mklip2001
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Hi, I only just discovered this thread. Way to go, Bisqwit, making a bot to play this game! I definitely wasted too much time on this game as a kid, and I look forward to the WIP.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
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New WIP! http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1577783193/lunarball.fcm 40 stages completed, going at 41st. ___________
mklip2001
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Very nice! By the way, what the heck happened with stage 40? Why did the balls disappear in that spot? Also, you got a Perfect on that stage with the single ball (I think it's stage 27). It's quite impressive, but is it faster to beat that stage in 2 shots to avoid getting the Perfect bonus?
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
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mklip2001 wrote:
Very nice! By the way, what the heck happened with stage 40? Why did the balls disappear in that spot?
That's what I would like to know, too! Somehow, the game generated spontaneously a few black holes to the board. EDIT 2010-02-02: Oh, I now watched it with sounds. Apparently the music was affected too!
mklip2001 wrote:
Also, you got a Perfect on that stage with the single ball (I think it's stage 27). It's quite impressive, but is it faster to beat that stage in 2 shots to avoid getting the Perfect bonus?
It has been almost two years since that stage was played, but I remember that this was indeed the solution the bot ended up with ― and it did test shooting a dummy shot first. It did offer a number of ways of pocketing a few balls instead of all of them, but I think I was quite happy of keeping this shot in the movie (it's not that common a sight, don't you think!) instead of exploring a way to pocket balls in more rounds.
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My only guess is that the bug on stage 40 could have something to do with the sprite limit per line? Since it has all the balls lined up horizontally, plus all those obstacles added in. Possibly a lag factor involved in the checks.
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The sprite limit should just be a matter of drawing; it doesn't generally affect game calculations (i.e. you can interact with sprites that aren't drawn).
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NrgSpoon wrote:
My only guess is that the bug on stage 40 could have something to do with the sprite limit per line? Since it has all the balls lined up horizontally, plus all those obstacles added in. Possibly a lag factor involved in the checks.
Noting the fact that the music was also affected, and the moment it was, I think it was something like that the number of collisions was too high and it overflowed some buffer. This demands investigation! Dejavu. Hmmm… http://bisqwit.iki.fi/jutut/lunarball.lst -- disassembly http://bisqwit.iki.fi/jutut/lunarball.map -- ram map If someone wants to do research.
Post subject: Idea: Lunar Ball - Zero Friction mode
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Lunar Ball has this interesting feature, that on the configuration screen, its friction setting can be arbitrarily selected from integer values 0 to 255. The default value is 32. The value 0 in particular is very interesting: It literally means "no friction whatsoever". [img_right]http://bisqwit.iki.fi/kala/snap/newtoncradle.gif[/img_right] A pool game played in completely frictionless setup is a very different game from a normal pool game. In a frictionless game, it is more than possible, that a careless shot makes the game completely unwinnable. Indeed, it is easy to demonstrate such a shot that will leave the game into an infinite loop, much resembling the effect that happens in the popular gadget, "Newton's cradle". In such a loop, there is no choice but to reset the console, terminating the game. From a computer player's viewpoint, this means that the searching space for valid moves is drastically smaller than it is for a regular game: most shots produce either an infinite loop, or they result in the eventual demise of the cue ball. Due to the law of conservation of energy, so called "preparation shots" simply cannot be done, either. This also means that unless you "suicide" once in a while (intentionally pocket the cue ball), you get a "PERFECT" message in all boards, and that the scores skyrocket. Also, the timeout for shots should be set considerably longer than in a default-friction game, because the balls can be gliding for a long time before they eventually find a pocket. The question is... Would this be interesting to see?
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I think it'd be worth trying a few levels frictionless and seeing what they look like, certainly. It sounds like your bot would have to spend less time on move decision and more time on move simulation, right? That is, the search space is smaller, but each option requires longer to judge if it is acceptable. I'm surprised that the game allows for unending shots but has no facility to cancel gameplay except for resetting the console.
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Derakon wrote:
It sounds like your bot would have to spend less time on move decision and more time on move simulation, right? That is, the search space is smaller, but each option requires longer to judge if it is acceptable.
Yes. In any case, almost all time goes to the simulation regardless; the move decision part is just a for loop that takes a dozen microseconds at most.
mklip2001
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I'd be curious about what a few levels look like without friction, but I don't actually think it would be more entertaining for a lot of stages. I dunno... I think it would feel too mathmatical, whereas the game with friction has some semblance of being real pool played by an expert. I certainly wouldn't give up the current WIP for a frictionless run.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
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You can also change stage at the title screen, so, uh, this might go against some intention of the TAS, but what if you did most of the boards with normal friction, reset, did the next chunk of boards with no friction, reset, did the last few with higher friction, or some such thing? The change in game mechanic might make for a refreshed-feel to watching the movie. "Ah this is different, hmm!"
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Twisted Eye wrote:
You can also change stage at the title screen, so, uh, this might go against some intention of the TAS, but what if you did most of the boards with normal friction, reset, did the next chunk of boards with no friction, reset, did the last few with higher friction, or some such thing? The change in game mechanic might make for a refreshed-feel to watching the movie. "Ah this is different, hmm!"
The problem is arbitrariness. mkclip: I'm not planning to abort the current movie. It's going in stage 42 now btw. Estimate it gets to #43 within some 5 or 6 hours.
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Oops, I'm late. I think it'd be cool to see frictionless, max-points run. Something different than this. Maybe after this is done. If this is ever finished, that is. (I personally don't see why not, and it's always possible a script could be written that creatively speeds up the game the slower the balls get.)
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