Game Objectives

  • Emulator used: Bizhawk 1.9.4
  • Takes damage to save time
  • Uses death as shortcut
  • Manipulates luck
  • Abuses programming errors

Comments

This run is very similar to the Dual Run made by neo_omegon but with improvements when it was possible. For planning of route and boss strategies you can check the walkthough plan
So, what's new? You can learn Goblin Punch from a random battle which saves some time avoiding entering the Beginner's House (although you'll lack a phoenix down to sell). You can cast Old with the Ancient Sword on Halicarnaso (you'll have 1/3 of whatever chance you had before, but in a TAS it doesn't matter), so Mua Village is skipped (and so is buying Haste 2). Step manipulation is similar too, but it stops being alike in the Barrier Tower (avoided a battle there). No running like crazy in Mua Forest due to step manipulation, sorry. I also bought more items on Karnak in order to have some magic evasion early on.

FAQ

  • How is lag compared with the last run on SNES9x?
In Bizhawk the game lags a lot more, just by opening the game the comparison is 198 (Snes9x 1.43) vs 215 (Bizhawk 1.9.4) of lag frames; 753 vs 826 when you gain control & it will keep adding as the game goes on. Battles take like 4 extra lag frames just to load and there's quite some "lag" (just delay and not lag frames) if the enemy has to perform a command. Also notice that 1 frame in Snes9x is not exactly the same as 1 frame in Bizhawk (if I understood is close to 60 vs 60.1), so you cannot compare them as being the same.
  • How does step manipulation works?
Tiles have some danger value, which amounts can be 0x0000 (safe zone, such as save points and squares where events happen), 0x0010 (sea), 0x0040 (which I label as "Ghost Town"), 0x00E0 (Dungeon), 0x0100 (World Map), 0x0180 (Special, like Moogle Sands) or 0x0200 (not sure if there's a map with this info, but the value does exist in the ROM. I think the GBA uses this on the new dungeon but haven't checked it). This danger will constantly keep adding and comparing to a random number taken from a LUT (which ranges from 0 to 255 in a random order). A random battle will trigger when the upper byte of the danger is bigger than such value. This video that I made to explain how to avoid random battles should demonstrate it a bit (although is just World Map): Avoid Random Encounters
  • With step manipulation, is it possible to avoid all random encounters?
Short answer is no. The reason is that the LUT containing the random numbers are sorted in a way that dungeons with, say more than say 50 steps to the next door, is impossible to get a pattern that allows you to walk that much. However, in the (US) GBA version, you can also reset the danger with a quick-save, so in that version it is possible to evade all random battles. (There are long rooms with danger step danger of 0x0040, which you could walk like 70 steps w/o getting a battle, but I'm just making a general example as most of the time you'll have danger steps of 0x00E0 or 0x0100)
  • Changing rows to escape quicker
While is true that is 8 frames faster to escape from back row than in the front row, you must remember that opening the menu takes "a lot" of frames (around 96 frames in world map from pressing X until you regain control). So is only feasible to do so if you have another reason to open the menu, like for changing jobs or using an item (which is faster than using it in the battlefield).
  • Taking or skipping walking into save points.
Apart from the first save point in Wind Shrine, there are 6 more that are in your way (Map ID: 006E, 00D0, 0057, 00D3, 0149, 0114). The event explaining how they work will always trigger the first time you step into one (doesn't matter which one). The save point in Karnak Castle is laggy, so it's always skipped. If you were to skip those other 5, it means 10 extra steps (~10x8 frames) which in the end results in ~22 frames slower than simple triggering the text and then walking straight into the save points. However, in map 006E (Tower of Walse) you can manipulate steps, so is possible (and I actually did in my run) to evade it in order to take +2 steps. Still it should be about ~6 frames faster to trigger the explanation anyways.
  • Why don't you evade all random battles in the world map?
The reason is that I need sometimes for the group formation to advance in order to trigger an specific formation later on.

Tips & Tricks

  • Saving steps
You can save steps (as in avoiding the counter to increase) in a few ways. First is in the world map you can open the menu while the walking animation hasn't ended. You can also ride on a transport on the first frame you reach it & will not count such step. The other option is to walk into tiles that doesn't register danger (which are placed where events can/had happened).
  • Manipulating RNG before a battle
One frame before the screen goes black (and lags while loading the battle info), if you press any combination of buttons you may alter some values (e.g. Enemy speed, Pre-Emptive, Back Attack, RNG counters A & B, etc). Note that there are 12 buttons on the SNES, the combination of buttons pressed is 4096 (2^12), but plenty of times meaningful addresses (enemies speed, RNG counters A & B) will be the same so no need to test that much, covering up to 2 buttons pressed covers most cases & will suffice.
  • Avoid random battles
You can avoid random battles most of the time by resetting the danger meter (Exception goes when there a 0 to compare next step and you're in the world map or walking into the Moogle Sands as 1 step will always be higher than 0).
  • Infinite Items Stolen
Here's a video that explains it, Infinite Item Stolen

Comparison

Considering that lag is higher in Bizhawk than it was in Snes9x 1.47 (and frames are not measured the same), there can't be a direct comparison with the last runs. However, using the times with the memory address 7E094A XXXXXXXX (In-game timer, in frames) can still give you some feedback (That address stops when in battle, so is easy to obtain its values).
LocationCurrent TASDual TASOld TASNotes
WingRaptor554465529155416Avoiding Breath Wing saves quite some time
Karlabos906669188591755
Siren114184115348115352
Magissa125602126624127594Using an item before the battle is a bit faster (specially if you had to open the menu anyways)
Galura138560139798142831Saved 1 command by making Lenna equipping the Mythril Knife
Liquid Flame174109175347178549
Iron Claw187392188381193612Trying to run away while the Sargent speaks affects in no way, just did it to use the dead time on something
Ifrit198346199354203534Pre-Emptive
Byblos204647205693209870
Sand Worm246947248373252218Not sure if all 6 counters can realistically be evaded (due to RNG nature), so I was only able to do half.
Cray Claw268065269930278450
Adamantium278899280725289301I was able to stand 1 attack which is faster than parrying it
Sol Cannon290201292875301956Combination of Blue Mage + Ninja w/Black was faster (because of their speed), still uses the same number of turns
Archeoavis299288302420310442Better combination of magic damage left Archaeavis with 1 hp left to die from the leak, so I skipped changing battle speed
Puroboros332920344347355190Killing them on the first command instead of the 3rd saved some time
Titan335744340886351179
Chimera Brain339841336994347361Saved 1 turn
World 2344838348654359556
Abductor348526352332363238Timer doesn't refresh when you die. Also next scene animation is quicker when dead than alive.
Gilgamesh357678362171
Gilgamesh362102366781378447In the Big Bridge I take a different route than intended, as I get no battles where I supposed to do
Tyrasaurus373963378493392430
Abductor403105407454427224Evading his magical attack was faster than receiving damage
HiryuuPlant424918429430450195
Gilgamesh458609463146479218
Atomos470882475368492300Most likely lost that much because of the enemy performing 3 "attacks"
Seal Guardians507653513516530868Despite no Haste, I ended being faster, maybe due to having only 3 enemies attack on the first round & haste animation being "slow"
Exdeath517731523577540919Timer doesn't refresh when you die.
Exdeath545735553658569336Someone can die as you don't receive exp nor ABP
World 3548951556844572553
Antlion568227575982591837
Gargoyle594853602275619458Due to jobs, I can't kill one of them before they attack
Mummy597887605539623385
Merugene613776621797639604
Calofisteri635520 660870
Apanda638353 663647
Catastroph643242 668014
Halicarnaso646305 671343
Twin Tania647555 673113Skipped his dialogue transforming
Ex-Death665253 691214No Neo Exdeath, like in first run

Improvements / Blunders

  • Even better luck manipulation.
Understanding what exactly determines outcomes (like enemies commands or steal attempts) would be useful for improving this run. While addresses 7E003A, 7E003B are helpful, I still had to test manually as I don't know their meaning. Finding addresses for your attacks (they are not based on those addresses).
  • NPC movements
Lost some time chasing the Black Chocobo as he went upwards and not downwards to me. Also had bad luck with the Aspis (but was minor). There was a NPC in Karnak Town blocking me, but passing through was slower than surrounding him. Omega would had also be in my way, but luckily I needed extra steps, so it was irrelevant.
  • Avoid taking extra steps in world map to manipulate step encounter if possible.
Walking in the world map is slower than in dungeons where you can dash. Exception is the first time you gain control as for some reason the counter will move despite using a transport (and the Chocobo moves at 8 frames per square, just like dashing).
  • Command inputs during battle animations
neo_omegon said it was faster than inputs done ASAP. Either I was just not able to get it to work properly or it is just not faster (However, it is still useful even if it weren't). There was a strange behavior though, it seemed that not always doing an input ASAP would end the battle the quickest.
  • Taking extra steps to reduce encounter battles
You have to take into account that by taking extra steps, you're losing time. Triggering a battle can be slower or not depending on how many steps you needed to take. However, notice that sometimes you want to advance the group encounter in order to trigger an specific monster formation later on (or in a Speedrun, avoid it), so you must trigger it.
  • Plan a new route
You can avoid some battles on the Shipwreck and then move the enemy formation forward on Karnak Castle, so that you can get specific battle encounters later on. I think is possible to fight only 2 formations of Statue x5 and have Butz learn Combine just before Gilgamesh at Zeza's fleet, then later on have it learned on Galuf. At the Void, I think it might be faster to take 1 Ribbon instead of the Hermes Shoes, it would make 3 battles slower, but it won't detour from the path saving some time.
  • Reset to get a new RNG
Personally I don't like resets on games, but with it you can get different RNG depending on how long you take to choose which file to load. Consider though that it takes quite some time, so is not that easy to find a useful way to implement it.

Thanks to

  • Everyone mentioned in my prior TAS
  • neo_omegon for his dual run, in which I based on that route to make this TAS
  • Omnigamer for the RNG addresses which were extremely useful
  • ffbin site for dungeon encounter ROM address
  • My brother for gifting me a Super Famicom cartridge of Final Fantasy V from Japan, which got me interested in playing this game again.

Suggested Screenshot

Don't have anything in mind, although it will need a new one as it won't be the same settings as the one used on the past run.
BTW, I uploaded the Lua files I used on that video here: Lua script

turska: Judging.

turska: Nice improvement. Accepting for publication.
Spikestuff: Publishing.


TASVideoAgent
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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #4715: samurai_goroh's SNES Final Fantasy V in 3:25:57.13
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Another run of FF5, I can't wait to watch it. Will vote once that's done. Edit, finally found time to watch it. Yes vote, can't give it any less.
Player (13)
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Very nice TAS, although the high cutscenes vs gameplay ratio and the abuse of the Dark Spark + Level 2 Old + Level 5 Death combo made long segments of it rather forgettable, especially in the 2nd half. Still, as someone familiar with this game, I give a Yes vote overall.
Former player
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I feel that this run is indeed well done, especially given a >8 minute improvement with a more accurate emulator, but as far as entertainment goes it's kind of lacking. Due to the length, some author commentary subtitles or such would've went really well with it since you can't really see what's going on in menus, and the text is effectively unreadable (even if you can understand japanese) due to the extremely short period of time it's present on screen. I give this a weak yes vote. Good job though.
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Yea, this has been the bane for this game (if you're not familiar with it & sometimes even if you are familiar, you can't follow that well what's going on). I thought that the Lua script would be a bit useful (along with the walktrough), but I guess nothing beats a subtitle explaining what's going on on the fly.
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Subtitles usially make long runs extremely enjoyable, so I reccomend them. Big Yes vote from me!
Cooljay
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Good to see an improvement for this game, Would still like to see a TAS on the advance version someday as well though. It is still quite entertaining for me so I voted yes.
Sir_VG
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Voting yes for vaulting this run, replacing the current run. Would also love to see a run sometime of this FFV romhack: http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/1408/
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
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Cooljay wrote:
Would still like to see a TAS on the advance version someday as well though.
Mmm, the strategies would be very similar (no exploitable bugs though, which some people may like because of Neo Exdeath). I think the SDA run was like that IIRC, it's been ages since I saw that run though. I also know some Japanese players do speedruns with that condition, but I've never seen one of those runs. Also, the GBA version would likely have to use of quick save inside dungeons in order to avoid random battles (not always, but surely in big rooms like Mua Forest) & I think that makes the run less appealing, at least it does to me. That been said, maybe if a Low Level Game TAS branch is allowed to be submitted, I could be interested on working on that. Another branch could be 100% treasure rate, but I think that wouldn't be appealing at all (or maybe 100% bestiary, which makes the GBA version best version to do it)...
Sir VG wrote:
Would also love to see a run sometime of this FFV romhack: http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/1408/
I know about that patch (as I have it since it came) but never played it before nor the ancient cave one...
I'm the best in the Universe! Remember that!
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Well, I think it's cool that this run exists: FFV has a kind of soft spot for me since I played it a lot back in the day, and it's great that there is a new record of it. But I would still only give it a 'meh' vote since it's quite arduous to watch as a whole.
Post subject: Movie published
TASVideoAgent
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This movie has been published. The posts before this message apply to the submission, and posts after this message apply to the published movie. ---- [2882] SNES Final Fantasy V by samurai_goroh in 3:25:57.13
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92% Yes votes, yet it was published to Vault. Is this a mistake?
Noxxa
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SmashManiac wrote:
92% Yes votes, yet it was published to Vault. Is this a mistake?
The previous run had poor ratings and was put in the Vault as a result of that. Is this run significantly different? EDIT: Looking at the viewer comments, with comments like "weak yes vote", "voting yes for vault", "long segments of it rather forgettable" on the yes votes, I'd take the poll results with a slight grain of salt.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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That's a very good point. After verification, the old run had 94% Yes votes but only a 5.5 rating. Assuming the audience has similar tastes, that's a pretty big gap between the average and the aggregate statistics. It looks like we're in a situation similar to the difference between a movie's Metascore and Tomatometer - same reviews, different measure of overall satisfaction, wildly different results. I'm not sure which statistic is the best one to determine Moons qualification, but if it is the average rating, then it might be worth considering using a different voting question during submission to avoid bias.
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SmashManiac wrote:
That's a very good point. After verification, the old run had 94% Yes votes but only a 5.5 rating. Assuming the audience has similar tastes, that's a pretty big gap between the average and the aggregate statistics. It looks like we're in a situation similar to the difference between a movie's Metascore and Tomatometer - same reviews, different measure of overall satisfaction, wildly different results. I'm not sure which statistic is the best one to determine Moons qualification, but if it is the average rating, then it might be worth considering using a different voting question during submission to avoid bias.
It's been suggested many a times before. The problem's most easily seen in particularly insipid Atari games when someone declares a frame war and it goes from mostly no to mostly yes. I think the reasoning usually given is that a lot of things depend on the votes being the way that they are and it's be a pain to change them, but voting's been pretty useless ever since the vault was introduced as culture is still firmly focused on the old question of "Should this be published?" I've long been a proponent of changing the question to "Which tier does this belong to?" "Moon / Vault / Reject" since the current question doesn't distinguish between the latter two categories and is all but worthless for improvements. Alas.
Spikestuff
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People are voting on "should be accepted?" not "is it entertaining?". This is what screwed I believe 2 different TASes now. Both had "love" and went to moons only to immediately get shot in down in votes and booted to Vault.
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This is something about this forum that I will never understand, what's the problem with this question: "Did you find this movie entertaining?" It's so simple to anyone that can read. So people either deliberately ignore the question because they oppose something about the system, or they don't read the question at all and just assume it means "should this movie be published?".
Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
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I usually only check and vote runs I'm interested on. So if the run was good, I'll like it (because I already liked the game and had an idea of what to expect). So what I'm going, is that the only people that voted are people which Like Final Fantasy Games, so hence that biased poll results. (And yes, I think the poll makes no sense for where should it go if it gets published)
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Tangent wrote:
I've long been a proponent of changing the question to "Which tier does this belong to?" "Moon / Vault / Reject" since the current question doesn't distinguish between the latter two categories and is all but worthless for improvements. Alas.
There's one way this will fall apart; for obscure games that didn't managed to gather much viewers, and end up having barely any comments or votes.
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jlun2 wrote:
Tangent wrote:
I've long been a proponent of changing the question to "Which tier does this belong to?" "Moon / Vault / Reject" since the current question doesn't distinguish between the latter two categories and is all but worthless for improvements. Alas.
There's one way this will fall apart; for obscure games that didn't managed to gather much viewers, and end up having barely any comments or votes.
How's that different from the current situation?
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samurai goroh wrote:
I usually only check and vote runs I'm interested on. So if the run was good, I'll like it (because I already liked the game and had an idea of what to expect). So what I'm going, is that the only people that voted are people which Like Final Fantasy Games, so hence that biased poll results. (And yes, I think the poll makes no sense for where should it go if it gets published)
Yes, but considering that argument also applies for users rating movies after publication, I don't think it's that much of a difference.
Spikestuff wrote:
People are voting on "should be accepted?" not "is it entertaining?".
Some people definitely are, and looking at Sir VG's last comment, he seems to have done that very mistake. Still, it's hard to assess how widespread this problem really is. That said, I can think of an easy way to remove that possibility: How entertaining is this movie?
    Very entertaining Somewhat entertaining Not really entertaining
Not only would it force the viewer to consider the entertainment factor, but it would also defines more precisely the choices.