Are there any known exploits for 3D consoles that doesn't require a modified save?
Symphony of the Night has ACE, but from what I understand it requires a fairly lengthy setup that's all menuing (compare the first ACE runs on the Gameboy Pokemon games). Also SotN isn't really a 3D game. Though I would dearly love to see a payload that lets you play as NES-era Simon Belmont in SotN. :)
I'm not aware of any other ACE exploits on post-SNES-era consoles.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player
(908)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
Thank you for all who made suggestions. I've updated this first post, and I've also created a thread for SGDQ 2017 planning (spoilers) that I moved some of the ideas from here that were a better fit for that kind of event.
Please discuss - what ideas out of the pitches in the first post are most interesting to you? Do you have any interest in helping out on any of them? Did I miss something that should be added to the list? Submissions for AGDQ 2017 are only open from September 4th through the 10th and I want to be done submitting no later than the 9th, so speak up while you can!
Although I think the console virus idea is a good one, I don't think we'd be likely to properly do it justice without more planning. As such, saving it for a future GDQ may be for the best. For similar reasons, messing around on the NES Mini is probably a bad idea (as we won't know what's even possible until the console is released).
The N64 shenanigans sound like a good thing to make the centrepiece of the block, assuming you can find something sufficiently crazy that will be a hit with the crowd. (I know there are people who want to see an ACE on a 3D console.)
I'd recommend that most or all of the games you play are well-known ones; a common criticism of TAS blocks is that people often can't easily distinguish humanly possible play from TAS insanity unless the games are well known or the results (ACE, etc.) are so insane that the game doesn't matter. Mario Kart 64 is a good example to this end, because the game is widely known, and even if you don't know it it's clear that something ridiculous is happening. I'd recommend looking for a category with good variety (in particular, you don't want to be using the same glitch in multiple courses).
Scribblenauts is an excellent idea as far as crowd involvement goes. One issue is that it's not really showing off anything that can be done non-TAS, and it's also not really a speedrun, so it might be a poor fit for the event. (Besides, the correct solution is always "handcuff the Starite to a vending machine" :-P)
The other ideas are vague enough that I can't really comment, other than the general advice above.
(I also note that there's been a suggestion that it might be worth skipping a GDQ if there isn't enough material. One of the problems with TASbot at GDQ is that it tends to set the bar for itself very high, and blow minds to the extent that people can't comprehend anything better. Then it isn't, and they get disappointed.)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
dwangoAC wrote:
Idea #4 (added 2016-08-19): Music composition
There's an unreleased game on the SNES named Sound Fantasy that I've done some testing with. In the first game mode it's possible to position notes in a way that allows for the creation of some pretty interesting music. We might even be able to pull off some kind of crazy Twitch Plays or something, but for now I just want someone to literally write a song. I have a potential resource for this who comes from a tracker music background.
I have a song for you, but I need to know what are the capabilities of the "device". Like how many notes can it play at once and how short they can be.
As for N64 stuff, what about streaming the camera data to the console screen? Might end up looking like this if the camera is positioned right:
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Another vote for the four CPUs monopoly run. As a special request, I would like it to be presented like this:
At the end of input, call "Time!", unplug the controllers and wave them in the air to show you disconnected tasbot. Then start talking about the heavy luck manipulation of the run as through the run was actually over even though it's still playing. "Sorry, what? Oh it's basically over. We've won."
Or something to that general effect.
Also Dwango had a TGM (Tetris) request we discussed briefly in IRC
Just saw this post, and decided to search for "tetris the grandmaster tas" on Youtube. Found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZaq0jQcZVQ
I think if a TGM TAS can be verified it would be incredible for either GDQ event, and perhaps we could get someone from the TGM crew to make an encore appearance to race against the TAS to demonstrate the gap between human skill and tool-assisted precision.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player
(908)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
feos wrote:
I have a song for you, but I need to know what are the capabilities of the "device". Like how many notes can it play at once and how short they can be.
Here's an example of the game, at times showing all four possible tracks / "bugs":
Link to video
You can make simple loops, make changes on the fly, and otherwise do some really crazy things with TAS techniques that wouldn't be possible with a human running the show such as redirecting all of the bugs at a specific moment for a bridge portion of a song. You could also easily figure out a way to do something like the 17-second Bubble Bobble loop.
feos wrote:
As for N64 stuff, what about streaming the camera data to the console screen?
That never looks as good as you think it might and would squander an opportunity for even more fun. Keep in mind, SNES only has 256 colors at a time, so that wouldn't look as impressive as you think it would, especially at the low datarates we have now.
Since "music" has been suggested, I'd like to nominate Electroplankton.
Seconding that suggestion. I'm now wondering if it's possible to recreate in the "hanenbow mode" a piece of well known video game music. Even without really knowing the limitations in that game, it looks very hard to do (managing to have the right notes AND a tempo and other stuff...), so it would be a great way to impress the audience.
And there are multiple other "mini-games" (modes) to change things up and prevent it from getting boring.
Idea #8 (added 2016-08-19): Something involving Pokemon Go
We have absolutely no idea what we would do yet. We know it would be cool to do *something*, though...
I see TASing, hacking, and magic all within the same artistic category. They're all exciting because they do something that people thought couldn't be done. The reactions that I see from people outside of the TAS community to TASBot indicate that they basically see TASBot as a magician. When TASBot pulls off a good trick (e.g., TwitchChat, 2-second SMB3), the reaction is, "Wow, how did they do that? *mindblown*" Whereas the segments that people didn't like as much leave minds unblown because of the lack of illusion. The people in this community are marvelous at TASing and hacking, but the magician part is still hit-or-miss. When we're on display at GDQ to a wider, less technically oriented audience, we need the broader entertainment appeal of the magic act.
Don't worry about explaining how technically impressive something is. A magician doesn't reveal how he did a trick immediately after doing it, because that ruins it. I think that's contributing to why some people felt underwhelmed by TASBot at the last GDQ. Once you understand a trick, watching a magician perform it destroys its entertainment value forever. TASBot is more interesting when there's mystery about how it does what it does.
Basically, when thinking of ideas for TASBot to do at GDQs, you don't actually have to do mindblowing things; you just have to make the audience believe that you did, like a magician.
Anyway, my Pokemon Go idea is to make it seem like you can "connect" Pokemon Go to a Game Boy Pokemon, similar to the TwitchChat trick, so that a Pokemon Go screen is displayed on the (Super) Game Boy. It doesn't matter to me whether you actually accomplish it; just make it seem like you did (with ACE). Make it seem like successfully running Pokemon Go on the (Super) Game Boy is the big accomplishment in order to misdirect from the big surprise at the end: a certain Pokemon appears and disappears super fast (before anyone could pull out their phone and check). But TASBot is so fast that it instantly throws a Pokeball and catches it. And that Pokemon is... MISSINGNO.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
dwangoAC wrote:
Here's an example of the game, at times showing all four possible tracks / "bugs":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qGXC-RS-8E
You can make simple loops, make changes on the fly, and otherwise do some really crazy things with TAS techniques that wouldn't be possible with a human running the show such as redirecting all of the bugs at a specific moment for a bridge portion of a song. You could also easily figure out a way to do something like the 17-second Bubble Bobble loop.
Err what the fuck is this game? You only have like 10 notes and no idea of alteration whatsoever?!
dwangoAC wrote:
feos wrote:
As for N64 stuff, what about streaming the camera data to the console screen?
That never looks as good as you think it might and would squander an opportunity for even more fun. Keep in mind, SNES only has 256 colors at a time, so that wouldn't look as impressive as you think it would, especially at the low datarates we have now.
What does it have to do with snes?
Arc wrote:
Anyway, my Pokemon Go idea is to make it seem like you can "connect" Pokemon Go to a Game Boy Pokemon, similar to the TwitchChat trick, so that a Pokemon Go screen is displayed on the (Super) Game Boy. It doesn't matter to me whether you actually accomplish it; just make it seem like you did (with ACE). Make it seem like successfully running Pokemon Go on the (Super) Game Boy is the big accomplishment in order to misdirect from the big surprise at the end: a certain Pokemon appears and disappears super fast (before anyone could pull out their phone and check). But TASBot is so fast that it instantly throws a Pokeball and catches it. And that Pokemon is... MISSINGNO.
This thing... would be the best way to use the camera displayed on tv - with usual pokemon go HUD and overlay stuff! Probably not gdq camera, but any one like dwango's personal smartphone. Isn't that totally insane to see dwango walk around the room, see on n64 what he sees on his screen, and overlay pokemons over that?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
If you're still looking for ideas, or if you think you may run out of time to make a 3D game ACE-payload (not saying that it will happen :P), there's still Zelda: Link to the Past (J) that has an ACE exploit early in the game.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player
(908)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
boct1584 wrote:
I think if a TGM TAS can be verified it would be incredible for either GDQ event, and perhaps we could get someone from the TGM crew to make an encore appearance to race against the TAS to demonstrate the gap between human skill and tool-assisted precision.
Turns out TGM wasn't on the list. I'll add it.
Arc wrote:
I see TASing, hacking, and magic all within the same artistic category. They're all exciting because they do something that people thought couldn't be done. The reactions that I see from people outside of the TAS community to TASBot indicate that they basically see TASBot as a magician.
This is very true; while the trick is being performed I don't like immediately spoiling the surprise (although I did exactly that the second time we did Pokemon Plays Twitch at AGDQ 2015, but that's on me). I really liked SMB3 where we didn't explain how there was a console in the game right away and kept people guessing (it even fooled Leo Laporte!). On the other hand, the amount of confusion out there abounds with people assuming that we've just shown a romhack or otherwise modified the game, so I think it's really important to explain at least some aspects. Finding that balance is tricky, but ultimately I consider what we do works of art and sometimes it's better to just let the viewer interpret what it means to them rather than forcing a perspective. There's definitely room for improvement - thanks for bringing this back up.
feos wrote:
You only have like 10 notes and no idea of alteration whatsoever?!
There's a lot more to it than that; you have two full octaves to work with when you include the sounds the directional markers make. There are four different instrument slots but each slot has multiple sounds (represented by different bugs). You can play music and move notes around at the same time, so that's not an issue either. Compared to any of the Electorplankton modes, I think there's a lot more possibility for creating something useful and interesting, even moreso than Mario Paint. Testing is required, however.
jlun2 wrote:
If you're still looking for ideas, or if you think you may run out of time to make a 3D game ACE-payload (not saying that it will happen :P), there's still Zelda: Link to the Past (J) that has an ACE exploit early in the game.
Good suggestion - I'll add a note in that section.
IIRC the TGM people were considering giving this GDQ a miss, and they pretty much need to be there for TGM to work.
If they are, though, my suggestion is to make a TGM TAS that goes for something 100%-style (I'm not sure if you can get all achievements in one run but if you can you should), and race that against the humans playing any%. I have a suspicion that TASbot will still win, but it'll make a hypothetical race more interesting.
I would love to help out not sure what help I could offer however being quite new to all of this...
Also Sound Fantasy looks to me to be a snes version of SimTunes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8FUbKSmFsk
which if that's the case that is really cool...
Makes me wonder however if one could take a .smtune file and through a script send the notes to the same spots in Sound Fantasy.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"
Will be honest I don't remember I'll see if I have my copy and then I can check also I did some more digging and Sound Fantasy and SimTunes are the same game Sound Fantasy was an earlier idea they had before coming out with SimTunes.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player
(908)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
MediaMagnet wrote:
as far as I can tell yes, ReactOS and Windows 98 seem to both be having a fit with anything that can watch framerates...
Uh, wait, *what* are you trying to do exactly? :) I'm aware of SimTunes but unless it works under Hourglass (unlikely as I assume SimTunes requires a mouse) I don't think it's worth heading down that road.
In other news, crissic.net is shutting down their VPS servers including the one that we used for the speed TAS competition results from SGDQ 2015 and AGDQ 2016 so I'm trying to make sure I have everything migrated, although that's had me a bit distracted this week time-wise. We've also been doing some testing to see how far we can push an SNES so we have an idea of what makes sense to pitch. With all that said, I just don't think we're going to have absolutely everything nailed down by September 4th especially with the NES Classic mini idea which we can't even work on until November, so I'm going to chat with GDQ organizers about pitching a few solid ideas for the submissions form but leaving a nebulous "mystery game" on the schedule taking up the bulk of the time and finalizing what that looks like as we get closer to AGDQ 2017.
as far as I can tell yes, ReactOS and Windows 98 seem to both be having a fit with anything that can watch framerates...
Uh, wait, *what* are you trying to do exactly? :) I'm aware of SimTunes but unless it works under Hourglass (unlikely as I assume SimTunes requires a mouse) I don't think it's worth heading down that road.
yeah I had already talked myself out of what i was doing after i had replied to that.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I tested that Sound Fantasy game a bit in snes9x, and I can say there's absolutely no way I could create anything bearable in it, because, as I said, it has no alteration, no speed options, no actual octaves, and I don't believe its bugs even produce anything close to real notes, probably only by accident.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player
(908)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
So I haven't yet submitted anything for AGDQ 2017, but I'm going to very soon. The current plan is to submit what we can that's solidly defined and put the rest of it in a mystery category. This is largely because we know what we *can* do but we don't yet know what we won't be able to do, if that made much sense. In particular, there is no way to know if it's possible to do anything with the NES Mini until we get it. We have plenty of content to fill 1 hour (45 minutes of content and 15 minutes of setup), so that's not a concern.
I've updated the first post with the current list of ideas, but it ultimately boils down to MK64 with multiple categories for different combinations of cups, a reference to Pokemon Go that if accepted will be incorporated into existing content to take advantage of and otherwise will be ignored (which will allow the submission committee to decide if they want that kind of content), and a final "mystery" submission that will cover the various other things we have on the burner right now. The current most likely thing we will do will involve SNES craziness that doesn't involve Mario.
Thoughts? Angry rants? Constructive feedback is welcome!
I think I've found another use case for sub-frame input.
I have been handed the source code of an NES game that is failing to see Zapper trigger presses, and I am expected to fix it. I have been told that it detects all presses in emulators but misses about 20 percent of them on an NES. So I sat and thought of possible differences between the emulation environment and the hardware environment.
One cause of failure to read input happens when a particular control is read multiple times during the frame. An NES input device can change the input at any cycle, while an emulator usually changes once per vblank. A dependency on when in the frame a button is pressed can be tested in an emulator by varying the scanline number on which the input is changed. It doesn't often happen with games that use a controller because a controller is often read only once per frame, compared to a Zapper that has to be read every 10 lines or so to detect light.
The "Display on scanline:" field in PPU Viewer allows changing the scanline on which the pattern table viewer reads video memory. I hereby request the same feature for when presses on the standard controller and the Zapper take effect.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player
(908)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
Just a quick status update - I did get all of the submissions in on time (http://gamesdonequick.com/submission/all and filter on dwangoAC) but I cheated on one of them by making it very vague. I've since privately provided the submissions comittee proof of at least one thing we could show, but it's in their hands as to what they decide to accept or reject. My guess is we'll likely get at least one MK64 cup but can't guarantee it, but I'm still moving forward with a plan of having about 45 minutes for content and 15 minutes for our own internal setup needs.
The regulars are hacking away at all kinds of fronts. I'd like to especially thank Ilari for continuing to support our SNES emulator needs, micro500 for supporting hardware tweaks we've needed, Ownasaurus for making a front-end that has greatly improved the user interface and randomly helping out with video encodes and tests, p4plus2 for digging deep into the soft underbelly of the DKC series of code, and a host of others who have contributed in all manner of other ways.
For now we're waiting for the games list to be posted, but stay tuned!
Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 1047
Location: California
It's probably too late for this suggestion, but the authors of the SM64 1 Key submission recently realized that Tyler Kehne, master of the parallel universe glitch which allowed such time to be saved for any%, lives only 8 hours from the location of AGDQ 2017. If possible and wanted by others, we would love for the 1 Key TAS to be shown off with Tyler himself present. We don't really know where else to ask or mention this, so if someone who knows this process and the people associated could point us in the right direction, we would be grateful!
