, very nice, just one little thing, in the middle of the first level you seem to bump in the wall and it would be faster to jump earlier to same maybe a couple of frame
I could have started a running jump 2 frames earlier, but that doesn't really matter. Thank you very much anyways, because I experimented with releasing the B button while ascending to the first ledge, and managed to save 15 more frames (!). I also experimented with releasing the B button early during the climb to the last ledge, but it didn't make any difference, and in fact would cause a 1 frame delay compared with my last attempt if I didn't do it exactly right. I also managed to save 3 frames during the flying segment, but unfortunately, the boss didn't go into his vulnerable position until 2 frames later, which was what happened in hero of the day's run. So I lost 2 frames on the first hit of the boss. Oh well, 1 frame saved in total going from the beginning of the flying segment to the boss, and the flying section looks, IMO, a little nicer. However, I was able to save some more time with another trick that I should be able to apply in some other stages. I was thinking how in some games, the score takes more time to "tally" if the character has, say, more time left on the clock at the end of the stage. After many rerecords (and much cursing at the boss), I was able to orchestrate things so that the boss reduced my life to the minimum, and yet I still did the last two hits in the same number of frames as last time. As a result, I spend 31 less frames(!) tallying the score before the screen starts to fade out. Now my time to the frame where level 1 starts to fade out is 4693 frames, 122 frames over hero of the day's run. The WIP is here EDIT: Since the ending music of stage 1 doesn't seem to get cut off by tallying the score quicker, I was curious as to whether or not the next sequence would actually start quicker as a result of the trick. I made copies of both WIPs of my run and compared how long they took to start fading into the next screen when no input is given. It looks like my newer WIP does start the next sequence exactly 47 frames sooner (the total amount my newer WIP improved over the old one), so my trick with tallying the score quicker does appear to work.
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Joined: 8/12/2004
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Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
damn, nice find with the score tallying screen. I wish I had thought of that. That makes for a solid 2 second improvement in the first level over my run, very cool. I am looking forward to seeing the rest of this.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
OK, here's my WIP up to the fadeout of the second level. Improvements: -Managed to skip the second story sequence one frame faster. -Started running one frame faster in the second level (The point I used to measure this was the first frame the character moves two units forward instead of one) -This level in some ways didn't seem to have as much to optimize as level 1: no flying sequences, no trying to go over a lake or up several ledges. There was one thing, however -- since this level has a multitude of places where you have to jump, various ways to move through the level thanks to the branches, and of course, enemies to stand in your way as you leap through the branches, I was able to save a decent amount of time as a result of attempting to find a route that minimized the number of jumps and ground attacks, which cause small delays in forward movement. Much messing around with that... I'm certainly much more familiar with this level now. I was able to save 22 frames in the main portion of the level measuring up to the semiarbitrarily chosen X position indicated by 7E05AF=2512 (appears to be for a scrolling layer, but good enough...) through this kind of optimization, and I was able to fit in some air attacks on enemies... if done right, those don't cause any delay. -The last section of the level was interesting to try to optimize. Measuring from after you jump over the pit between two branches, it seems like getting to the boss takes a bare minimum of three jumps. I was able to find a route through that section with only those three required jumps with no attacks whatsoever, yet this didn't end up giving me the best time I could manage when experimenting with various ways to go through this section. My times seemed strangely incosistent with what I know of how the character's movement works. My guess is that it has to do with lag. At one point in this section, there are four enemies on screen, assuming you don't kill them. My best attempt had a one frame delay apart from the neccessary jump delays, due to a fireball hitting a pirate. I'm guessing the reason that attempt worked best anyways is because it kept the number of enemies onscreen down. If it was indeed lag, I suppose I'll have to watch out for lag in the future when I notice lots of onscreen enemies. BTW, I didn't notice strange behavior like this in stage 1, probably because there is, in my run, just one brief point there with three alive enemies onscreen. -Exact same number of frames per hit on this boss as in hero of the day's run. However, I took advantage of the acorns to minimize my life to use the score tallying trick. Yes, that means I lose the Golden Sword, although there are places to get the sword back in later stages. Hopefully, losing the Golden Sword I had in level 2 won't make me lose frames later, but if it appears later that I should have kept the Golden Sword I had here, I'll go back to this fight. Anyways, I also managed to, on the last hit, position myself so that I was next to the southeast hole, and yet not get hit by the boss emerging, or by falling acorns. So I was able to kill the boss and also be very close to the bottom-right edge of the screen. I had Peter Pan already running once the screen starts to scroll right. I saved 11 frames in getting to the point where Peter Pan gets into his end-of-the-level pose. Quite frankly, I'm not sure exactly why, because while hero of the day did exit the boss section in a different way, it looks like he was running at the bottom right of the screen when the screen started scrolling to the right. -32 frames saved in the score tallying screen, if I'm counting correctly. -In total, 84 frames saved measuring from level 1 fadeout to level 2 fadeout. Level 2 WIP
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
looking good. I don't think losing the golden sword is an issue. Since you will need to damage boost in the 3rd level, you will lose it anyway.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
OK, here is an attempt at level 3. This WIP saves 109 frames from Level 2 fadeout to Level 3 fadeout. -A new strategy in the beginning part of the stage so that I don't get hit and even save some time. This way I can take advantage of the two later time-savers involving hits and not die even though I don't have the golden sword. -Other small changes; I try to play with greater precision. This level was interesting, since it travels vertically instead of horizontally, which makes it harder to optimize. One thing is that it's somewhat harder to find good start and end points for dividing the level into "segments" to use to compare times. Do you guys see anything that looks "off"? The WIP is here
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
Level 4 has been completed Some timesavers: -The start trick was executed 1 frame sooner. -I take the time to collect as much pixie dust as I can at the first collection point, then fly all the way to the second collection point. Flying is slightly faster than running, and given the distance between the two collection points, this more than makes up for the time spent collecting pixie dust. -A new trick I stumbled upon: normally, Peter Pan can't make a running jump off of the platforms in the first part of this level. But for some reason, if you land at the left of a platform from a jump, you can barely manage a running jump. This is used after the second pixie dust collection point. -The 3rd hit on the boss was done 7 frames sooner. -After the boss dies, I got Peter Pan into his end-of-level pose 74 frames sooner. -29 frames saved from the tally trick. In total, 252 frames saved from Level 3 fadeout to Level 4 fadeout! The WIP is here
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
I had a feeling that the flying/running part in the beginning was improvable, nice to see how much can actually be saved. I don't understand how 74 frames were saved at the end of the level though. Almost 10 seconds ahead of my run now, that is awesome.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
hero of the day wrote:
I had a feeling that the flying/running part in the beginning was improvable, nice to see how much can actually be saved. I don't understand how 74 frames were saved at the end of the level though. Almost 10 seconds ahead of my run now, that is awesome.
*compares the runs again* For a little while just after the screen starts scrolling to the right, you appear to have let go of the forward button, slowing you down somewhat, then you have to accelerate back up again. Still, I don't think that would have made that big of a difference. *Looks further*... A ROM difference, maybe? I say that because for some reason, my run, measuring from when the boss dies, starts scrolling exactly 70 frames earlier than yours. I suppose it still counts, since we know the ROM I'm using actually appeared on cartridges (e.g., mine:) ), but we don't know about the other ROM (probably a beta).
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
OK, here is a WIP of level 5. Some time savers: -Instead of only gathering enough pixie dust to fly up the first pit, I gather enough pixie dust to fly up to just before the 2nd icicle. I also manage to fly under the first icicle. -I managed to jump past the 2nd icicle into the water with somewhat greater precision. -Instead of killing the 2nd fish, I go around it. -Most interesting time saver from this level, even though it doesn't save the most time: I found a new trick that lets me get past two of the icicles in the latter part of this stage faster. I was thinking of how when you crouch, you're lower to the ground, so it takes longer for an icicle to hit you. I messed around with crouches a bit, and found that if Peter Pan is running, and you switch to pressing down-right and Y instead of right and Y, Peter Pan will go into a crouch, but he will "slide" a bit while in that crouching position. There is a 2-3 frame window where if you do that "crouch slide" while running under a falling icicle, you will not get hit by the icicle. Your forward movement is slightly slower during the execution of this trick, but it's much faster than waiting for an icicle and jumping over it. BTW, I tried this trick with the icicle over the water, but I can't get it to work, probably because I'm closer to the icicle on the Y axis in that case. Then there's another icicle where it starts falling right when you fall off the ledge leading up to it, so that by the time you've hit the ground, so has the icicle. Besides, I need to be left of the icicle to get into a run early enough for crouch-sliding under the next icicle. -I optimized the gathering of pixie dust at the second collection point somewhat, taking advantage of the fact that when you first switch out of the state of flying, Peter Pan falls very slowly. And when Peter Pan is in a state of free fall, even if it's very slow, he gathers pixie dust faster than if he's hovering. In total, an improvement of 294 frames from level 4 fadeout to level 5 fadeout. The WIP is here EDIT: I decided not to get hit in this stage, because there's no autoscrolling section or boss. In other words, there's no "downtime". Getting hit twice would save me about 30 frames in the score tally screen, but then I lose time when I get hit. Each time I get hit, there's about 30 frames where I have no control of my character, so it's better just to not get hit.
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
OK, a WIP of level 6. -Not as complicated to TAS as level 5, so it's mostly small optimizations here. -Occasionally saved frames due to avoiding going up steep slopes. Note that if the slope isn't quite as steep, you won't lose speed. -Saved 18 frames overall during the boss fight. The first hit was done 18 frames faster, and the 2nd hit 8 frames faster. However, the balloons then came out such that I couldn't get in the third hit until 8 frames later than in hero of the day's run, thus neutralizing the time gained with the 2nd hit. -Some route changes resulting in small time savings. -Small time savings going down the switchbacks, or whatever you call them. -And as usual, small savings due to minimizing ground attacks and jumps. Overall, 63 frames saved from level 5 fadeout to level 6 fadeout. EDIT: Whoops, the WIP is here
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
@hero of the day: tomorrow, I'll probably do level 7, which should be a cakewalk, since it's just an autoscrolling level. But then I have to do level 8, which I'm definitely dreading trying to TAS. Since I'll be going faster than the will o' the wisp, I'll essentially be TASing blind. I could investigate the level by waiting for the will o' the wisp and going through the level. Maybe draw a rough map of the level too while I'm at it. But this is a TAS, so I want to be precise, and I don't trust my mind's eye or a hand-drawn map to be sufficiently precise. I suppose I could go through the stage and make screenshots of the level sections when they're lit, making sure to disable sprites and BG#3 (which contains the "parchment" piece) when I take screenshots. Then I could try to composite the images into a map of the level. Did you try something like this? Do you have any other suggestions for how to go about TASing this level without losing my sanity?
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1365
Location: Minnesota
zidanax, your run (so far) is beautiful... makes me cry in rage at how well you play this difficult game ;P One possibility I noticed for improvement was for the snow level with all the snow ball throwing pirates (I believe level 6). ~One screen before the boss I notice you take a hit from a shield pirate, but when you take the hit you bounce back to the left... what if you turned your back to the pirate, so you would take back damage, and possibly, bounce to the right? Sorry for being rather vague, if you need more of an explanation let me know so I can elaborate some more.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
jaysmad
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Experienced player (931)
Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 629
Location: Mom's
I think to do so, he would have to be on the right of the pirate... I think...