I haven't done too much lately since I'm knee-deep working on another project. (not tas related that is) The tas so far gets into the library and although it's pretty optimized, I can't help but feel that it's "choppy", for lack of a better word. Maybe it's a result of the weird controls in the game. I'm thinking of starting over though because I think some parts could be done.
I realized also after watching Not Worthy's video that the block pushing part is most likely faster if pushed from the other side rather than pulled inward towards the pressure pad. (The time it takes after to get through the door that is) I will re-tas it and see if it's true.
In any case, I'll try to record my progress and post the video soon.
Warepire wrote:
The SDA thread was just updated with some videos that contain some interesting stuff.
It's been a while since I worked on this but I found out that it might be possible to clip in 90 degree walls using small enemies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8HIJuHGNIA
Note that I froze both my health and speed value so that I was always moving at 32 units. (running speed) This means that results might be inaccurate but in essence, you would have to clip into the wall on the first hit you take by those spiders or else you will downgrade to walking speed which I am 99% sure will not let you perform this trick.
I will now continuously attempt this without freezing my speed
edit: so here's the deal, when you take a hit, your speed drops to 0 for a frame then it is downgraded to 20, which seems to happen before kingsley can clip into the wall. It might work for some magic angles with very very precise timing etc. but it might take a while to find out if it is. I have a gut feeling that if I keep trying though, it will eventually work
Posted in the SDA thread, but figured I'd just post it here as well:
Hey there! I recently had the pleasure of meeting Fenns at AGDQ this year who introduced me to this game and I'm definitely interested in running it. It has a very similar feel to Blasto to me, so it's well within my comfort zone. During the short time I messed with it, I did find some OOB tricks on my own using damage boots from enemies. Fenns linked me here and the thread on TAS videos and I can see you guys have found similar OOB methods in slightly different ways.
Upon reading up a bit, especially on the TASVids page, I noticed something about getting these clips relying on the relative speed of Kingsley during the clip being 32 (his running speed) and during an enemy attack it resets his speed to 0 on the first frame then down to his normal walk speed at 20.
Now when I found the OOB clips on my own, I was using the method of back-flipping during an enemy attack and was getting much success for taller enemies (not so much for the likes of spiders). With this in mind, I have a feeling that the back-flip may have a speed similar to running in a short moment in addition to getting a proper jump height during an attack that allows for getting the clips successfully. I don't have the resources such as a ROM or things used by TASers, so I'm just making that assumption based on the info I'm reading from you guys.
Speaking of, I found a ROM and plan to dive into the game very soon and will get an actual physical copy relatively soon. In the meantime, if you guys have any resources I could use to help further route this game, feel free to share (ie. I noticed during some testing on the TASVids thread, damage not being taken allowing for constant attempts at clipping). I'm not hugely familiar with emulation due to preferring actual copies of the games I play, so any help in those terms would be great.
Until then, I'm looking forward to breaking this game further :D
Posted in the SDA thread, but figured I'd just post it here as well:
Hey there! I recently had the pleasure of meeting Fenns at AGDQ this year who introduced me to this game and I'm definitely interested in running it. It has a very similar feel to Blasto to me, so it's well within my comfort zone. During the short time I messed with it, I did find some OOB tricks on my own using damage boots from enemies. Fenns linked me here and the thread on TAS videos and I can see you guys have found similar OOB methods in slightly different ways.
Upon reading up a bit, especially on the TASVids page, I noticed something about getting these clips relying on the relative speed of Kingsley during the clip being 32 (his running speed) and during an enemy attack it resets his speed to 0 on the first frame then down to his normal walk speed at 20.
Now when I found the OOB clips on my own, I was using the method of back-flipping during an enemy attack and was getting much success for taller enemies (not so much for the likes of spiders). With this in mind, I have a feeling that the back-flip may have a speed similar to running in a short moment in addition to getting a proper jump height during an attack that allows for getting the clips successfully. I don't have the resources such as a ROM or things used by TASers, so I'm just making that assumption based on the info I'm reading from you guys.
Speaking of, I found a ROM and plan to dive into the game very soon and will get an actual physical copy relatively soon. In the meantime, if you guys have any resources I could use to help further route this game, feel free to share (ie. I noticed during some testing on the TASVids thread, damage not being taken allowing for constant attempts at clipping). I'm not hugely familiar with emulation due to preferring actual copies of the games I play, so any help in those terms would be great.
Until then, I'm looking forward to breaking this game further :D
I booted up the game in my emulator and decided to inspect the behaviors of backflips. A backflip sets Kingsley's speed to 20 which is unfortunately the same as walking speed. When getting attacked at the same time, your speed seems to be reset to 0 for a frame, the same as when on ground. Therefore, backflips shouldn't be relevant to us.
I didn't pay attention to see if backflips actually give you any Y velocity but I did notice that after getting attacked during a backflip, my Y velocity was reset to 0 until I touched the ground again. This may suggest that the backflip is actually only any animation and does not give you any height. I will go back soon to verify that. If you do actually gain height/Y velocity, then it might open some possibilities for glitches and mechanic abuse. (i.e getting attacked while backflipping off a ledge, etc. Stuff like this is worth studying the results)
edit: guess I should talk about the third dungeon as well. I am 99% sure we can't skip it. First, I spent about 3 hours trying to get on top of the slab with the exit passage but could not even get close to reaching this area. This area does have spiders I believe but could not upwarp anywhere using them. (We do know it is possible but extremely difficult, and the only times I was able to perform it was with wide angle walls, not 90 degree ones)
I was able to get on top of that scythe with a series of highly precise jumps, sideway movements and countless rerecords, hopeful that I could jump on the walls but you can't reach them anyway.
I then manually changed my position in the game's memory to get up the slab to see how it behaves with the game anyway, and it turns out that the game softlocks because the gate remains closed. We should therefore work towards perfecting a good route for this dungeon. In some posts before this one, I outlined how to perform an upwarp to get into the cage containing the green leaf and another way to upwarp back up after getting it. (which might be a bit sketchy for RTA, but definitely a good skip for TAS)
I get the feeling that it might be possible to "manipulate" the upwarp, so to speak, and end up on top of the cage rather than the 10,000 units high walls which would save a bit of time and make it viable for RTA!
The other 2 challenge rooms exhibit some interesting properties which I can't wait to play around with.
Hmm...that's interesting. Then maybe speed isn't the factor that's actually causing clips. Fenns can verify that I was clipping consistently using the backflip method so it definitely works, the why is really the question.
I know some games during jump animations (including backflips) factor in distance to the next point. So maybe in the case of the backflip the game is saying "ok, you should land at this point" and the damage boost is pushing beyond that basically pushing Kingsley into the wall and boosting him upwards. Which would explain why it may not have a Y velocity and treats it more as if it is a dash or blink. If that makes sense...
Oh, quick question, which emulator are you using? I'm assuming ePSXe as that tends to be what a lot of people seem to play on I've noticed, but didn't know if there was a prefered.
So I visited that corner between the large books and the wall in the Library (grape key room) and managed to get on top of the map. If you run into the acute angled wall, its pretty easy to work your way into the corner. From there I give some slight taps left while running forward until I can safely maintain the corner glitch using side step instead then keep turning until my back is against the wall. From there I do a quick backflip and immediately release the sidestep and it puts me above the map on a high scale wall.
From there is the hard part however. From a TAS standpoint it may be quite easy to work around the map to the loading point, but RTA may be much more difficult. Haven't tried making a running leap to see if I can actually jump across the room or not, will test that later.
So I visited that corner between the large books and the wall in the Library (grape key room) and managed to get on top of the map. If you run into the acute angled wall, its pretty easy to work your way into the corner. From there I give some slight taps left while running forward until I can safely maintain the corner glitch using side step instead then keep turning until my back is against the wall. From there I do a quick backflip and immediately release the sidestep and it puts me above the map on a high scale wall.
From there is the hard part however. From a TAS standpoint it may be quite easy to work around the map to the loading point, but RTA may be much more difficult. Haven't tried making a running leap to see if I can actually jump across the room or not, will test that later.
If you read some older posts in this thread, you should see that a grape key skip has already been ruled out. Two factors lead me to this conclusion:
1. The wall adjacent to the books we use to upwarp extend to 10,000 units high. If we maneuver a bit on top of this bounding box and reach the corner where the next wall meets with it, we quickly realize that this next wall we would need to step on to finally get to the warp zone is a regular wall which unfortunately does not extend to 10,000 units and therefore means that we cannot safely get down without dying. It is also not possible to jump across the entire room into the warp zone
2. Even if we were to somehow reach the warp zone, the game will softlock when attempting to come out because the grape key door is still up.
Ideas:
1. When I manually moved myself into the warp zone by manipulating the game's memory, I don't think I tried to stand on TOP of the grape key door. Here's my idea: Walls/things that can slide down and up act stangely in this game. In one of the tutorial area, you walk on top of a pressure plate which causes a door to temporarily go down. By staying on top of the door and carefully sidestepping a bit, you can get it to go back up while still being on top of that door. If you move back "deeper" into the door, the game will detect that you are standing on it again and it will fall back down. I would be curious as to what would happen with a key door, and if something interesting does happen, if we can somehow trick the game into keeping the door down. This is all assuming we can find a way to get on top of that door in the first place.
2. Maybe try playing further into the game. (finishing the first dungeon, interacting with npcs, anything...) perhaps advancing the story could trigger the door to go down?
Finally, two unrelated ideas:
1. A simple lua script should be written that can be enabled at will. This script would increment Kingsley's angle every frame (which is in range [0,4200] if I am not mistaken) and set his speed to 32, which is running speed. From there, we position kingsley in front of corners and enable the script. This would simulate the act of running into a corner at full speed from every possible angles, and could help in finding magic angles that will let us perform unassisted corner clips. (which has been impossible up until this point without sharp angles) From there, we could abuse them in a TAS environment by carefully manipulating our angles into these magic numbers. These should be tested with sidesteps as well.
2. When jumping out of bounds and dying in the void, kingsley acts very bizarrely and while it locks your movement, you are actually free to move with sidesteps. I suggest we try jumping into the void next to a warp zone then sidestep into it. Some interesting properties are bound to be manifested
So I made a couple quick highlights.
First is to show how backflipping can boost OoB (bonus of silly enemy death): http://www.twitch.tv/saintconnor/v/35185283
Second is me working with a corner early in dungeon 2 (grape key room) that could maybe skip the pineapple door? Hard to say http://www.twitch.tv/saintconnor/v/35186509
I feel like the platform is too short to allow for a proper OoB boost onto the wall and spiders are too unreliable because their attack animation has no start up for a visual cue. Might be worth looking into still.
this is interesting because it seems to be a bit more reliable than the ways I've been doing it so far and lets you take less damage. Do you actually get the upwarp on the first try always doing it that way? Or does it normally take a few tries? My way going directly forward usually works after 4-5 tries, sometime less, but you do take damage in the process which is sort of sub-ideal for RTA
Saint Connor wrote:
Second is me working with a corner early in dungeon 2 (grape key room) that could maybe skip the pineapple door? Hard to say http://www.twitch.tv/saintconnor/v/35186509
I feel like the platform is too short to allow for a proper OoB boost onto the wall and spiders are too unreliable because their attack animation has no start up for a visual cue. Might be worth looking into still.
I found this wonky corner as well when I was researching this dungeon and had the same reactions as you did in that highlight. It looked promising and all, but never really yielded anything. I still get the strong sensation that there is something to do with this corner and it's puzzling me a lot.
Other than that, the corner you went to try out at the end of that highlight (in front of the wonky acute one) is the one I was able to use along with the spiders to skip pineapple key, if you want to try experimenting with that and your backflip trick. Note that up until now, this clip has been extremely elusive and only occured twice in like 60+ minutes of testing
By the way, here's my updated ram watch which has some extra stuff like health which you can freeze https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1BJqPPfhZhdSWduMVhCaUtOVUk/view?usp=sharing
It's actually pretty slow for the emulator to update the ram watch fields every frame so here's a trick I found out: in the ram watch window, go into Options and then enable "Display Watches On Screen", and then minimize the ram watch window. This will make it so that watches are drawn directly onto the screen by the emulator's renderer which is very fast. Minimizing the ram watch window on the other hand makes it so that it doesn't get updated. You should see a slight improvement in fps from this trick. I told one of the Bizhawk dev about this a while back and I think he said it was on the list of things to fix/optimize.
On a side note, it's good to see some new people getting interested in breaking this game. Until now, it's been mainly me and 2-3 other guys on the SDA thread but I have a pretty good feeling that we're only scratching the surface on how terribly broken this game truly is
edit: lol, press and hold start then exit out the menu using another button. What a weird game
I spent 2-3 hours just screwing around and hunting for anything interesting
here is what I found
1. You can get OoB in Sea Town https://youtu.be/81kEDWZEUWU
I couldn't find a purpose for this after spending a lot of time there but it is pretty cool nonetheless. I was able to hardlock the game from there though which is pretty funny: https://youtu.be/qIKHADkfSLo2. I finally got the pineapple key skip after reviewing your highlight on twitch https://youtu.be/iGBXg9kzrC0
However, the joy was short-lived: I realized that it's not actually possible to skip the grape key afterward unless you don't do the pineapple key skip. This is not such a huge problem since the grape key is quick to get anyway. What I'm more concerned about is this: is the grape key we need in the third dungeon actually the same item in memory? Because if so, it could potentially be faster to skip the first grape key wall, keep the key and use it later in the third dungeon.
The reason you can't skip the grape key in the second dungeon if you skip the pineapple key is pretty interesting. In that room with the grape key door, 2 tall mobs spawn, one of which is IMMOBILE. The mobile one spawns in the middle of the pineapple key door. See where I'm going? Since this door is skipped, the mob spawns on top of it and actually falls down to its death... The immobile mob spawns near a few walls but not close to any good corners.
As if that wasn't enough, that room has pretty much no 90 degree corners, they're all pretty obtuse corners. The only 90 degree corner I could find is the one behind the statue, and while you can reach that corner by fitting yourself behind the statue, you couldn't push the mob in there with you.
Later, I will cheat my position to go past that door regardless and test if it is indeed the same grape key item used in the third dungeon. If it isn't, then all of this we can safely ignore and just use it in the second dungeon as we are supposed to. It might not even save time anyway to keep that grape key for third dungeon
Joined: 3/2/2010
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That's some nice skip of the pineapple key, I do however wonder why you just cannot run on the wall past the grape key door? Maybe you explained it and I just can't understand.
That's some nice skip of the pineapple key, I do however wonder why you just cannot run on the wall past the grape key door? Maybe you explained it and I just can't understand.
ah right, I guess I just kind of implied it but didn't state exactly why. There are high bounding boxes surrounding the door (those that shoot to the sky, which I suggest we refer to as "10,000 units BBs" since these always shoot up to y=10,000) and the only section you could get through is a small part above the grape key door where the BB is normal but you can't quite reach from either sides of the wall. (I am quite sure that it is impossible to reach it but maybe, just maybe, with a combination of frame perfect jumps and sidestepping in the air. I'll have to try it)
Btw, do you think you'll be playing around with Kingsley anytime soon? We could use definitely use some more people for glitch hunting!
this is interesting because it seems to be a bit more reliable than the ways I've been doing it so far and lets you take less damage. Do you actually get the upwarp on the first try always doing it that way? Or does it normally take a few tries? My way going directly forward usually works after 4-5 tries, sometime less, but you do take damage in the process which is sort of sub-ideal for RTA
Yeah, I can get it pretty consistently. I'm just timing the backflip with the enemy attack and it just pops me out. Once you get a feel for the attack timing its actually really easy. Fenns, the guy that introduced me to the game at AGDQ picked it up pretty quickly too after I showed it to him. Also it's quite a bit safer because you can block the damage with your shield until you get your timing to do the flip.
By the way, here's my updated ram watch which has some extra stuff like health which you can freeze https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1BJqPPfhZhdSWduMVhCaUtOVUk/view?usp=sharing
It's actually pretty slow for the emulator to update the ram watch fields every frame so here's a trick I found out: in the ram watch window, go into Options and then enable "Display Watches On Screen", and then minimize the ram watch window. This will make it so that watches are drawn directly onto the screen by the emulator's renderer which is very fast. Minimizing the ram watch window on the other hand makes it so that it doesn't get updated. You should see a slight improvement in fps from this trick. I told one of the Bizhawk dev about this a while back and I think he said it was on the list of things to fix/optimize.
Thanks for the updated RAM watch. I was trying to do a search for things like health values and stuff and was ready to pull my hair out trying to figure shit out and search through the massive list of values, haha.
As for the "display on screen" mechanic...it works in terms of reducing the frame drops, but its such a cluttered mess. I got rid of the unnecessary columns but it still shows all the details on screen regardless so it overlaps and remains cluttered and unreadable. So if you have a fix for that, it would be much appreciated. Otherwise I'll just use the window to make any adjustments like freezing values and just minimize it. I do most of my findings by feeling the game out anyways, this would just be a nice assist.
oxysoft wrote:
2. I finally got the pineapple key skip after reviewing your highlight on twitch https://youtu.be/iGBXg9kzrC0
However, the joy was short-lived: I realized that it's not actually possible to skip the grape key afterward unless you don't do the pineapple key skip. This is not such a huge problem since the grape key is quick to get anyway. What I'm more concerned about is this: is the grape key we need in the third dungeon actually the same item in memory? Because if so, it could potentially be faster to skip the first grape key wall, keep the key and use it later in the third dungeon.
The reason you can't skip the grape key in the second dungeon if you skip the pineapple key is pretty interesting. In that room with the grape key door, 2 tall mobs spawn, one of which is IMMOBILE. The mobile one spawns in the middle of the pineapple key door. See where I'm going? Since this door is skipped, the mob spawns on top of it and actually falls down to its death... The immobile mob spawns near a few walls but not close to any good corners.
As if that wasn't enough, that room has pretty much no 90 degree corners, they're all pretty obtuse corners. The only 90 degree corner I could find is the one behind the statue, and while you can reach that corner by fitting yourself behind the statue, you couldn't push the mob in there with you.
Later, I will cheat my position to go past that door regardless and test if it is indeed the same grape key item used in the third dungeon. If it isn't, then all of this we can safely ignore and just use it in the second dungeon as we are supposed to. It might not even save time anyway to keep that grape key for third dungeon
This is fantastic. Thats a good chunk of early dungeon 2 that can be knocked out by that skip alone. After some messing around and getting a feel of how deep in the wall I need to be to maintain a sidestep, it's pretty easy to setup and execute.
As far as the "why" for skipping the grape key gate, I'm not sure I had the same interactions as you. One of the enemies did die because he spawns where the pineapple gate is, but since you skip it, the gate is still up, so he spawns on top of it and falls to his death when he tries to walk into the room. As for the other one, he's not entirely immobile. He won't make attempts to chase you (which is good) but can still be attacked and moved that way. Other than that, everything functions normally. The main reason we can't get past the grape key gate is that section appears to be surrounded by the very high walls that we encounter every now and then. I tried air strafing around the walls and everything I can think of, but no luck getting around. Damage boost might be possible (and I think this is what you were talking about), but there doesn't seem to be a viable position to do so.
Warepire wrote:
That's some nice skip of the pineapple key, I do however wonder why you just cannot run on the wall past the grape key door? Maybe you explained it and I just can't understand.
See above. In short the walls around the green warp point are super tall and there is no viable way to get around them or over/on them.
this is interesting because it seems to be a bit more reliable than the ways I've been doing it so far and lets you take less damage. Do you actually get the upwarp on the first try always doing it that way? Or does it normally take a few tries? My way going directly forward usually works after 4-5 tries, sometime less, but you do take damage in the process which is sort of sub-ideal for RTA
Yeah, I can get it pretty consistently. I'm just timing the backflip with the enemy attack and it just pops me out. Once you get a feel for the attack timing its actually really easy. Fenns, the guy that introduced me to the game at AGDQ picked it up pretty quickly too after I showed it to him. Also it's quite a bit safer because you can block the damage with your shield until you get your timing to do the flip.
By the way, here's my updated ram watch which has some extra stuff like health which you can freeze https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1BJqPPfhZhdSWduMVhCaUtOVUk/view?usp=sharing
It's actually pretty slow for the emulator to update the ram watch fields every frame so here's a trick I found out: in the ram watch window, go into Options and then enable "Display Watches On Screen", and then minimize the ram watch window. This will make it so that watches are drawn directly onto the screen by the emulator's renderer which is very fast. Minimizing the ram watch window on the other hand makes it so that it doesn't get updated. You should see a slight improvement in fps from this trick. I told one of the Bizhawk dev about this a while back and I think he said it was on the list of things to fix/optimize.
Thanks for the updated RAM watch. I was trying to do a search for things like health values and stuff and was ready to pull my hair out trying to figure shit out and search through the massive list of values, haha.
As for the "display on screen" mechanic...it works in terms of reducing the frame drops, but its such a cluttered mess. I got rid of the unnecessary columns but it still shows all the details on screen regardless so it overlaps and remains cluttered and unreadable. So if you have a fix for that, it would be much appreciated. Otherwise I'll just use the window to make any adjustments like freezing values and just minimize it. I do most of my findings by feeling the game out anyways, this would just be a nice assist.
oxysoft wrote:
2. I finally got the pineapple key skip after reviewing your highlight on twitch https://youtu.be/iGBXg9kzrC0
However, the joy was short-lived: I realized that it's not actually possible to skip the grape key afterward unless you don't do the pineapple key skip. This is not such a huge problem since the grape key is quick to get anyway. What I'm more concerned about is this: is the grape key we need in the third dungeon actually the same item in memory? Because if so, it could potentially be faster to skip the first grape key wall, keep the key and use it later in the third dungeon.
The reason you can't skip the grape key in the second dungeon if you skip the pineapple key is pretty interesting. In that room with the grape key door, 2 tall mobs spawn, one of which is IMMOBILE. The mobile one spawns in the middle of the pineapple key door. See where I'm going? Since this door is skipped, the mob spawns on top of it and actually falls down to its death... The immobile mob spawns near a few walls but not close to any good corners.
As if that wasn't enough, that room has pretty much no 90 degree corners, they're all pretty obtuse corners. The only 90 degree corner I could find is the one behind the statue, and while you can reach that corner by fitting yourself behind the statue, you couldn't push the mob in there with you.
Later, I will cheat my position to go past that door regardless and test if it is indeed the same grape key item used in the third dungeon. If it isn't, then all of this we can safely ignore and just use it in the second dungeon as we are supposed to. It might not even save time anyway to keep that grape key for third dungeon
This is fantastic. Thats a good chunk of early dungeon 2 that can be knocked out by that skip alone. After some messing around and getting a feel of how deep in the wall I need to be to maintain a sidestep, it's pretty easy to setup and execute.
As far as the "why" for skipping the grape key gate, I'm not sure I had the same interactions as you. One of the enemies did die because he spawns where the pineapple gate is, but since you skip it, the gate is still up, so he spawns on top of it and falls to his death when he tries to walk into the room. As for the other one, he's not entirely immobile. He won't make attempts to chase you (which is good) but can still be attacked and moved that way. Other than that, everything functions normally. The main reason we can't get past the grape key gate is that section appears to be surrounded by the very high walls that we encounter every now and then. I tried air strafing around the walls and everything I can think of, but no luck getting around. Damage boost might be possible (and I think this is what you were talking about), but there doesn't seem to be a viable position to do so.
Warepire wrote:
That's some nice skip of the pineapple key, I do however wonder why you just cannot run on the wall past the grape key door? Maybe you explained it and I just can't understand.
See above. In short the walls around the green warp point are super tall and there is no viable way to get around them or over/on them.
Because I've been screwing around with the forward upwarp since its discovery, I can actually get it a lot more consistently than I previously thought. I just run up to 90 degree corners with a mob on my trail and generally get the upwarp on the first hit, or the second sometimes. It can spiral out of control pretty quickly tho if you start missing it so the backflip way is indeed a bit more safe but does waste 2-3 seconds since you have to setup it then possibly end up in a subpar angle in relation to where you want to go after getting upwarped.
If you've used cheat engine in the past, finding interesting values is pretty straightforward. It's just a bunch of tests back to back to narrow down until you get only one/a few.
I'm not sure what you mean by "cluttered mess" but that's what it looks like for me
I personally think that looks nice, with the values on the side
We can indeed move the immobile mob with attacks or just running into it but there is indeed no viable corner for that, and only 2 of which would even be acceptable anyway since they have to be next to the 10,000 units walls so we can get on top of those. I actually wonder if damage boosting straight into a wall without any corner could be a thing? Might be a TAS only trick but that would certainly reiterate things a lot considering we'd no longer be restricted to corners, we could just upwarp where the hell we want, so long as there are nice perpendicular walls.
We can indeed move the immobile mob with attacks or just running into it but there is indeed no viable corner for that, and only 2 of which would even be acceptable anyway since they have to be next to the 10,000 units walls so we can get on top of those. I actually wonder if damage boosting straight into a wall without any corner could be a thing? Might be a TAS only trick but that would certainly reiterate things a lot considering we'd no longer be restricted to corners, we could just upwarp where the hell we want, so long as there are nice perpendicular walls.
I tried messing with just straight up against a wall, but I think the reason a corner works is because it restricts your side to side movement. So instead of an attack against a wall pushing you to one side or the other, it just pushes you back, allowing for the boost to happen.
That's the best explanation I got anyways. If you can manage to do it without a corner, I feel like it would be a TAS only thing and would be really hard to setup RTA.
So good news...most of dungeon 2 can be skipped through various corner and damage boosts.
Bad news...it may come with consequences...
I made my way through the dungeon skipping anything and everything possible, including the boss. After skipping the boss, all the triggers saying you "killed" him are affected. ie: dialogue triggers. However, the last cottage when you talk to the little girl about your achievements there is a door, like so http://puu.sh/muK3y/befe20d301.png
It's the only exit. Problem is, there is not loading zone. You walk through the door and just fall into the abyss and die. This also causes a soft lock because you can't go back the way you came and there is no where else to go. I've tried jumping as far as I can out into the blackness and everything. There is nothing.
With this image you can see I'm standing where the load zone SHOULD be, but isn't: http://puu.sh/muKue/4e0f606bbd.png
Going to redo the boss fight and see if that actually makes things work or not.
EDIT:
So the boss drops the Knife and Fork as an item upon death that is required to trigger the last load point. So rip skipping the boss fight. That's really unfortunate, and I'm not sure there is a way to dupe the item somehow without fighting.
I guess the next step would be finding some boss manipulation to give the most favorable pattern.
I think I figured out the strat against Snuff. If you haven't read the earlier posts in this thread, then you probably learned the hard way that skipping snuff entirely is not viable because it will cause a required loading zone to vanish completely out of existence a room or two later. (thanks psygnosis!) As such, I decided to search for a new trick. Here is what I came up with just now
https://youtu.be/Gq3U4Ld909I
Not too hard to do RTA as long as you practice it enough. It's actually possible to drop down into the small space behind the door and manipulate Snuff into killing himself from there, meaning that you don't have to take a death and you get to save a couple seconds, but it is much harder and comes down to rng a lot more I think.
note that my game was a bit glitched in this recording, (weird polygons, etc.) but the trick should work regardless. I think this might have happened because of how I was trying to exploit the game using the start menu glitch (fall down into the void, wait a bit and press start just before the transition. You will respawn with the start menu still showing while being able to move around)
I think I figured out the strat against Snuff. If you haven't read the earlier posts in this thread, then you probably learned the hard way that skipping snuff entirely is not viable because it will cause a required loading zone to vanish completely out of existence a room or two later. (thanks psygnosis!) As such, I decided to search for a new trick. Here is what I came up with just now
https://youtu.be/Gq3U4Ld909I
Not too hard to do RTA as long as you practice it enough. It's actually possible to drop down into the small space behind the door and manipulate Snuff into killing himself from there, meaning that you don't have to take a death and you get to save a couple seconds, but it is much harder and comes down to rng a lot more I think.
note that my game was a bit glitched in this recording, (weird polygons, etc.) but the trick should work regardless. I think this might have happened because of how I was trying to exploit the game using the start menu glitch (fall down into the void, wait a bit and press start just before the transition. You will respawn with the start menu still showing while being able to move around)
Oh man, I must have completely missed that post. That's amazing and hilarious though. Good to know.
Also, I feel with all the damage boosting we do, we need to figure out viable heart/1up and possibly coin patterns because continues in this game start you at the beginning of a dungeon...and that sucks hard.
yes, hearts and stuff will have to be routed indeed
found a way to corrupt the vram using an acute corner to perform an upwarp. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP8_1Ciah5E&feature=youtu.be
serves no purpose but I thought I might as well show. (did you know Kingsley's dead body can sidestep as well!?)
If you jump straight into the portal and skip little girl, you will hardlock(screen remains black)
Welp. I hate dungeon 3. Nothing looks or seems reasonable in terms of skips. Upside is it is relatively short and easy. The crypt puzzle is annoying though. Take so long to move those things around to the right spots.
Okay, well I guess I learned my lesson. Never fuck around with the menu glitch I listed above. I think my entire rom of Kingsley got corrupted. When I start the game (no save or anything, clean start) some of the VRAM is corrupted already, and it freezes all over the place. In fact, I just let it on the start menu for a bit and the game crashed during the demo
Saint Connor wrote:
Welp. I hate dungeon 3. Nothing looks or seems reasonable in terms of skips. Upside is it is relatively short and easy. The crypt puzzle is annoying though. Take so long to move those things around to the right spots.
Dungeon 3 is pretty boring yea
edit: I guess I forgot to mention a small detail about the pineapple key door skip. When I toyed with it yesterday, trying to find a solution for the grape key, I did notice something: when the spiders were deployed, if you can somehow get a spider on top of that door, the mobile tall monster will spawn on the ground below, but on the wrong side. I'm not sure if the spider's positioning on that door could somehow affect the side the tall monster will spawn on but this is a potential trick for TAS. Also to get spiders on top of walls is actually quite an easy trick and happens all the time during casual play: (in fact, not only with spiders, as you may have noticed in your highlight, the tall monster that randomly just died) their movement speed is so high when they lunge at you that they can easily upwarp all over the place, and they will always keep doing their lunge when you are on an opposite wall. Monsters can perform unassisted upwarps relatively easily, and on straight walls even.
Beein researching the third dungeon for a bit
Finally found a way to skip the entire third dungeon. This doesn't stop the softlock from happening after but at least it's possible so there's that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cspZ92dCXS4
Found a way to perform an upwarp and and quickly activate the pressure plate and release the cage around the purple plant/ingredient. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpT9i1xWEiw The other room with the green plant should be before this one so that we would have low HP after it and could suicide quickly after activating the pressure plate. Might be hard/impossible to string all of this together in RTA, but it's a cool route for TAS. To get the upwarp, you have to run into the coffee and stop moving right when you're inbtween it and the wall, (which is a bit hard to get in RTA because it happens suddenly and quickly) then sidestep towards the wall and jump at the same time. You need to be angled a certain way for it to work, refer to the video.
Finally, clarence strat, pretty similar to snuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxdUu_d1DYY It's possible to get a quicker kill by jumping into the void and having clarence follow you into it. For this boss you don't have to wait for the talking to finish, unlike snuff. So it can be setup such that clarence dies in the void as the sceen is transitioning away from your death. It's quicker and also respawns you in the middle of the room, close to the loading zone. Might be a bit harder to do RTA so I showed the simple and consistent method in this video.
I then manually changed my position in the game's memory to get up the slab to see how it behaves with the game anyway, and it turns out that the game softlocks because the gate remains closed. We should therefore work towards perfecting a good route for this dungeon. In some posts before this one, I outlined how to perform an upwarp to get into the cage containing the green leaf and another way to upwarp back up after getting it. (which might be a bit sketchy for RTA, but definitely a good skip for TAS)
I get the feeling that it might be possible to "manipulate" the upwarp, so to speak, and end up on top of the cage rather than the 10,000 units high walls which would save a bit of time and make it viable for RTA!
The other 2 challenge rooms exhibit some interesting properties which I can't wait to play around with.
I personally think that looks nice, with the values on the side
We can indeed move the immobile mob with attacks or just running into it but there is indeed no viable corner for that, and only 2 of which would even be acceptable anyway since they have to be next to the 10,000 units walls so we can get on top of those. I actually wonder if damage boosting straight into a wall without any corner could be a thing? Might be a TAS only trick but that would certainly reiterate things a lot considering we'd no longer be restricted to corners, we could just upwarp where the hell we want, so long as there are nice perpendicular walls.
