Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
you cannot discuss with people who are narrow minded or only looks at one direction. Therefore I really doubt if speedrunners will understand that we in the timeattack community will never care or listen to bad comments, people who take this to seriously like alexpenev wrote, simply don't have a life. So Im affraid it wont happen for many years until a vast majority of the speedrunners community will really understand us. And I hate saying all the time: "us and them" I don't care, I will download anything thats fast, enjoyable and fun to watch. When as I person know the difference and how a certain game was made + that Im open for suggestions, open minded and not narrow minded so I can enjoy even further a certain game.
Not sitting home and watching like a donkey a timeattack game and thinking: "Oh man that was nice but to bad its a timeattack movie and cheating". Cheating according to who? We publish our movies based on OUR RULES, not by speedrunners, nor at sda and certainly not at twin galaxies :)
Maybe someday the attitude will change (I bet Red Scarlet is still pissed off for Jecys Super Metroid run and keep in mind that he never wanted that run to be spred in public and certainly not sended in at sda but somehow someone did send it and he has insurred that this was not his inention to be like this) certainly not for a long time but quite frankly I don't care what speedrunners think of us, because I have received 120% satisfaction at this marvellous and beautiful site. Go Bisqwit Go! ^_^
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Bladegash your comments has always got somehow on my nervs, if you are writing something, dont write A and finish of with B, finish of with ZZZZZ!
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Now, imagine that someone invented a special type of self-guiding golf club. This club would come with a handheld laser pointer, which you would use to define a destination for the ball. The club would then aid your own natural swing to get the result that you wanted.
Now imagine the club being able to slow down time and re-do a swing if you miss it. Welcome to competitive sporting :) That is possibly the best anology yet.
My general idea is, that the key word here is not "competition," as many people seem to think, but "entertainment."
"We observe the behaviour of simple folk, and derive pleasure from their defects."
-Aristotle - Book of Humour
I must have missed the last "civilized discussion." I've never seen one before :)
Agree to disagree? I'm not so sure. It's pretty clear in the community, sdkess, that you hold the stick when it comes to SMB, but being discouraged by Morimoto's video surprises me. The time-attack record for SMB1 has just been taken down to 5 minutes flat using various glitches, where last I saw (and it's been a while), your record for SMB1 is 5:10(ish) without the aid of such glitches. I'd say there's nothing there that suggests "impossible to achieve."
By the same token, if you held the world record for SMB1 in 7:43 for a couple of years, by the time the 5 minute time-attack video was released, I'd imagine you'd look at it and say, "Well, I guess I'm not nearly as solid as I thought I was." Comparing a few seconds makes for an incredible performance when you can justify it with, "The fastest this game can be beaten is 5:00 and I got it in 5:10. I'm such a beefcake I can't fit through the door." That's how I would envision myself, anyway.
To examine the golf analogy, compare yourself to Tiger Woods shooting a 74 on a difficult course and Phil as the computer generated possibility matrix that plots a player's maximum shooting potential at 73.
Or, to take it even further, imagine it as yourself shooting an 80 at Sawgrass and Phil shooting a 77 at Sawgrass on Golden Tee. People may enjoy to watch Phil's performance, but I don't think anyone compares him to Tiger Woods.
Time-attack videos are enjoyable to watch because they perform what is impossible for everyone. Real-time videos are enjoyable because they perform what is impossible for almost everyone. These elite players should have nothing to fear.
If everyone in the 80's was killing SMB1 in 6:00 and the world record was 5:50, and Nintendo released an official, "maximum potential" VHS starring Skip Rogers that proved it could be beaten in under 5:10, not only would the record holder drop everything and shoot for the 5:10, they'd sell a million copies. Then Nintendo would be rich.
But as altruistic as all this sounds, while I'll admit nobody here is actively trying to better humanity through time-attacking, nobody here is trying to ruin gaming.
:)
If everyone in the 80's was killing SMB1 in 6:00 and the world record was 5:50, and Nintendo released an official, "maximum potential" VHS starring Skip Rogers that proved it could be beaten in under 5:10, not only would the record holder drop everything and shoot for the 5:10, they'd sell a million copies. Then Nintendo would be rich.
I can confirm that Skip Rogers has the abilities to achieve this.
People may enjoy to watch Phil's performance, but I don't think anyone compares him to Tiger Woods.
I finished around 15 minutes faster than Red Scarlet's record.
Do you know about this site?
http://www.mrfixitonline.com/fzerohome.asp
I think they have WR charts there, so it might be useful for comparison if you plan on making a save state run.
The official time to beat is 8:42:55 (hours:minutes:seconds). I'm sure Jyzero is up to the task :)
I finished around 15 minutes faster than Red Scarlet's record.
It's clear this was an issue as severe as whoever delivered Morimoto's run deceptively, but consider what he meant:
"I performed a run that proves the game can be beaten at least 15 minutes faster than Red Scarlet's record."
OR
"I performed a run so fast using save states that it ended up being 15 minutes faster than your record."
OR
"Red Scarlet, your video inspired me to perform a time-attack run and I pulled it off 15 minutes faster than your record."
But it came out as awful as Ross Perot saying "You People."
If you fine tooth comb the forums here, I think you'll find Red Scarlet was quite an inspiration for Arc - I believe he has made mention of her a few times.
Arc wrote:
Red Scarlet, helpful outside of my dreams as well, with her comments and videos.
I don't imagine he went to Metroid2002.com with the attitude "HaHa - YOU SUCK WITH TEH RUN!" after this acknowledgement. I'm sure she knew he was a time-attacker and he knew that she knew that he was a time-attacker, and it was just him saying "Hi - guess what I did, Scarlet" type of thing. "Using your route plus save-states, re-records, and slow motion..." He didn't spell it out, but it was a brief message under a simple topic. It would be no different if Walker went to the Twin Galaxies forum after a peak record performance of 35:00 of The Addams Family was recorded and said, "You know - this game can be beaten under 15 minutes- I did it" and didn't think to clarify his message. A simple miscommunication error that wasn't intended to have any catastrophic consequences.
As for the rest of your post, Pete, I'm not too bright and it flew over my head.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Speedruns and (as I like to call them) superplays are two entirely different things. They come from different concepts, one being the desire to record one's skills in a game, like a sport, and another being the solving of a game. This cannot be achieved unless absolute perfection is attained. If we can compare the two with books, then the former would be a great and inspiring novel, and the latter would be a thick, informative book resting in the library of Alexandria.
Just as science theories can be revised, rewritten, and improved upon, superplays can. But it takes a Charles Dickens to write a better book than that inspiring novel I just talked about. Afterall, science cannot figure out an algorithm that will determine what good stories are. There's a difference between the two ways of thinking, the two ways of working, and therefore there are two different results. But in the end, Charles Dickens won't ever be jealous of a science theory, no matter how useful it might be to mankind.
I think this is a pretty accurate analogy, actually. There's always been a fight between creationists and evolutionists, too. Heh.
welcome to the Philosophy of Gaming 101. I've typed hundreds of words debating this topic over the past months so I'm not going to get into it again. As I expected, tool-assisted runs have become more accepted and more importantly, understood over time. By the way, if you go back to when this forum was first created you'll notice that hardly anyone called the nes runs "tool-assisted" or TAS runs, instead they were most called "time attacks" whereas now that term is used with caution. As long as there is competition there will always be legit speed running, and no tool can take that away.
I apologize for not being around to discuss this. I've been pretty busy getting ready for Christmas. :)
Bob Whoops, your comments on analogies make sense. No analogy is perfect, and people often nitpick them too much!
Josh, you make a very good point about the effects of "perfect" runs. Not everyone is affected by them in the same way. I know that some of my fellow speed runners like having an optimal roadmap to follow. It certainly means less wasted effort in pursuing bad ideas. You're the same Josh that is mentioned at Eric Roman's DC site aren't you? He and I used to correspond quite a bit back in the days.
Blechy, I think you summarized my feelings pretty well with your post. In general, when I see an impressive legitimate gaming achievement, it ignites my competitive spirit and makes me want to play the game. I basically get the opposite feeling from watching a tool assisted video. I guess the simplest solution there is to just not watch a tools run. ;) BTW, I feel honored that my video inspired you to purchase Super Monkey Ball 2. It is an amazing game!
Emptyeye, you're right that a big part of the original controversy was over labeling. A lot of people that otherwise wouldn't have been upset about these videos were pretty ruffled about the lack of descriptions on the videos themselves. There are quite a few gamers with moderate viewpoints that have absolutely no issues with tool assisted videos provided that they are labeled as such. I've talked to others who lament the day that re-recording was put into an emulator. I'd count myself among these, but it's just something that we have to accept. The genie is out of the bottle, and there's no putting it back in. No amount of crying is going to change that.
I'll address some of your last points:
I personally feel that if you're speedrunning games primarily for some sort of Internet glory, you should really rethink your motives.
Agreed. In fact, being known for video games isn't always a good thing. When people who work in my building found out that I broke the SMB WR (it was on the front page of the newspaper), I'm 99% positive that I lost points with a girl that I had been eying...
Nor do I buy the argument that timeattackers are somehow less skilled than speedrunners.
Very true. Which activity you participate in does not determine your ability at playing games. Skill at playing games obviously helps in both cases. I do buy the argument that less skill is necessary to make an impressive looking time attack. This is one of the reasons it is appealing. I'd be very surprised if the authors of the best time attacks are not very skilled at real time play as well.
MahaTmA wrote:
My general idea is, that the key word here is not "competition," as many people seem to think, but "entertainment."
Most people that oppose tool assisted runs understand this. Here's a thought: How do you feel about pop music artists (like Ashlee Simpson) lip sync'ing at live events? It's actually a very common practice. They do it so that the performance is entertaining, but does it bother you at all?
-ziplock- wrote:
being discouraged by Morimoto's video surprises me.
Ah, you have hit upon one of the important points. Estimating the theoretical best time for a game is part of my own speed run process. Having a target time to shoot for is necessary. The discouraging thing is that these times are actually being achieved through the use of emulator tools. I know that not everyone feels this way, but it has a spoiling effect for me. Doing NES speed runs now feels like "sloppy seconds" if you take my meaning. Legit runs have the opposite effect most of the time. Seeing a great player achieve something is pretty inspiring.
Hehe, it's funny that you should mention Skip Rogers. I found one of his Nintendo videos on E-Bay recently and purchased it. It should be arriving any day now! This video was ridiculed mercilessly but quite humorously at seanbaby's NES site. I'm looking forward to seeing it.
Deviance wrote:
I've typed hundreds of words debating this topic over the past months so I'm not going to get into it again.
I understand completely. I got really tired of talking about it earlier this year, and in many cases the discussion becomes counter-productive. Besides, even if detractors somehow win the philosophical debate, it isn't going to stop people from making tool assisted runs.
In fact, being known for video games isn't always a good thing. When people who work in my building found out that I broke the SMB WR (it was on the front page of the newspaper), I'm 99% positive that I lost points with a girl that I had been eying...
Sorry but that's just funny. Really moreso because that made it on the front page of a newspaper.
Skill at playing games obviously helps in both cases. I do buy the argument that less skill is necessary to make an impressive looking time attack. This is one of the reasons it is appealing. I'd be very surprised if the authors of the best time attacks are not very skilled at real time play as well.
I won't lie, I'm really not very good at games(though I've been playing them consistently since the age of 4 or 5). I don't make time attacks to counteract this, I view it completely independently: if I was better I'd still make them.
Also, I think the best way to put it is that everybody who is good at games in realtime could make a time attack(with some practice), but not everyone who is good at making a time attack is necessarily good at games.
The difference with the lip syncing comparison is that there is an assumption that they are legitimately singing, and it is their voice we are hearing. We purposely go out of our way to avoid any misconceptions.
I actually owned both of Skip's tapes, along with some of the Game Player's tapes. So very, very funny. I was talking about this in the IRC channel, but on one of the Game Player's tapes(which there has been an auction on ebay for forever), they do a run for a game called Amagon. The ENTIRE time, they use slow motion, which is made obvious by the jerky visuals and sound. And they never once mention it.
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
Lip-synching and time attacking have nothing in common. The only way they could would be if we went on tour offering "live" demonstrations of gameplay but we were actually just playing the pre-recorded runs.
You could compare time attacks to music videos, I suppose, if speed runs are live performances. In that case, I agree lip synching is unethical for live performances but it is a inevitable part of music videos (as is editing).
I'm not attacking anyone here, as it sounds like sdkess7 has mellowed out a little on his "of course you're cheating" position, thankfully.
It's funny. I have a friend, and I have shown him some of the speed runs from this site. I don't pretend that they were done by a person sitting in front of a tv or nything; I flat out tell him: yes, slowdowns were used, and save states were used. Then he proceeds to get upset by something that is humanly impossible. The best example of this was when he was viewing on of the metroid runs. The author killed Kraid with the blaster, shotting him so fast that he was frozen. My friend started yelling about how cheap that was and the like.
My point is, I dont see why people get upset. It's not like anyone is pretending to do something they are not. I have always felt that the purpose of tool-assisted runs was to find the fastest completion of a game allowed by the game its self. The slowness of the human hand is a setback. Besides, if I were to see someone play metroid, on an NES, and beat the game in about 15 minutes, I would be far, far more impressed then with the tool assisted run of 13:31.
People just need to stop putting speed runs and time attacks into the same catagory. Time attacks should be respected for their artistry and visual appeal. Speed runs should be respected for their proof of amazing human accomplishment.
Yes, I realize I havent added anything new to this conversation. But I hope I emphasized some arguments.
Human nature. It could be that many people assume they are truly great at video games and watching tool-assisted runs destroys that for them; hence, they "refuse to believe". Their reaction is sort of like skeptical people who watch magic tricks and persist on proving how it is all a "trick" instead of enjoying themselves.
Joined: 5/4/2004
Posts: 90
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
I think both formats are amazing.
I was 'wow'ed by Red Scarlet's Super Metroid run, and I was 'wow'ed by Teri's speed run on this site.
The former because it was incredibly fast and legitimate, and the latter because it was entertaining as hell and the tricks used surprised me.
