Ok I have just finished Bowser's Star World. I won't be putting up a WIP just because I only have two levels left and I'll have this movie submitted by the weekend. It's more exciting to see a run like this all at once, I think. But I'm glad there is interest! More than I can say for my other run so far...
I do have something I'll post. Here is a nice segment - but unfortunately, it's looking like I won't be able to use it in the run. Unless someone knows a way to trick the game into thinking that, while flying, you've gotten some footing without actually having to land or stop flight, which will cause the screen to scroll up to Mario's position. Or if anyone knows any other random way to make the screen scroll up to me, that would be great. There's no such thing as a stupid idea, so feel free to give suggestions.
The problem is that although I can fly above the screen, there is a limit to how far above the screen Mario can go. I can't pass that lava mountain no matter how high I fly with the screen that low. If I can get past that lava, the rest of the level would be a breeze, and a lot of time would be saved.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
That's a great segment, and I'm really looking forward to seeing this finished. I don't know of anything that can help you I'm afraid, but very nice work!
Nice segment. Wouldn't it be possible to use the same trick flagitious and VIPer7 use in the Mario World in 10:36 when they land on the wall after defeating big boo? It will probably mean you lose your flying but maybe you can do something else and still survive, I don't remember how the level look. Worth testing.[/b][/quote]
Here is how the level looks when you can see it.
I tried "landing" on the upper left wall there, and you can do it, but you lose your flying. I also tried walljumping off of it, which is also possible, but in that case, you don't gain footing as far as the game is concerned, so the screen still doesn't move (and I lose my flying).
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Oh, I have most definitely been beaten and put to shame if you got that far that fast. Maybe I'm just too much of a perfectionist. =P
I don't know how the programming for the game's camera works, but for example in Donut 1 it pans up when you fly higher at the beginning, but not later, as Flagitious demonstrated - so maybe if you fly close enough to the lava at one point the game will think you're on the platform?
maybe if you fly close enough to the lava at one point the game will think you're on the platform?
I hadn't thought of this, so I went and tried it out.
I flew as high as I could keep Mario visible on the screen on the lava hill, and went frame-by-frame to try and barely touch the lava, but all I could do was either catch more wind, or die in the lava. Bummer. I also tried somehow getting footing from the Blarggs (goofy red RAAOAOARR guys), but it didn't work, and all of them are at the bottom anyway.
I also messed around with L & R buttons, since they are camera related, but no luck.
GWing_02 wrote:
Oh, I have most definitely been beaten and put to shame if you got that far that fast. Maybe I'm just too much of a perfectionist. =P
Well I had surgery on my foot so this has been my agenda for about six days straight now :)
One level left!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
http://tasvideos.org/797S.html
Enjoy!
Edit: Changed link to be correct. Double submission was fixed by Bisqwit and I forgot to change the number here as well.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
First of all, thanks to everyone who has given feedback on this run.
Secondly, the run is improvable. (Just about every run here is probably improvable at least a little bit) I wasn't aware of the specifics of flying, which sucks because I read a lot of the forums about SMW before starting this run, yet I didn't check the Mario tricks page. I wasn't aware that SMW was added to it. D'oh!
That being said, I have some very specific questions about flying, and if anyone could answer them, it would be appreciated very much. Please don't point me to the SMW forum or the trick page, as I've read those completely now.
Assume I'm facing right.
I understand that releasing -> on the correct frame will give you maximum flying speed. I'm wondering what actions keep / detract from this maximum speed:
1) How long can I wait before pressing <- without losing speed? In other words, will holding Y and floating without pressing a direction cause my forward velocity to decrease, and if so, how quickly?
2) Will holding <- from the peak of my flight slow my speed? In other words, will holding Y and <- to float down VERY slowly also slow down my forward velocity?
3) How long can I dive without losing forward speed?
4) Does using the fast-dive glitch (pressing -> every other frame for 10 frames) slow my forward velocity?
5) Is there anything else that I should know about fast flying or flying in general?
EDIT: Went and found the answers to these questions myself by testing the game, so don't worry about replying.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I have watched my own run quite a few times and have made a list of possible improvements I'd like to implement in the next version.
General Improvements
I'd like to get 99 stars, if possible. Some levels give 14 stars at the goal post. If I can get this to work on five levels, then I can get 29 stars on the goal post in Water Star Road. 14 * 5 + 29 = 99.
I will try to get more coins / score in some spots.
Eliminate flying delays.
Add new glitch that is talked about earlier in this forum, once it is made public.
Map Route
It may be possible to take a different route to finish the game faster, but this is untested. The route in question is:
Misty Isle 1
Misty Isle 2
Misty Isle 3
Misty Isle 4
Iggy's Castle
Salty Isle
Desert World 1
Desert World 2 (secret exit)
Desert Secret (to get shell in reserve box)
Desert Castle (secret exit)
Desert Star World
And from here, following the old route.
If this route actually is faster, it would be kind of a bummer because Misty Star Road would be skipped, and it has some of the best stunts in the run. Also there would be new levels to optimize.
Misty Isle 1
Gorling & Fabian's first WIP starts the first level one frame earlier. Find out how this was done.
Possible frames gained: 1Misty Isle 2
Make sure that after sliding, right is pushed at first possible frame after koopa is killed.
I believe it's possible to get 14 stars at this goal post.
Possible frames gained: 1Misty Isle 3
Nothing I could spot at this point.
Misty Isle 4
Try to fly by last koopa and X button him, since stomping is not an option. Maybe with pirhana also, if this doesn't cause any slowdown that is.
#1 Misty Castle
Although I doubt it, see if regular flying is possible up to the gate. Also, try regular flying, landing, doing the jump-skip, and then spin-jump flying (although I don't think this works either).
If possible without slowdown, grab, kick, and re-grab the key.
Compare second room to G&F's run - he never descends during his spin-flight. Find out if this is faster.
Possible frames gained: 3~5Misty Star World
Run up first triangle later to expose a koopa, which can be killed later.
Get starman to bounce one more time by hitting the block at a different frame possibly. Possibly skip that starman and get the next one quickly.
Grab ice blocks after killing Chuck near the Banzai Bills.
Desert Star World
What does everyone think about flying over the whole level? Would this be overall better than stomping enemies and the brick lag? If not, try to stomp more enemies on the tops of the sand hills in the beginning.
Reduce lag in brick portion somehow. Also use lag to advantage. Make sure six actual frames pass before hitting left again.
Possible frames gained: 60~90Water Star World
Try skipping second-to-last star to make it possible to kill every fish, including the goofy sleeping one.
Get 29 stars here if possible to get 99 overall.
Kick P-switch to pipe only to regrab just before entering.
Crystal Star World
Decide whether killing the enemies here is worth the large amount of lag that is caused.
Possible frames gained: 30~60Sky Star World
Hit 2 more koopas in the first half of the level.
Try hitting the koopas just before the hidden coin blocks. (With X-spin if stomping is not possible)
See if it's possible to hit the second flying koopa in the second half of the level.
Ice Star World
See if getting a green shell and kicking it at the other koopas at the beginning will reduce lag.
See if getting a red shell and flying by the chucks, dropping it and regrabbing it on each one, will reduce lag.
Possible frames gained: 50~250Pipe Star World
Jumping out of the second pipe and flying may be faster than running off of it and flying.
Instead of flying up into a pipe, try landing and jumping up into it with flight, and flying after exiting the pipe.
Make sure that the key glitch cannot be done faster.
See if letting go of Y during second to last pipe reduces the lag.
Possible frames gained: ~10Bowser's Star World
So close to flying through the whole level. :(
In VIPer7's 96 exit run, he spin-jump-flies off the skull raft, although I tried and couldn't get it to work. Try harder to see if flying off of platform after pipes is possible. If not, see if jumping off skull raft starting from farther left on the raft is possible earlier.
Possible frames gained: ~2 (~3000 if flying is possible)BackDoor Star World
Try making it past more of the beginning spikes by flying, dropping and regrabbing key, and flying under them. Flight could possibly continue from there also.
A long shot, but try flying under the pathway to see if it's possible to go through the spiked columns.
Possible frames gained: 50~400Bowser's Back Door
Fly under the third jumping bowser statue if no delay is caused.
Do more at very beginning of Bowser battle than fly once and get hit.
Total possible improvements:
Fast flying correction: 60~120
New glitch: 60~240? (depending on if glitch applies to flying or not)
Level improvements: 207~817
Flying through BSW: ~3000
Total possible improvements: 327~1177 frames, which is 5.45~19.6 seconds.
If flying through BSW is possible, add about 50 seconds of improvement to that total.
Although I won't be working on this at the pace that I did the first run (my foot has mostly healed and I can return to the outside world finally), I'm still very interested in it.
Any questions, comments, suggestions, criticisms, compliments, etc. are welcome.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I'd like to discuss route optimization (and anything else) for a full (120 exit?) run of SDW:TLC, do you guys think I should start a new topic or is this one good enough? I redid the first two levels, but I won't do this very fast so I encourage someone else to pick up the challenge too. Some friendly competition never hurts :)
Wow, a platform timeattack that would be longer than some of the RPGs here. This would be a daunting task.
I'd be around to help with ideas. You've got 15 levels to watch anyways :)
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
As long as you're just discussing general routes you can keep it in this thread but i suggest that as soon as you release your first WIP you do that in a separate thread so that people don't confuse one movie with the other.
Also, i really encourage you to do this and I bet that so does everyone else.
Ok so I've been productive tonight and finished another three levels, Misty Isle 1-4 and 4b are done now. I'll have to redo the second part of Misty Isle 4 though, since I didn't do a good job of flying and ended up like 50 frames slower than jxq's version from grabbing the feather to touching the star. I hate flying already. I could easily see me losing interest in this very quickly now that I have that damn cape.
So anyway, next up is castle #1. I'm doing the secret exit first of course but I'm not sure if I should do one or both exits in Misty Star World after that or if I should save all Star Worlds for later or whatever. Brainstorm away!
I hate flying already. I could easily see me losing interest in this very quickly now that I have that damn cape.
I hear you! As far as cape stuff goes, I'd suggest to check out the Mario Tricks Page to make sure you're up to speed with the goofy physics of flying. However, the jist of it that when taking off, the frame that you let go of -> (assuming that you are facing to the right) will determine your flying speed. One out of every five frames is your best frame, so you must test each of them and fly to a common point to see which one gets you there the fastest, using the frame counter. Things like pulling back to float slowly or bopping enemies will not slow your forward movement down, but diving forward has the potential to do so, since you have to press -> to dive. So, make sure that when diving, you hold -> for a multiple of five frames. This works because the one-out-of-five frame rule is cyclic, and so you are able to keep speed this way.
The best way to see what I mean is to fly at the beginning of some level, save the state, advance one frame with -> pressed, save in a different state, advance another with -> pressed, save a third...make five states in this way, and then fly to the end of the level with each of them. The difference in completion time is very surprising - nearly two seconds of difference between the best and worst frames in an average sized level.
Fabian wrote:
I'm not sure if I should do one or both exits in Misty Star World after that or if I should save all Star Worlds for later or whatever. Brainstorm away!
In VIPer7's SMW96 run, he did all the Star Worlds at once. This cut down on the number of star-teleportations he had to take on the world map. I'd suggest the same type of route here, although it isn't quite the same, since he had the star at the end of the Special Zone to put him back at Yoshi's house. Also, doing Misty Star World twice in a row will probably get very boring. Saving the Star Worlds for later lets you used the forced movement of completing them to play them in order for the regular exits, and then again for the secret exits.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Thanks for directing my attention to the trick page, it's been a while since I was there and some new stuff for SMW had been added since.
So about the Star Worlds, unless I'm overlooking something (and considering how complex the game is, I most likely am), the best way to tackle them would be to:
1. Finish Bowser Castle c (super secret exit)
2. Take the Backdoor Star to Star World
3. Do all normal exits, ending up on Backdoor Star World again
4. Do all secret exits in reverse order, ending at Secret Star World
5. Go to ...? and take on Big Boo's world.
This Star World route should require fewer worldmap movements than any alternative, right? It would also mean I don't have to worry about Star Worlds until the end of this project (as if I'll ever actually get there, heh), which is nice since you've already played through most of them, and I think most of them are boring.
I'll go redo Misty Isle 4 now. Since there have been quite a few SMW speedruns made now, it's difficult to be original. I try very hard to not to do everything the exact same way we all have seen a thousand times already, choosing different routes whenever I can. For example in this level, I fell down towards the feather, instead of jumping up to it like you and Gorling did, but this caused a very long initial elevation (sorry if that's the wrong word) before I could control Mario again. I'll try to do it more like you did now, even though I don't like it.
Edit: Apparently that wasn't the problem, I couldn't fing a way to avoid the initial lift. I might try again tomorrow. Flying sucks.
The number of optimizations some levels are going to need is going to be insane. There is no way a perfect run will be made very soon on this run... no way.
Fabian:
As far as route is concerned i think that the one you suggested is the best (i.e. take all the star worlds in the end and then go for big boo).
Be sure that you clear the secret exit of any castle the first thing you do so that no forced movements would be in excess.
Also, flying in castle #4 is prolly going to be a bitch
So about the Star Worlds...
1. Finish Bowser Castle c (super secret exit)
2. Take the Backdoor Star to Star World
This unfortunately isn't possible. You can't access the BackDoor star unless you warp to it via that same star because the rest of the map isn't connected to it. You'll have to warp from Bowser's star, but everything else should work.
What I've noticed about this overhead map is that most worlds have two distinct paths to take. It may end up being faster to go through the game, completing only one of the paths (and its secrets), then doing the Star World and Big Boo's World, then warping back via Misty Isle Star and going through the second path of the game. This way would also let you end up at Bowser's World at the end of the run, so it wouldn't be a far walk to complete the game.
Gorling wrote:
Also, flying in castle #4 is prolly going to be a bitch
Yeah and about thirty other levels...yikes!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
In fact, if Cisco starts getting boring I might even work on this one during class.
I'd imagine it's gotta be done in several run-throughs of the game, figuring out what needs to be optimized after each runthrough. I'd imagine jxq's awesome key glitch can be used several times (the desert pyramid comes to mind).
jxq2000 wrote:
This unfortunately isn't possible. You can't access the BackDoor star unless you warp to it via that same star because the rest of the map isn't connected to it.
That's not true. Bowser's castle has 3 exits. One unlocks Big Boo's world, one unlocks the backdoor star warp, and one leads to Bowser.
We need to plan an overworld route first and then start doing individual level runs (need the overworld route so items are consistent), then we can ask VIPer7 how he hexeditted all together.
Also -- another alternative to this run is to do the shortest route possible WITHOUT taking star road (or maybe the warp that skips all of crystal and ice worlds). It would show off more of this game and stir up more interest before we try to cram a 100% exit game down their throats, which frankly, could end up being very, very boring at parts. It's a slow game. =P
if Cisco starts getting boring I might even work on this one during class.
Heh, "if"...
GWing_02 wrote:
That's not true. Bowser's castle has 3 exits. One unlocks Big Boo's world, one unlocks the backdoor star warp, and one leads to Bowser.
Do you mean Bowser's Star Warp? Because I can't find a way to walk from where Mario is to the Back Door without using the Star Warps.
Here's another thought - if Big Boo's world is completed with some of the game left, then maybe it's possible to use the special block that puts a key in the select-box to significantly shorten up some of the secret exits (like the Desert Pyramid, for example). Big Boo's place could be visited near any star road without too much delay. Although this may end up skipping some of the cooler parts of the game.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
That's a very interesting thought jxq. However I don't think I'll use it, I just don't like the thought of it. If you went for pure speed it would probably be very helpful though.
No more progress yet. I might try later.
Actually that might be a good idea, jxq... I'll look into where it'll really really save time, though in some places (like many parts of Desert pyramid) there's always the chance that you won't be able to release the key from its box without getting it stuck in a ceiling.
Oh, one thing... do we have to technically enter and exit each Top Secret Area to "complete" them besides the one hidden in Water TSA?
And I stand corrected about Bowser's various star warps. =P
I tried "landing" on the upper left wall there, and you can do it, but you lose your flying. I also tried walljumping off of it, which is also possible, but in that case, you don't gain footing as far as the game is concerned, so the screen still doesn't move (and I lose my flying).
Do you mean Bowser's Star Warp? Because I can't find a way to walk from where Mario is to the Back Door without using the Star Warps.
Here's another thought - if Big Boo's world is completed with some of the game left, then maybe it's possible to use the special block that puts a key in the select-box to significantly shorten up some of the secret exits (like the Desert Pyramid, for example). Big Boo's place could be visited near any star road without too much delay. Although this may end up skipping some of the cooler parts of the game.
