Topic by Dark_Noob

Posted: 12/17/2013 2:01 PM

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Dark_Noob

He/Him

Experienced player (733)

Joined: 8/24/2011
Posts: 319
Location: Brazil

r57shell why don't you work with Dooty on this TAS?you know much about the game,the tricks and others,Dooty is good at TASing and you have a great ideas to optimize the wips of Dooty,is only a advice this game have a great potential I like the actually TAS of SNES version,I know the game is very difficult to work,so my advice is to work with him if Dooty accepts or you or both,both are good at this game mainly your ideas r57shell.

Someone who still enjoy playing fighting games ;)

Posted: 12/17/2013 3:12 PM

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Dooty

Expert player (2584)

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Dark Noob wrote:

r57shell why don't you work with Dooty on this TAS?

We're already working together, we just need a name for our team :)

r57shell wrote:

Stop, I think we need more planning.

Don't worry, we can restart the run as much as we need to. If we find new tricks, better strategies or whatever - it's fine for me. Also, the game is hex friendly (not the boss fights), so it won't be a problem to fix early stages.

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 12/17/2013 10:53 PM

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r57shell

Player (97)

Joined: 12/12/2013
Posts: 376
Location: Russia

Dooty wrote:

Sorry, my bad. Here's the file with the fall through spikes; http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1520150638/Dooty-MauiMallard.gmv

O_o very good! I wanted to mention in start of second level to press A there. But, you already made it. Interesting trick with transformation before long animation :) I don't know where to use spikes trick. I have found one such bug in "the Flying Duckman" level first part. You can fall through floor in start of level. Ok, lets start with such script: http://pastebin.com/UCZhkJZc and save this: http://pastebin.com/eRxLgePV as "donald_tas_notes.lua" and you can write notes right on map. 1) Move cursor at point where to write note 2) Remember coords 3) Add correspondent line in donald_tas_notes.lua Ah! I forgot to mention: DMG table: http://pastebin.com/DkufT2ML As you can see... May be you can beat first boss faster if you'll use combo: bombs & (white or yellow). I know, there will be lags... And, did you try in first level second part in last section between doors to run down , and there jump at spikes -> you will fly up into another spikes and go in door? EDIT: scripts updated, DMG table too. New tricks: 1) Fast kill boss in volcano. First state - ninja hits, after that, all bugs combo 2 times. So, I have changed route to pick 10 red bugs. 2) Red + blue bug kills boss in Muddrake Mayhem. I didn't know that. 3) O_o what I found in Muddrake Mayhem Part 2. It's save much time. You can skip "stopper remove". Just stay left side from rope, and make ninja run right. 4) o__O It's save much more time. Pick red bug near shaman with ninja hit using collision bug. Now you don't need to wait red bugs. That's why I have made directions for wasp in script. Because "door" triggers when enemies all dead. And I had plans to shoot them with white bugs. Meanwhile: http://elektropage.ru/r57shell/Dooty-MauiMallard_.gmv Appended 2 levels. Also, keep in mind: 1) Bound boxes not always collision boxes. 2) Ninja stick collisions - curved. I don't know exact shape. Sometimes faster would be move by X axis away from hook, to hit him. Same with enemies. 3) Invincible timeout - it's just variable, in some states this variable igroned by game, or used for other purpose. For example you can hit ninjas with not null invincible timeout.

Posted: 12/18/2013 1:45 PM

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Dooty

Expert player (2584)

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Wow, just wow! Downloading... but here; Here’s the optimized stage 1, with the new strategy; http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/46179836/Dooty-and-r57shell-MauiMallard.gmv Things you did faster/better than me; 1) Skipped a platform before the rotating thing, nice. 2) The last totem used as platform, sweet. 3) Taking damage after the totem, weird, but faster. 4) The high jump on those pipes, awesome!

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 12/18/2013 4:37 PM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11277
Location: RU

Link to video

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 12/18/2013 8:24 PM

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r57shell

Player (97)

Joined: 12/12/2013
Posts: 376
Location: Russia

http://elektropage.ru/r57shell/Dooty-and-r57shell-MauiMallard_boss.gmv First boss: -39 frames. Need more experiments with ammo. I can describe idea of this tactic. 1) Do not stay close. Otherwise bullets will miss frequently. 2) You can gather 2+2+8 damage with (red+white) bugs combo. But it requires fine tuning. Red bug must hit by 8, and two white bugs must hit by 2. You can see two green splash if they hit. 3) All bullets must HIT! Collision triggers if invincible == 0. Summary: Boss: 90 HP Red+White: once (-1 both ammo) = 12 DMG White+Yellow: 19 (-1 both ammo) = 19*4 = 76 DMG Yellow: once = 2 DMG New observation: Two jumps in row (one right after another) - faster than "jump, walk, jump". Think about it. This can save few frames :). I don't know simple explanation why so.

Posted: 12/19/2013 1:36 PM

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Dooty

Expert player (2584)

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Nice! r57shell – Stage 1, second part, last section -> jump on spikes to reach the door Dooty – Sorry, but I can’t figure out which spikes you’re talking about (yeah, I’m that dumb), do you have a picture? Oh, also; those annotations on screen are too much fun! Can you change your script to show only those? - It would be awesome to add commentaries on our movie on specific spots. The viewer will know when, where and why we did this or that thing on the run. And I'm searching for walls like this;

It's possible to clip diagonally into them.

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 12/19/2013 2:23 PM

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r57shell

Player (97)

Joined: 12/12/2013
Posts: 376
Location: Russia

Dooty wrote:

Sorry, but I can’t figure out which spikes you’re talking about (yeah, I’m that dumb), do you have a picture?

Something like that: [URL=http://imgur.com/yNBSIAN]

[/URL]

Dooty wrote:

Can you change your script to show only those?

Yes, I can, but I don't realy want to show them on map. It is for us. We can do comentary stuff like subtitles, but I don't think it's needed. My script shows many stuff needed. Pink rect - character position. You can easy track when platform ends, also it helps to jump to dynamic platforms. If you don't like that input hides some text, you can move text, or move input position. There is showed almost all what you need even additional combo hits :S. Also it works as prediction system. You can see sprite changes one frame before. But you can do this by save load in same frame %).

Dooty wrote:

And I'm searching for walls like this;

Ok, I'll look into collision detection system.

Posted: 12/19/2013 4:30 PM

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Dooty

Expert player (2584)

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

r57shell wrote:

Dooty wrote:
eccentric commentary on screen
Yes, I can, but I don't realy want to show them on map.

Okay, I understand, but I'll try to convince you some other time :) edit; using the spikes to reach the door is 20 frames slower, but while I was trying;

edit2; The zip down trick saved quite some time on Mojo Mansion; http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1993891919/Dooty-and-r57shell-MauiMallard.gmv I know I said something about restarting the run as much as needed, but this is ridiculous...

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 12/20/2013 5:12 AM

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r57shell

Player (97)

Joined: 12/12/2013
Posts: 376
Location: Russia

Dooty wrote:

using the spikes to reach the door is 20 frames slower, but while I was trying;

20 frames - not bad, but additional white weapon! :) you can use it for boss. I know already about this zip. Here is zip, that I mentioned already before http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/11439789167602156 Also, updated main lua script. Now it's almost awesome. Need to show ropes, and other stuff. Some info about stuff showed: Two mini teal rects - lower - down restriction, upper - up restriction. Both works like point. But lower has some margin. I don't know exact value. I mean, it can push you up. (from underground :) Upper collision used horizontal collision boxes to check. And third (big one): horizontal restriction. It push you backwards. I know two zip methods: 1) For example. Wall from left side, you from right side. Fall in wall so you have a little smaller X than wall has. You must be faced right (backwards from wall). Then, when you have passed additional blocks of "horizontal" collisions, you can press left, and move left through wall. If there is no additional "horizontal collisions" then you can go left as soon as you passed floor height. It will work, if you have luck with "big" box. 2) Zip in water level. As I understand, You not pushed from wall if you stay on floor in many horizontal collision boxes. There is one interesting thing about collisions: speed applied to collision box. I have found one more zip type (1). But, movie will be later.

Posted: 12/20/2013 1:16 PM

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Dooty

Expert player (2584)

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Looks like we're going to beat this game down to "bits"... I'm pretty sure we can skip at least one boss fight on stage 2. (the first dummy fight)

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 12/20/2013 1:24 PM

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r57shell

Player (97)

Joined: 12/12/2013
Posts: 376
Location: Russia

I need to show you new second level strats... :S. It will be in this pos. Wait a little :) EDIT: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/11456675440706897 Here it is. Enjoy :D First zip is very difficult, but even so, I have made it from hook. Second zip not so difficult, but It's cool that you can do wihout loosing any speed. Script little update: now it won't crush in cutscenes (not in game).

Posted: 12/21/2013 12:05 AM

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Dooty

Expert player (2584)

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Man, what was that after the shaman animation? I didn't know you could do that in the air!!! In the first zip, I was thinking about doing it on a platform closer to the floor, but it's already amazing the way you did it! We broke two stages so far; Mojo Mansion and Ninja Training Grounds, so I think we deserve a little break :)

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 12/21/2013 12:32 AM

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r57shell

Player (97)

Joined: 12/12/2013
Posts: 376
Location: Russia

Dooty wrote:

Man, what was that after the shaman animation? I didn't know you could do that in the air!!!

You can't but! I get this idea from your jumping from doors in Mojo Mansion. You didn't notice? that you jump from air :D Same here. Only one frame you stay on ground in air. May be I'm confusing you, but that's true.

Dooty wrote:

In the first zip, I was thinking about doing it on a platform closer to the floor, but it's already amazing the way you did it!

I tried myself too, but it seems to be impossible. If you find way to fall more in wall than I did, then awesome! I can say max X position that I can reach in wall.

Dooty wrote:

We broke two stages so far; Mojo Mansion and Ninja Training Grounds, so I think we deserve a little break :)

Yes we do. I think Mojo Mansion can be improved on tubes and with boss. But, I'm not sure. I looked into bug with 12 DMG from (red+white) combo, and it is very strange. I don't know how exactly it happens, so I can't abuse it more than once for boss.

Posted: 12/21/2013 4:16 AM

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Dooty

Expert player (2584)

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

r57shell wrote:

I get this idea from your jumping from doors in Mojo Mansion.

So, I think this, useless up to now, trick is going to work;

If you jump long enough before you activate the shaman's animation, he will be facing the wrong way. And since the game thinks we're on the ground, I'm pretty sure it will let us jump on that high platform.

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 12/21/2013 7:06 AM

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r57shell

Player (97)

Joined: 12/12/2013
Posts: 376
Location: Russia

Dooty wrote:

If you jump long enough before you activate the shaman's animation, he will be facing the wrong way.

Great! It works. You can hit hook right from jump in air :). As I see, jump in air works only if he stop your transform animation. But I don't want redo this stage again :(

Posted: 12/21/2013 2:08 PM

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Dooty

Expert player (2584)

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

r57shell wrote:

But I don't want redo this stage again :(

Don't worry about it, it will be on the final version of the run :) Also, we're on break, remember?

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 12/21/2013 2:31 PM

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r57shell

Player (97)

Joined: 12/12/2013
Posts: 376
Location: Russia

Ok. Break.

Posted: 12/26/2013 11:02 AM

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Dooty

Expert player (2584)

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

A little update on the progress, I’m breaking my break to put together everything we did so far; 1) The skips on Mojo Mansion; elevator and floor 2) The skips on stage 2 plus the colored ninjas fight 3) A new skip on stage 3 using the double jump trick The WIP will end after the Mud Drakes fight, so we can continue on stage 4 after the New Year. I think I can finish this by tomorrow, so, see you there :)

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 12/26/2013 4:51 PM
(Edited: 12/26/2013 8:17 PM)

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r57shell

Player (97)

Joined: 12/12/2013
Posts: 376
Location: Russia

Ah, I should say it before... but 1) I have found new shortcuts

Realm of Dead 1
Ninja grounds 2
Duckhood 2
Duckhood 1

2) Changed route in Flying Duckman 1 3) Update script: http://pastebin.com/6CQaBLJH 4) Wrote two programs that allows to optimize jumping

X pos set in jump. Download
Jumping between walls with stick. Download

Sorry that It's late. And, I want to mention: 1) Use different ammo to kill enemies, you don't need to keep whole ammo to boss. So, I would like to see more monsters killed. I think, it needed for entertainment purposes. You will need only 20,1,21 (white,red,yellow) for first boss. 2) Do crazy stuff when you not busy. 3) You can jump up backwards and turn forward to have 1+ speed instead of 0.125. So it will be: 0.000, 1.125, 1.250. Instead of: 0.000, 0.125, 0.250. You can use it to jump in end of Mansion 2. 4) Maybe you'll manipulate jump height in Mansion 3? When your hitbox collides with tube hitbox you have -8.000 y speed. So, manipulating with your Y when it happens - gives different jump height. It's how our tube trick works with shooting up. Please wait me a little, before making Ninja Grounds 3. I want to learn how to manipulate moving platforms. Links to programs will be in this post. Sorry. My bad :S EDIT: programs added. EDIT2: script updated. Now you can manipulate platforms in Ninja grounds 2. It depends on frame counter, so game is not hex friendly :) Also, If you didn't see, there is ninja hits boxes added. And, did you try v+hit straw guys in ninja grounds? It's just another way to kill them. Also, I would like to see WIP, because I beware some mistakes in middle section :(.

Posted: 12/26/2013 7:27 PM

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Dooty

Expert player (2584)

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Nothing to be sorry for :) it's not the final version yet, I just want to have something to compare. Also, the double jump is a powerful trick and I want to test something on stage 2!

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 12/26/2013 8:18 PM

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r57shell

Player (97)

Joined: 12/12/2013
Posts: 376
Location: Russia

Dooty wrote:

it's not the final version yet, I just want to have something to compare.

Ok.

Dooty wrote:

Also, the double jump is a powerful trick and I want to test something on stage 2!

Double jump? O_o

Posted: 12/26/2013 9:17 PM

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Dooty

Expert player (2584)

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

r57shell wrote:

Double jump? O_o

Yes, the same trick used after the shaman's animation can be done in the reverse order; as Ninja Maui, jump as soon as your ying yang is about to run out, you will change to Donald in mid air, and you can jump again. I used it in a test of a new route on stage 3; http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1256133027/Dooty-and-r57shell-MauiMallard.gmv and I think we can skip the shaman's animation completely! But did you noticed how close the "Pau!" sign is on stage 2? Well, I wonder if we can reach it with the double jump! edit; just downloaded your script, man it's a monster script! but I can't check the programs; my Windows 8 is blocking it :( (something about a SmartScreen, I don't know what it is) edit2: Yes! The double jump can be used to skip almost the entire first part of stage 2;

The shaman's animation is impossible to skip though...

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.

Posted: 12/27/2013 12:22 AM

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r57shell

Player (97)

Joined: 12/12/2013
Posts: 376
Location: Russia

Great zip in Mansion 2. I didn't try it because I saw vertical collision. But with push from top vertical collision, you can fall through floor. Great!

Dooty wrote:

as Ninja Maui, jump as soon as your ying yang is about to run out, you will change to Donald in mid air, and you can jump again.

Great! I need to check all maps again...

Dooty wrote:

and I think we can skip the shaman's animation completely!

Yes we can. (tested)

Double jump and pass two walls. You need only big rect to pass.

Dooty wrote:

But did you noticed how close the "Pau!" sign is on stage 2?

http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/11591539459929621 And there is my shortcut that I mentioned before

Dooty wrote:

but I can't check the programs; my Windows 8 is blocking it :(

If you trust me, then: More info, Run anyways.

Dooty wrote:

Yes! The double jump can be used to skip almost the entire first part of stage 2;

Argh, a bit too late :D

Posted: 12/27/2013 1:53 AM

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Dooty

Expert player (2584)

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

r57shell wrote:

Dooty wrote:
But did you noticed how close the "Pau!" sign is on stage 2?
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/11591539459929621 And there is my shortcut that I mentioned before Argh, a bit too late :D

No, it's not; it would take me a long time to find that shortcut on part 2. Looks like we're in perfect sync, let's keep on breaking the game!

r57shell wrote:

Dooty wrote:
and I think we can skip the shaman's animation completely!
Yes we can. (tested)

Oh, I was thinking about the shaman on Ninja Training Grounds, but that's great!

I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.