Ambassador, Experienced player (697)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Test run is done and posted: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/10176369876609165 To light up the dungeons, run with this lua script: http://pastebin.com/qtSG6puZ Time was an hour and six minutes. There's quite a bit of room for improvement, maybe enough to get under an hour. Now that I'm done I'm not so sure about the character selection and a few other route choices. In particular, magic ended up being used more than fighting so I'm thinking solo mage may be the way to go. Unlike attacks magic always hits. The hit/miss logic for physical attacks is not straightforward and can't be manipulated through the same RNG as everything else. Basically, I can't make it so I hit every time with a physical attack. Need to look at this more. Magic does add more text and extra selection dialogs over attacking but it's a small price to pay for never missing and more. So what is the best random mob for a fast fight? It's actually not one pathetically weak enemy with 20hp or less but a higher level enemy with 40-50 hp. In that case you cast energy, do some damage and then the enemy moves on to the lava field and dies. When an enemy dies that way you miss a lot of text. You don't get experience, but I don't need it once I hit level 4. Tremor ended up being quite abusable. I'd estimate the chances of killing a room of 7 enemies in one tremor at about 1%. No problem for a TAS. To set this up I use a lua script that knows how to advance the RNG and tells me how many times I need to do that to clear the room. I ended up cutting it close on herbs with only 2 ash left when I finish. If magic gets used even more then it will probably be necessary to refill on that. Ash is used in missile, fire, energy, tremor and gate. So just about every useful spell.
Joined: 6/10/2004
Posts: 21
Looking real forward to watching it, hopefully someone can encode it? And amazing find about giving your last gold also contributing to sacrifice, amazing stuff is still being found. :)
caitsith2
He/Him
Player (47)
Joined: 3/26/2004
Posts: 194
Link to video Encoded. :)
Joined: 6/10/2004
Posts: 21
Thanks for the encoding, actually watched it before you posted, but Im sure others will watch it now. :) Very nice run, cant really think off the top of my head if theres any blaring mistakes? I assume the one missed ranged shot (or were there more than 1, cant remember now), was inavoidable, or needed for further rng abuse? (edit, I see that its actually explained, maybe if I opened my eyes and read...) Maybe submit to be published?
Ambassador, Experienced player (697)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Well, like I said there is a lot of room for improvement. Ended up with more xp than I needed at the deathwarp so time could be saved by cutting down on number of enemies per fight. As far as missed hits I need to look further in to how that works. It seems that in some cases I need to miss a hit before I can hit again; nothing else will help. I suspect I could work out a better strategy with beggars for compassion and sacrifice. Should I buy equipment and give away the remainder or wait until I have the key and no longer need to save gold? Shopping wastes a lot of time and the beggars vary in how chatty they are. Near the end I fought an extra pirate ship near Magincia. This was part of a failed strategy to Gate back there and pick up that ship after finishing avatarhood at the shrine of Valor. Problem is that Gate spell resets ships. It's a little further to sail around from Jhelom but it's not worth fighting another pirate battle to Gate to Magincia. Pirate fight does give valor but I don't need it after getting avatarhood. Another detail is coordinating the other virtues with how many times I need to talk with Flamis and reaper. Maybe not big but something that needs to be done before making a submission-worthy run. I generated a lot of other notes on details like this. The dungeon order isn't coordinated well at all. I changed my mind and tried a few different things while I was making it. The idea is to spend less time cutting through altar rooms. I also think Shame and Despise might be faster coming down from the entrance instead of coming up from the altar. I would get to Shame by exiting Deceit and taking the ship. The limiting spell ingredient was Ash. I could save some of it by using ice instead of fire for a few extra MP. With the extra ash I could use energy more which can save time over Tremor in some battles. When walking around with 2 party members there are always at least 2 enemies in the random battle. Can I cut back on those battles or is it worth it? I was thinking about switching to mage for my next attempt but on further thought there are a lot of problems. Mage's starting gold and xp is so low that a lot of fights are needed to get level 4 and key. If I got tremor then it would come really fast in a dungeon but that means visiting castle Britain and then Moonglow with only moongates for travel. Lots of backtracking and waiting for moons. Or I could go into the dungeons without tremor but have really long fights. Then if I was solo I would need to spend more time recovering MP. So now I'm thinking the paladin/mage teamup may be the way to go after all. Paladin's start is just too good. I might think about solo paladin. Start of Deceit would be tough but once I get MP up I am set. Without a partner I need more time to recover MP but many dialogs could skip character choice and all random battles could be reduced to one enemy. Besides being faster it cuts down on herb usage. Might be worth it. Thought about druid but she has similar problems to mage. Low starting xp and gold. Could make it to Paws for herbs or Trinsic and buy a bow. But then a lot of gold and xp is needed. Picking up paladin and killing or ditching would be a waste of time; why not use it as main? Only advantage of druid is that at level 4 she gets enough MP for tremor without needing orbs. Anyway you can see that there is much more to this game. I won't get back to it for a while and even then I probably want to do another test. Still, I learned a lot from this and was able to give a nice preview. Thanks for the encode.
Ambassador, Experienced player (697)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Planning my next attempt as solo Paladin. Going solo speeds up several dialogs and skips time needed to get Mage. Biggest thing is probably being able to have just one enemy in random battles. I only have one person's MP in the dungeon crawl though and the biggest thing is not having someone who can use Tremor at the start of Deceit where I need to clear 3 rooms of enemies. I have some ideas so I'll see how it works out. Did some more analysis on various timing tradeoffs and algorithms that led to ideas and changes in plans. The details of hit/miss calculations on bow attacks is interesting. Each attack adds a number based on your INT stat to a counter. There is a counter for each enemy slot. When the counter rolls over you miss. With the paladin's starting stats the increment is 33. So every 8th attack misses. The increment goes down as you get more INT. If you max out your INT by feeling up dungeon orbs then the increment is only 1 and you will only miss every 256th attack. Touching one orb brings the rate from 8 to 9.5 and another makes it 11.6. So it's not worth it for this TAS but it is something to think about when you are playing this game normally. (You can max out your stats quickly once you have the key by touching the orb in Hythloth) How encounters work: Every 16 frames the counter at $D9 is updated based on a number from the usual RNG at $36 and the current terrain that is tracked in $46. For each terrain type there is an encounter rate. Haven't checked for all types but for grass it is 8 and on shrubs it is 12. There is an algorithm that computes a random number from 0 to that number-1. That result gets added to $D9. If the calculation overflows then you get a battle. The algorithm that picks how far to advance the encounter counter doesn't just scale down the RNG number. Instead it shifts bits from the high end of the RNG into the low end of the new number. If the result of a shift >= the encounter rate then encounter rate is subtracted. An interesting effect of this is that the addend may actually be greater on lower-encounter terrain for some RNG numbers. It should average out but there is some chance that grassland will get a higher result than shrub. It doesn't matter whether you move or stay still, just the terrain you are on. Now there are often constraints on needing to move to restore MP or bring down a cooldown counter. But in some cases I am just grinding to get more battles for Valor. That is where being able to get battles sooner helps. But I also need to coordinate with picking up chests and getting the right battles. A complicated problem, but at least I know how everything works now. One thing that may be very helpful: stepping on a swamp advances the RNG to decide if you get poisoned or not.
Ambassador, Experienced player (697)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/11268918161853103 Next test run is up and it is five minutes faster! This time I stopped at the Abyss since it would be about the same from that point. There are a lot of changes based on things I found out and random battles are more strongly manipulated. A big change is not getting Mariah. This leads to some creative battle strategy in Deceit. It probably helped that I have been playing strategy RPGs lately. Anyway, the fights worked out fairly well but are still quite a bit slower than tremor. Going solo also means more pacing to save up MP. On the other hand there is a lot of savings from magic and other dialogs, only ordering one person in battles where I trick the enemies into killing themselves and random battles will always have at least two enemies when I have a partner. I tried to add up both sides and it is close enough that I will need to try playing through with Mariah on the new route. One possibility is getting her to die earlier, maybe after Deceit. Other big savings come from changing the route. In the initial grind I concentrate on saving gold for a +1 sword instead of buying several cheaper items. I make an otherwise unneeded stop at Serpent's Hold because the beggar there is by far the fastest. Taking the balloon to Cove instead of the whirlpool saves me from needing to get another ship. I spend a little less time sailing too because the encounter rate is so low. Shame and Despise are both faster from the entrance rather than the altar room, partly because I can get some random battles on the way to the entrance. For random battles I always get just one enemy. I also favor enemies that die in one hit to the bow. The battles also have different setups; either party vs monsters across a field or a scattered setup that suggests an ambush though you still get to go first. I favor the scattered setup because it puts the enemy closer and my shot or spell doesn't need to travel as far. Using the bow instead of magic saves about half a second of dialog and getting the scattered setup also saves half a second or so. Every eight shot of the bow misses so I try to get that out of the way at convenient times. I keep the sword that I start with until Minoc so I can miss with the bow and fall back to that. With 49 encounters needed, this saves a ton of time over the course of the game. To manipulate things it is easiest to walk on swamp. The RNG gets an extra poll to decide if you get poisoned or not, regardless of whether you are already poisoned. I need to run down my hp at the start anyway so I just get poisoned right away. Conveniently, swamps and forests also have the highest encounter rates. After leveling up it gets more difficult because spawning and movement of pirate ships uses the RNG. There is a neat little tweak involving moongates. The moon phase changes every 8 time-steps (one step or the same time if you stand still). If you enter a town or otherwise leave the outer world, that 8-step counter resets. So to move the moon phase along when I want to use the moongate near Yew, I wait until just after a phase change to enter town. Same thing with setting up the shrine of spirituality. Between the extra fights near Serpent's Hold and a few other changes that added random encounters I line up my Valor almost perfectly near the end. That's good, the fights with demons near the shrine of humility are not as efficient as it might seem. You don't need to wait, but it is difficult to get just one of them and you need 22 MP for energy. Even then the fight is not as fast as most of the battles I fight. I have a few more ideas for when I start the final run besides even stronger luck manipulation. For one thing, I noticed that I never use ginseng. It is used in cure spell but even if I need that I start with enough. So next I'll be deciding whether or not to team up with Mariah and then I can start the real run on this game. Edit: Oh yeah, about wind: A counter counts down while in the outer world and when it finishes the wind shifts. Or it doesn't shift if the new direction that gets picked is the same as the old one. The counter also gets reset to a random value. The wind spell sets the direction but the duration counter is random. So I tweaked my luck a little bit to get the wind going my way. It isn't practical to totally avoid using the wind spell but it is definitely possible to cut down how many times you need it and get some useful shifts.
Joined: 1/28/2009
Posts: 6
Location: USA
Great progress, and interesting new finds. Looking forward to the final run!
Ambassador, Experienced player (697)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Just finished a big data dump to the Game Resources page for this game. TAS is done but I want to write up some good commentary before I submit.