Posted: 5/3/2015 5:09 PM
Post subject: Can't TASer makes TAS of "binding of isaac"?
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ebebeby
Joined: 5/3/2015
Posts: 2
I don't know binding of isaac very well. I heard that this game has many (random) variable. I know that TAS can converts random variables to fix variables. Than, "ISAAC TAS don't exist yet" means just TASer do not having interest to this game?? Or can't make a TAS because of technically problem? Thank you for reply.
Posted: 5/3/2015 7:51 PM
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Warp
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
The original game is a Flash game. AFAIK those aren't TASable at this point.
Posted: 5/3/2015 10:18 PM
Post subject: Re: Can't TASer makes TAS of "binding of isaac"?
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
ebebeby wrote:
I know that TAS can converts random variables to fix variables.
To be clear, TASes don't change random variables into fixed ones. However, they are (sometimes) able to get the random number generator to produce favorable numbers. Depending on exactly how Binding of Isaac works, it could potentially take a long time to generate a good level or set of levels. Or perhaps it'd be trivial; it's hard to know without someone taking the game apart to see how it works. But yeah, as far as I'm aware nobody's able to make submittable TASes for Flash games.
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Posted: 5/4/2015 1:50 AM
Post subject: Thanks, I get to know that 'TAS can not work in Flash'
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ebebeby
Joined: 5/3/2015
Posts: 2
I don't know flash algorithm. Many games of whole worlds may worked by something... choice variables to random tables, and I surprised to TAS can't apply in flash. I know flash game the "Kantai(Ship) Collection" by Japenise. Although it is a online game, but this game just like RPG, Attack or Defense value is decided from random variables. (example : Something mob has a Defense=10, and random variable interval is 0.7*[Defense]~1.3*[Defense]) This means "Random number decided in certain time". So, Flash developer make games by "Code", but We(TASer?) do not control these random number?? If I mistaken understanding, TASing of ISAAC game just has time trouble(so looooong), can make it if TASer have a many time? Frankly, I get to know TAS can not make in Flash, but don't understand impossibility of TAS based Flash. Thank you! p.s. I don't know English very well (*.*) Sorry for wrong grammar or expression;
Posted: 5/4/2015 2:39 AM
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Patashu
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Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4044
There's no fundamental reason why Binding of Isaac isn't TASable. However, the tool for TASing Windows games, called Hourglass, is not compatible with Flash games at this point in time.
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Posted: 5/4/2015 11:44 AM
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Warp
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Location: Finland
If it would ever happen, and it becomes possible, I would prefer a TAS of the remake (ie. "Rebirth") rather than the original.
Posted: 5/4/2015 5:22 PM
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xy2_
Editor, Experienced player (854)
Joined: 5/2/2015
Posts: 696
Location: France
Arcade TASer of 2016
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15178 This may work to TAS flash games. I disagree hovewer with the fact that Rebirth may be more interesting to tas: pick eden, get brimstone+tammy's head start, poly item room, optimise movement, done. A run of the original may be about the same in terms of entertainement, but there are two main runs floating around the web: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4-0n9BWYwM First run, uses blue baby, knife poly and manipulates rooms a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT5nRqHm9Ng Second run, gets epic fetus, habit, wafer and we need to go deeper (skip rooms), done.
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Posted: 5/5/2015 2:49 PM
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Warp
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Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
xy2_ wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4-0n9BWYwM First run, uses blue baby, knife poly and manipulates rooms a lot.
That knife looks like a real gamebreaker.
Posted: 5/5/2015 3:37 PM
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xy2_
Editor, Experienced player (854)
Joined: 5/2/2015
Posts: 696
Location: France
Arcade TASer of 2016
Actually, the knife is on its own one of the strongest items in the game, but it is the item picked up after (polyphemus) that completely breaks it. When the knife is used as a melee weapon, at base damage, with ??? (played character), it deals 7.35 damage per 2/3 ticks of touching the enemy (don't remember exact speed) However, when the knife is thrown, it deals triple the damage, so 22.05 damage. The item picked up next after the knife (the big eye, Polyphemus) is a huge damage multiplier, that multiplies your damage by almonst 5 if you are at normal damage, but in exchange, you fire very slowly. However, since the player has the knife instead, the fire rate decrease is not applied, since it doens't effect the knife, and you only get the massive damage multiplier. As such, when thrown, the knife ends up doing 94.50 damage every 2/3 ticks when thrown. Note the two last bosses have 2000 health each.. EDIT: Forgot he gets Sacred Heart later in the run. Sacred Heart is an item that also slightly multiplies your damage and gives you homing shots. Because his damage is alderaly huge, we go from 94.50 damage per 3 ticks to 223.35!!! damage per 3 ticks. The homing portion of the item also makes it so that the knife will home in ennemies and stay in them for a considerably longer period of time. Again, the two last bosses have 2000 health each (highest in game) and this destroys them in less than a second.. This combo is usually banned in speedrunning competitions.
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Posted: 5/6/2015 5:47 PM
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jlun2
Skilled player (1742)
Joined: 9/17/2009
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GBA TASer of 2010
Huh. Curious that this is banned despite doesn't seem to be a glitch or developer cheat. Also, should this discussion be moved to the windows game section?
LLCoolDave wrote:
This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.
Posted: 5/6/2015 6:00 PM
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xy2_
Editor, Experienced player (854)
Joined: 5/2/2015
Posts: 696
Location: France
Arcade TASer of 2016
It was not banned in normal speedrunning, however competions for cash (aka Balls of Steels) banned the item althogheter because it 'gave too much power'. In the original version, it did everything: gave extra damage, piercing effect if your tear instantanely kills an enemy, and also has a big damage multiplier (considering few items give damage and only very few items give one, this is a big advantage). The only things that keeps it a top 5 item and not a gamewinner is the fire rate down. However, with the knife, this is completely negated, as for why it is banned.
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Posted: 5/6/2015 6:33 PM
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Tangent
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
If you didn't know, drops and layouts in the game are controlled by random seed (which you can manually select, but internally counts as cheating), not an RNG. Aside from meaning a finite number of possible layouts (ballparking at a mere 37^8), that doesn't mean there exists a seed where all those drops can possibly actually happen. What that run does is modify the item and layout files in the game, which is very different from luck manipulation. I admit to not knowing a lot about the item generation, but it's quite possible that there are normally limitations or pools that certain items are drawn from, so X dropping at the very start may preclude Y from dropping until much later, or X may be tied (intentionally or not) to certain layouts normally. Or the algorithm that the seed is input into guarantees a certain number of short and long levels. Etc etc. Anyway, the point is that an Isaac run would likely not have anywhere near as much RNG manipulation as there seems since everything critically important is controlled by a single variable which is set at the very start and doesn't change for the entire run. In essence, and to answer the OP, the important variables already are fixed, not truly random. If you know the seed, you know everything.
Posted: 5/6/2015 7:43 PM
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Warp
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Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
I know this is nitpicking, but I'm too much of a perfectionist to not to comment a bit... :) You seem to be using "RNG" (ie. random number generator) to mean something along the lines that its output cannot be predicted (for example because it draws its values from a nondeterministic source, such as player input or sampling resistor noise), and that BoI does not use a RNG because it produces a seed value at the start of the game and after that everything is deterministically generated from that. That's not what "RNG" means when talking about computer programs. (Well, not strictly at least. If you have a non-deterministic source of randomness available to your program, you can of course use it. However, that's almost never the case in practice, especially if you need to produce a large amount of "random" values in a very short period of time, eg. in a fraction of a second.) Although in this context it's more accurate to use the acronym "PRNG" (ie. pseudorandom number generator). However, in practice the term "RNG" is used to mean "PRNG" in this context. It's not uncommon at all for programs, such as video games, to generate a random seed at the start of the program from a non-deterministic source (most usually the system's clock) and then from that point forward use a PRNG algorithm for all of its random number needs. Since such algorithms are deterministic, it means that every number that comes next out of it is predictable. Of course what this means (and closer to your point) that if all the "randomly" generated levels are generated at the start of the game using this, it's much harder to get a favorable layout, as you can't control the output of the RNG on a level-by-level basis. The only thing you can control is the initial seed for the RNG. (It would be easier if levels were generated at the start of each level, and if something else in the game also draws values from the RNG, eg. based on what the player does. This would add more control to generating each level.) Anyway, this has little to do with the original point, so I'll just shut up now.
Posted: 5/6/2015 9:27 PM
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Tangent
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance. But yes, I was oversimplifying. Still, there really aren't any TRULY random number generators. The best we can do is assume something is random (or random enough) and base generation on that. Besides, if RNGs were truly random, then the same input from the same starting point would produce different results, and duplicating/verifying anything that relies on one would be functionally impossible, so in the context of any kind of duplicatable results, you can't ever be talking about a true RNG.
Posted: 5/7/2015 4:53 AM
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andypanther
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I really hope that an Isaac TAS - if such a thing ever gets made - just goes for nothing but fastest time and ignores all arbitrary stuff by the community.
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Posted: 5/7/2015 6:21 AM
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Patashu
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Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4044
andypanther wrote:
I really hope that an Isaac TAS - if such a thing ever gets made - just goes for nothing but fastest time and ignores all arbitrary stuff by the community.
It should be like the Spelunky TAS already on the site - so fast you don't even have time to take in what just happened :D
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