Topic by hegyak

Posted: 6/5/2014 7:05 PM

Post subject: F-Zero GX and Action Replay Cheats

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hegyak

Editor

Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris

I wanted to ask, is a TAS allowed to use cheats if the speed running community at large allows it? In particular, I ask because F-Zero Central has and allows cheats to unlock everything in the game. These cheats do NOT allow skill to be replaced. You still have to drive/play well to get on the leaderboards. What I wanted to do is have a TAS Verification movie that uses the Action Replay cheats, unlocks everything all at once and then let better players do their TAS thing using everything cheats gave us.

In addition, there is game content in F-Zero GX which you *cannot unlock* unless you use Action Replay.

http://fzerocentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=280

5. The use of cheat devices such as Action Replay are forbidden on the ladder. If it is suspected that a cheat device has been used then that player will have their times removed from the ladder. Note: An exception is made on this game as Action Replay is the only method available to a majority of players to unlock the Japanese parts. players should use the AR only once when unlocking them.

http://www.fzerocentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=13683

What's the deal with the custom parts in the Japanese version? Yes, there are 15 parts to make custom ships available only in the Japanese version of F-Zero GX and only if you participated in the event where they were given away (they can't be unlocked there normally either). You can, however, use Action Replay to unlock them on your file. Enjoy.

http://www.fzerocentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=279 I am NOT asking for all games to allow cheats. I just want parity with F-Zero Central. Otherwise, we can not count our times against the Max Speed, Space Flying and Snaking WRs. We can compete against Max Speed (Non-Custom) WRs without using cheats to unlock everything.

When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war. The Prince doth arrive he doth please.

Posted: 6/6/2014 6:53 AM

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Brushy

Former player

Joined: 11/13/2005
Posts: 1587

Why not just use the Japanese version, unlock them in a verification movie and then TAS the game?

Posted: 6/6/2014 8:28 AM

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Patashu

He/Him

Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4017

Brushy wrote:

Why not just use the Japanese version, unlock them in a verification movie and then TAS the game?

and only if you participated in the event where they were given away (they can't be unlocked there normally either).

My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu

Posted: 6/6/2014 5:47 PM

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MUGG

Editor, Expert player (2315)

Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3856
Location: Germany

You could always go ahead and do it. You would make a TAS because you wanted to see what the game is going to look like pushed to its limits with the best machine available, you would do it for your own satisfaction and you could always upload your work to Youtube.

Youtube • Livestream • Progress 11th TASer of the Decade 2010-2019 !

Posted: 6/6/2014 7:10 PM

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hegyak

Editor

Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris

I am not good enough to make a full TAS. I am willing to do TAS some tracks for Time Attack but not the whole thing. And I have been asking repeatedly "What do we want to do?" Are we going to do everything (GP, Time Attack and Story) or some of it? I know people wanted to TAS story mode on Very Hard (since it is HARD). I would like to do GP on Master (since it's hard?) and Time Attack should be done The cheat for unlock all Story Missions does NOT work correctly. The Unlock Staff Ghosts, Vehicles, Cups and Beat All Cups codes, do work. You will need to save the game data after using the cheats or you won't have the unlocked items. The Unlock Parts Cheat appears to unlock parts in the store but does not buy them.

When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war. The Prince doth arrive he doth please.

Posted: 6/6/2014 8:12 PM

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Weatherton

Experienced player (601)

Joined: 10/23/2004
Posts: 706

I think you should unlock everything possible without the cheats with a verification movie. Then follow the steps on fzerocentral to get the Japan-exclusive unobtainable parts as a single step and consider that part of the verification movie. The use of action replay should be as minimal as possible; a single step with very clear, well-documented results used to align with the speedrunning community.

Current Project: - Mario Kart 64

Posted: 6/6/2014 9:32 PM

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hegyak

Editor

Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris

Weatherton wrote:

I think you should unlock everything possible without the cheats with a verification movie. Then follow the steps on fzerocentral to get the Japan-exclusive unobtainable parts as a single step and consider that part of the verification movie. The use of action replay should be as minimal as possible; a single step with very clear, well-documented results used to align with the speedrunning community.

I was thinking about doing this, but, there's a problem. I and/or other players need to do ALL of this:

•Unlock the Diamond Cup You have to finish the Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald cup in 1st place in Standard. •Unlock the AX Cup Finish first in Ruby, Sapphire, Emerald, and Diamond cups on Master class. (Holy crow). Or, head to an arcade which as F-Zero AX, put your gamecube memory card into it, and place first in *each* AX course you want to unlock for F-Zero GX. •Unlock the bonus Mute City: Sonic Oval course Place first in the AX cup on any difficulty. •Unlockable Ships The following ships are available after beating a story mode on a specific difficulty setting. All (Normal): Deathborn All (Hard): Spade Chapter 1 (Very Hard): Rainbow Phoenix Chapter 2 (Very Hard): Spark Moon Chapter 3 (Very Hard): Rolling Turtle Chapter 4 (Very Hard): Fat Shark Chapter 5 (Very Hard): Cosmic Dolphin Chapter 6 (Very Hard): Silver Rat Chapter 7 (Very Hard): Pink Spider Chapter 8 (Very Hard): Bunny Flash Chapter 9 (Very Hard): Groovy Taxi •Unlockable Parts Beat Any Cup 6 Times on Standard to get parts (several) Beat Any Cup 6 Times on Novice to get Parts (Several) Brave Eagle, Wonder Worm, Euros -01: Beat the Diamond Cup on Expert. Speedy Dragon,Garnet Ph.,Thunderbolt -V2 Beat the Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald Cups on Expert mode. Megalo Cruiser, Heat Snake, Impulse 220: Complete story chapter 3 on hard mode. Giant Planet, Dark Chaser, Extreme -ZZ: Complete story chapter 4 on hard mode. Holy Spider, Red Rex, Bluster -X: Complete story chapter 5 on hard mode. Space Cancer, Spark Bird, Punisher -4X Complete story chapter 6 on hard mode. Wild Chariot, Combat Cannon, Triangle -GT Complete story chapter 7 on hard mode. Dread Hammer, Crystal Egg, Meteor RR: Complete story chapter 8 on hard mode. Splash Whale, Sonic Soldier, Devifish -RX Complete story chapter 9 on hard mode. Then we can cheat to get those missing parts. My plan is to unlock but not purchase all the staff ghosts for the first three cups then probably do GP runs since Story mission cost money (in game) to be unlocked. I did make a "Use Cheats" Movie file to unlock everything real fast. It syncs. Edit: The cheat movie file. It's short but gets the job done. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/15186493547809605

When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war. The Prince doth arrive he doth please.

Posted: 6/7/2014 12:35 AM

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Weatherton

Experienced player (601)

Joined: 10/23/2004
Posts: 706

I still don't think a cheat device should be used for anything but the unobtainable parts. It sets a bad precedent. How much of that list is actually need for the run you want to do?

Current Project: - Mario Kart 64

Posted: 6/7/2014 4:49 AM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU

If something is otherwise unlockable, the cheat code doesn't simplify the action, or even increases the difficulty, surely that cheat code can be used. Yes, I didn't read the thread.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 6/7/2014 2:27 PM

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hegyak

Editor

Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris

feos wrote:

If something is otherwise unlockable, the cheat code doesn't simplify the action, or even increases the difficulty, surely that cheat code can be used. Yes, I didn't read the thread.

Did I read that as, "Yes, you can cheat in this game so long as it's unlocking stuff" Or am I getting wishful?

When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war. The Prince doth arrive he doth please.

Posted: 6/7/2014 2:31 PM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU

Remember [2558] SNES Super Metroid "GT code, game end glitch" by amaurea, Cpadolf, total in 14:52.88?

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 6/7/2014 3:02 PM

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Eszik

He/Him

Joined: 2/9/2014
Posts: 163

feos wrote:

Remember [2558] SNES Super Metroid "GT code, game end glitch" by amaurea, Cpadolf, total in 14:52.88?

This is using a in game cheat, while we're taking about using Action Replay. It's not the same thing.

I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v

Posted: 6/7/2014 3:02 PM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU

Woops.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 6/7/2014 3:04 PM

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PKFC

Joined: 2/27/2011
Posts: 69
Location: Calgary, Alberta

feos wrote:

Remember [2558] SNES Super Metroid "GT code, game end glitch" by amaurea, Cpadolf, total in 14:52.88?

The difference there is that that was a code left in the game. AR changes the game externally. I'm all for this game and yeah the barrier for entering all the content in many games is too high. But I can't think that it matches well enough with this site. Having said that, "tool-assisted superplay" in which the tool is Action Replay :P

Posted: 6/7/2014 3:05 PM

Quote

feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU

Woops.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 6/7/2014 7:14 PM

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Grincevent

Active player (306)

Joined: 8/21/2012
Posts: 429
Location: France

My opinion: -if the unlockables are legit (clearly intended by the developers...) -if using an action replay is the only remaining way to have access to it, and more importantly, it was accessible at some point without it -if it helps getting better results according to the goal of the movie (aiming for speed, for example) -if the general speedrunning community uses it a lot (that point is not too important to me, but anyway...) Then I'm for it being allowed. But with all that in mind, I think the best would be to have an "official and legit and verified" save from where all the TASes can start. I don't know if it is hard to verify if the AR code doesn't change anything it shouldn't and if the creation of the save will be easy (could take time if we only want to use the action replay for the special unlocks, and it involves a long verification movie)... Otherwise, if somebody wants to try some memory corruption to unlock this stuff... :P

Posted: 6/7/2014 9:08 PM

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Samsara

She/They

Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2123)

Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California

Hey, if we can have a thousand different acceptable categories for Super Metroid (including categories with virtually no differences between them) just because the community accepts it, then why shouldn't this be allowed under that same clause?

TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | Cohost

warmCabin wrote:

You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.

Posted: 6/7/2014 10:36 PM

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Weatherton

Experienced player (601)

Joined: 10/23/2004
Posts: 706

But we currently have zero "uses a cheating device" category runs on the site. That's the sensitive issue here and why it should be addressed carefully.

Current Project: - Mario Kart 64

Posted: 6/7/2014 11:11 PM

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Samsara

She/They

Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2123)

Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California

It's just for the verification movie, isn't it? The verification movie unlocks everything necessary and a submitted run wouldn't actually have any cheats attached to it, it'd just start with the SRAM generated from the cheated verification movie. Or am I mistaken in all of this? I honestly think as long as the run itself remains Action Replay-free, then a verification movie should be allowed to use cheats to unlock anything that can be obtained normally: New Game Plus, different game modes, custom parts in this game or whatever. It would save time and hassle on runs that require hours-long verifications (such as the RE4 Mercenaries run that seems to be a verification nightmare). But again, if AR codes leak into the run itself, then that shouldn't be allowed.

TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | Cohost

warmCabin wrote:

You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.

Posted: 6/9/2014 10:07 AM

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andypanther

Any

Former player

Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 1095
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

If there's no other way, cheats should be used to unlock stuff. I don't see a problem in this case.

Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.

Posted: 6/10/2014 4:36 AM

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Master_of_Puppets

Joined: 10/31/2006
Posts: 134

I dont see a problem here, it's not like there is tons of game out there with "legit" unlockable by AR only stuff. As long as step-by-step are included, so anybody can prove the run is legit.

Posted: 6/11/2014 1:33 PM

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hegyak

Editor

Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris

To clarifiy: I want to use Action Replay Cheats to unlock everything in F-Zero GX. After everything is unlocked and a save on the memory card is made, cheats are disabled and a real TAS is made. Cheats are ONLY used on the verification movie and will NOT and will NEVER be used on the submission movie. To compare to F-Zero Central's Rules: Cheats are allowed, so long as they are used to unlock everything only. No infinite boost/energy or other cheats allowed on the World Record tables or ladder.

When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war. The Prince doth arrive he doth please.

Posted: 6/11/2014 1:47 PM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU

There's a little problem with cheats. It's possible to patch some bytes that would affect gameplay in a subtle way, leading to unfair advantages. We all know what corrupted SRAM can do.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 6/11/2014 2:13 PM

Quote

hegyak

Editor

Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris

feos wrote:

There's a little problem with cheats. It's possible to patch some bytes that would affect gameplay in a subtle way, leading to unfair advantages. We all know what corrupted SRAM can do.

That would be very interesting to see happen, though not for a "normal" TAS. I used the cheats off of F-Zero Central's site and I would assume they don't allow something that makes the "cheating" player's game have any kind of advantage/disadvantage. I don't even know how you would corrupt F-Zero GX's saves and make the game go crazy weird. It would be one heck of an impressive trick to say the least.

When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war. The Prince doth arrive he doth please.

Posted: 6/11/2014 2:20 PM

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Scepheo

Player (144)

Joined: 7/16/2009
Posts: 686

feos wrote:

There's a little problem with cheats. It's possible to patch some bytes that would affect gameplay in a subtle way, leading to unfair advantages. We all know what corrupted SRAM can do.

True, but the alternative is not using the best parts in the game. And it's not like the verification "movie" (and with that the cheat(s)) will be unavailable to other people: there's plenty of documentation on AR for anyone who cares to verify what bytes are being changed. Also, just like with a regular verification movie, the intent is for other people to play/do it themselves, so they can simply see for themselves that the cheats necessary to make the movie sync are exactly those used by the F-Zero community, and nothing more. And after all, we're using cheats to put us on the same level as the RTA runners, so what the cheats do doesn't actually matter. All that matters is that we use the same ones.