It wouldn't be acceptable to improve a speedrun of a PC game by deleting the level files beforehand, so I'm not sure why it should be acceptable to improve a FF9 run by effectively making the fmv files unreadable. In other words, I fully support keeping the FMVs in.
Lil_Gecko, do you have any plans for adding subtitles?
It's a gray area. It is something you can do with hardware. Reset buttons are not only allowed, but on emulators they only count for 1 frame, and we don't include any bios startup in the frame count. Pressing left and right at the same time on real hardware requires abusing your controller. Reseting the game while the game is saving, while on an emulator, can only be done on a frame, while you are quite likely to do it off the frame if you try it on real hardware. The main issue I see is simply that the emulator doesn't officially have a function for having the lid open (at least I don't think so).
If that's all it takes, then gamegenie and other such cheating can also be done with hardware, so let's just use some code that skips directly to the end of the game and be done with it. We could probably do this with all games (at least for the older consoles). When every TAS is a few frames long, perfection has been achieved. We can shut down the site as needless.
I think the point is that skipping FMVs requires something equivalent to a crooked-cartridge trick, which is typically not allowed. So the category should really be "no rule breaking". And because that's implied, you can leave it off.
If that's all it takes, then gamegenie and other such cheating can also be done with hardware, so let's just use some code that skips directly to the end of the game and be done with it.
Game Genie et al. are third-party items. The disc tray of a console is not. I'd prefer to see the cutscenes left in, just pointing out what I see as a fallacy.
FMV skipping through use of removing the disc seems like a really bad idea to me. I'd rather you be able to do it through normal gameplay. It's banned on SDA for the reason that it's not something you can achieve without manipulating the hardware (no facetious 'using the controller is manipulating the hardware!!!1' comments please), and it'd be hard to regulate properly similar to crooked cartridge glitches on N64 in that a lot of unpredictable things can happen if you remove access to all or part of the game information during gameplay.
FMV skipping seems okay at first, but where do you draw the line?
Joined: 8/6/2006
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FMV skipping is a valid and oft-used (almost necessary) tactic for getting the EII, so it would seem strange to not allow it for a TAS, but if an "open-disc-tray" option is not emulated, there's obviously not much that can be done.
I see a pretty clear line between things like resetting and opening the tray and things like Game Genie. Resetting and opening the tray are effectively the same action: pressing a button on the console. The whole idea of TASing a game is to see what a game would look like being played with superhuman skill... This theoretical person should not only be able to press buttons on the controller with frame accuracy, but also buttons on the console.
EDIT: The disc tray trick doesn't require the disc to be removed iirc. You just need to pop the tray open until the FMV fails to load, and then close it again.
I was always under the impression that the point of this whole site was to see how fast a game's PROGRAMMING would allow it to be finished. Exploiting hardware bugs is beyond the bounds of what we do here in my opinion.
That said: I cannot wait for an encode of this run, I've been keeping track for ages and I'm so stoked for it...
I was always under the impression that the point of this whole site was to see how fast a game's PROGRAMMING would allow it to be finished. Exploiting hardware bugs is beyond the bounds of what we do here in my opinion.
At the same time, it's the game's programming that decides to just skip the fmvs if it can't load them.
Neither is a crooked cartridge or a scratched game disc. Where do we put a line on hardware abuse?
The primary issue is that for some games (including this one) you need to open the tray to swap out discs in order to beat the game.
There is no denfinitive rule about where the line is drawn. The community simply decides what is allowed and what isn't on a case-by-case basis, and those cases are used to help decide on new ones.
Another good example of this situation is the "one coin rule" for arcade games. You are only allowed "1 coin", which can be 2 coins for 2 players, but not a 2 coins for 1 player. The community would have to probably vote on iffy situations where the second player joins part way into the game.
[quote="Warp"][quote="boct1584"]Game Genie et al. are third-party items. The disc tray of a console is not.[/quote]
Neither is a crooked cartridge or a scratched game disc. Where do we put a line on hardware abuse?[/quote]
I sort of see what you're getting at, although I can't think of any situation where cartridge-tilting or a damaged ROM would be a benefit. The first is a moot point too, though, since cartridge tilting is impossible to emulate. Don't know if there's any reliable way to create a damaged ROM, although the existence of the [b] ROM tag implies there is.
Game Genie et al. are third-party items. The disc tray of a console is not.
Neither is a crooked cartridge or a scratched game disc. Where do we put a line on hardware abuse?
I sort of see what you're getting at, although I can't think of any situation where cartridge-tilting or a damaged ROM would be a benefit. The first is a moot point too, though, since cartridge tilting is impossible to emulate. Don't know if there's any reliable way to create a damaged ROM, although the existence of the ROM tag implies there is.
Not sure why you think cartridge-tilting can't be emulated. Figure out which lines on the cartridge connector fall out first, and how that will change rom read results, and then emulate that. Might be tricky to get exact, but saying impossible without testing? As far as usefulness, tilting at the appropriate time is quite useful in F-ZERO X, and I'm sure there are others.
Game Genie et al. are third-party items. The disc tray of a console is not.
Neither is a crooked cartridge or a scratched game disc. Where do we put a line on hardware abuse?
I sort of see what you're getting at, although I can't think of any situation where cartridge-tilting or a damaged ROM would be a benefit. The first is a moot point too, though, since cartridge tilting is impossible to emulate. Don't know if there's any reliable way to create a damaged ROM, although the existence of the ROM tag implies there is.
Not sure why you think cartridge-tilting can't be emulated. Figure out which lines on the cartridge connector fall out first, and how that will change rom read results, and then emulate that. Might be tricky to get exact, but saying impossible without testing? As far as usefulness, tilting at the appropriate time is quite useful in F-ZERO X, and I'm sure there are others.
The only hardware oriented emulator I've ever seen is bsnes, and I'm not even sure you could do that there.
On Topic: Have to check this out.
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Again, the disc removal trick doesn't work on the emulator, so even if Lil_Gecko wanted to, he or she couldn't do it...
In any case, I hope the encode skips the FMVs.
If it were up to me, TASing would be just about playing the game, not about abusing the hardware. No sending reset signals to the CPU, no cutting power, no ejecting disks in the middle of the game, no modifying RAM with external devices, nothing. The only allowed input is the basic controller buttons and nothing else, the set of allowed buttons being tightly defined on console-by-console basis. (I might even go so far as to dictate that the TAS should not use the game's saving feature unless there's an extremely good reason for that. Abusing hardware is not such a reason.)
Of course it's not up to me, so this is completely moot. I apologize.
(I might even go so far as to dictate that the TAS should not use the game's saving feature unless there's an extremely good reason for that. Abusing hardware is not such a reason.)
Of course it's not up to me, so this is completely moot. I apologize.
Are you suggesting there is something wrong with death-warps or reset-warps?
What about pressing opposing directions?
Are you suggesting there is something wrong with death-warps or reset-warps?
I don't understand what dying in a game has to do with hardware abuse. As for pressing the reset button, if it were up to me, it would not be included in the list of allowed input (with the possible exception that some individual game has it as gimmick, ie you cannot proceed in the game unless you reset; this possible exception would definitely not set a precedent). Resetting is not playing the game.
What about pressing opposing directions?
If the rule is that only certain buttons are allowed as input to the game, then it would be up to discussion whether some combinations of buttons should be disallowed.
I realize you can strictly define what buttons belong on a controller (since that's just a statement of fact), but at the same time, the reset button is effectively just one more form of input a player has in determining the course of his game; it's just not one used as often as the others. It's also a fairly dangerous button to push on accident. I imagine if these two facts weren't true, the reset button could easily have been put on console controllers instead.
I also feel like your approach would potentially have some problems with oddities like the Psycho Mantis fight in MGS (although I understand it's faster to just kill him, so maybe that's a bad example). Point is, while there's nothing arbitrary about your system of determinations, you have made a somewhat arbitrary distinction regarding what buttons are valid ("controller buttons only" is the category you're describing). I'd like to think that permissible input includes anything the developers of the hardware allowed/expected you to do when using said hardware. Just my 2c.
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I'm not at home so I can't watch this, but I'm hoping for an encode. I've been silently following this in the FF9 thread (afraid I'm not familiar enough to have been any help), so it's great to see it submitted. Based on the WIPs I'm sure I'll be voting yes, but I'll wait until I see it of course.
I'd like to think that permissible input includes anything the developers of the hardware allowed/expected you to do when using said hardware. Just my 2c.
Surely that would also mean that you wouldn't allow pressing opposite directions at once like some TASs do (LoZ:ALTTP run for example); that wasn't expected since it isn't generally possible on an actual controller...
Given everything that's been said here... I'm starting to think that FMV skipping should be allowed but obviously since it isn't emulated it's kind of a moot point anyway.
My reasoning is thus: The game itself is still functioning fully, there's nothing being missing or altered from the original programming of the game. A missing disc is an input in much the same way as a hard reset is: an accepted feature of the console and is accounted for in the game.
... so yeah, if it can be emulated I think it should be in future runs. However, whether it will be implemented in future versions of PSXjin is entirely up for debate.
Joined: 2/20/2010
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Location: I'm in space
remeranAuthor wrote:
If hard resets are allowed then i don't see why opening the disc tray wouldn't be allowed.
I agree - I think that if we allow a player to arbitrarily hit the reset button during a TAS, then we should allow the disc tray to be arbitrarily ejected. As far as I'm concerned, while playing, you can arbitrarily rip the game out of the console, drop it in orange juice, and then put it back in (arbitrarily), if that gets you to end sooner.
Oh, play it cool. Play it cool. Here come the space cops.
