If nothing else, it's a good psyche-out. You don't see the Fremen coming until it's too late (how is their spawning determined?) and the player doesn't expect the Sardaukar Inquisition the first time playing.
The Fremen spawning is determined in src/structure.c, line 883, which calls this function:
/* Find a random location to appear */
location = Map_FindLocationTile(4, HOUSE_INVALID);
Map_FindLocationTile is in scr/map.c. Relevant part:
case 4: /* Air */
ret = Tile_PackXY(mapInfo->minX + Tools_RandomLCG_Range(0, mapInfo->sizeX), mapInfo->minY + Tools_RandomLCG_Range(0, mapInfo->sizeY));
So it seems to mean Fremen appear on any free tile on the map.
Also, game on, bitches:
Turns out the internal clock is not internal - it does not adjust for the Game speed setting. I was playing on Fast, and tried on Fastest now and got 4 minutes. I noticed this when trying a pseudo-TAS on slowest game speed, and got 23 minutes even though I basically did the same thing as before.
Strategy: Get the enemy to shoot at his own structures as much as possible, spread out the damage on the quads so none of them get below half health and get reduced firing rate, and sacrifice the troopers to take over structures at the end. The unit lost was the harvester, which I used to drive over soldiers and divert attention. The trikes chase whichever unit comes in range first, and then you can park the Harvester around a corner so they shoot their own building. When it explodes, squish the soldiers and park around the next corner.
I guess we have a winner. That strat should also work for Atreides to a limited degree, but the Ordos have a construction yard in all variations of that mission. It probably won't for Ordos because Trooper rockets pass over structures and can snipe down the harvester.
So, per house strats are looking like this.
Harkonnen: Ignore Concrete, Starter Rush with Harvester as bait.
Atreides: Ignore Concrete, Harvesting Blitz
Ordos: Ignore Concrete, Harvesting Blitz
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Pokota wrote:
Nach wrote:
That's a windows launcher.
That's not a Windows application, it's a DOS one.
And it's not so much a launcher as a combination game manual / install program / launcher. This is the first CD game I ever got, and it's also the first application of any kind that I got that included an electronic manual instead of a printed one.
Pokota wrote:
Can you post up the copyright text that's on the CD? The whitetext that's near the outer edge of the label.
I just buried that CD with my 5.25 floppies last night, I'll see if I can go dig it out again.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I guess we have a winner. That strat should also work for Atreides to a limited degree, but the Ordos have a construction yard in all variations of that mission. It probably won't for Ordos because Trooper rockets pass over structures and can snipe down the harvester.
I think everyone has a Construction Yard in mission 2 in the version i have, 1.07. At least Atreides does when facing them on Harkonnen 2. I think Nach said the maps we have on wiki are from 1.00.
Troopers can shoot over structures, but the Ordos Harvester can mow them down, so it doesn't have to be an issue. Their Raider Trikes are significantly weaker than Harkonnen Quads, though. I checked in scenario.pak, and Harkonnen start with 0 credits in Ordos 2. (Atreides starts with 100 credits in Harkonnen 2.) So if you take down their Refinery before first harvest, they can't repair at all.
When you tested harvesting victory, did you play on Fastest game speed?
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Truncated wrote:
I think everyone has a Construction Yard in mission 2 in the version i have, 1.07. At least Atreides does when facing them on Harkonnen 2. I think Nach said the maps we have on wiki are from 1.00.
When you tested harvesting victory, did you play on Fastest game speed?
Yes.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Troopers can shoot over structures, but the Ordos Harvester can mow them down, so it doesn't have to be an issue. Their Raider Trikes are significantly weaker than Harkonnen Quads, though. I checked in scenario.pak, and Harkonnen start with 0 credits in Ordos 2. (Atreides starts with 100 credits in Harkonnen 2.) So if you take down their Refinery before first harvest, they can't repair at all.
I'll give this a shot, but I'm not sure I can pull it off (I play too defensively). Can we get someone else working on this in case I fall flat on my face?
I'll give this a shot, but I'm not sure I can pull it off (I play too defensively). Can we get someone else working on this in case I fall flat on my face?
I think it's possible to complete it this way, but almost certainly not faster than harvest victory due to weaker units. I can give it a try though.
BTW, what do you use to capture videos when playing?
I noticed something else which should probably be looked into. I was experimenting with the Saboteur by giving myself a Palace in Ordos 1. It has 10 HP, and normally my own soldiers should kill it in 4 hits (3+3+3+3 > 10). When shooting from some angles though, like directly west and east, the Saboteur dies in 10 hits, so each hit only does 1 damage. The Raider trikes also deal less damage from some angles, 2 instead of 5.
At first I thought this was maybe a peculiarity for the Saboteur. But it's the same for a Soldier attacking a Raider Trike or vice versa. Attacking from the north deals full damage according to our table on wiki, attacking from the west deals much less.
This seems very exploitable if we can figure out how it works.
Dxtory, mainly, as that's how I'm set up. I haven't tried dumping directly from dosbox yet.
Which version are you running? I don't remember bullets being screwy with east/west damage.
Dxtory, mainly, as that's how I'm set up. I haven't tried dumping directly from dosbox yet.
Which version are you running? I don't remember bullets being screwy with east/west damage.
Thanks. Tried recording a bit, but it's choppy and files get huge.
1.07, The Battle for Arrakis. I have never noticed any differences before either, but since all hitpoints and damages are unknown while playing the game normally, I wouldn't be surprised if it was there all along and I just didn't notice.
I have never noticed any differences before either, but since all hitpoints and damages are unknown while playing the game normally, I wouldn't be surprised if it was there all along and I just didn't notice.
Tested this some more. The effect is definitely real, and I think I know what causes it.
- The code for basically all combat damage is in scr/map.c, function Map_MakeExplosion. Even bullet attacks cause damage by creating an explosion. As you can see on line 431, damage gets shifted right (halved and rounded down) every unit of distance between impact and unit.
- The bullets visibly hit off center when attacking from west/east, but dead center when attacking from north/south.
- When playing at lower game speed, hits hit dead center and do full damage. It's probably that the bullet travels too far per game tic and passes target between two gametics.
Right shift also fits with the numbers I got. Trike 5->2.5->2, Soldier 3->1.5->2. I also tested Combat tank, and sure enough it does 25->12.5->12 when firing from the west.
Probably all units with bullet weapons (Soldiers, Troopers close range, Trike, Quad, Tank, Siege Tank and Devastator) are affected. Trooper long range was not affected when I tried it.
I'll try to make a map showing which firing positions give half damage.
Well, this is odd... I was testing tank vs soldier in the first level (after changing scenario.pak to get tanks) didn't build anything, but my credits stayed at 1000. Suddenly, "Your mission is complete!"
I knew that there was a limit of how fast you could beat a level, it doesn't start checking the winning conditions until 7200 gametics in (or something, from memory). But I thought it checked that you have >1000 credits, not >=1000 credits... and normally, there is a sort of upkeep which is based on your power usage, but minimum 1 credit lost every now and then. Guess this variable isn't set properly when saving and loading a game? Or it doesn't happen in the first level? Or this is a bug because I edited scenario.pak? Just guessing. I'll have to look into this.
This turned out to be 3 minutes, which is faster than Pokota's movie (at 4 minutes) where there is actual harvesting.
Can you recreate this
1) with a clean scenario.pak file?
2) in other versions of the game?
I just tried in 1.00 US with Atreides and the credit decay appears to have foiled it.
Can you recreate this
1) with a clean scenario.pak file?
2) in other versions of the game?
I just tried in 1.00 US with Atreides and the credit decay appears to have foiled it.
Tried it with a clean scenario.pak, with Atreides. Yes it's reproducible. Easy steps:
- Start Dune 2 and pick House Atreides.
- Almost directly when the first level starts, a credit should be lost.
- Options > Restart Scenario.
- As the level restarts, you shouldn't lose any credit. Wait until you win.
(I don't have any other version of the game.)
I think I found the reason for this in the source. It's a combination of these:
- Win condition isn't checked until 7200 gametics in: src/opendune.c, line 109
- Upkeep timer is applied every 10800 gametics: scr/house.c, line 71
- Upkeep timer isn't properly reset when loading/restarting a game: src/opendune.c, line 1346
- Win condition does not check if you go over quota, only that you match it: src/opendune.c, line 149
if (g_playerCredits >= g_playerHouse->creditsQuota)
The first time you start a level, the upkeep timer is properly set. The rest of the times, it isn't. So after you restart the level, the next upkeep cost is 10800 tics in the future, but checking if you won comes before that, after only 7200 tics. Saving and loading also works, if you can sneak a save before the first upkeep cost.
Tested on 1.00, 1.07 EU and US, and HitSquad 3.5" (Haven't tried Hitsquad CD yet but I don't see it failing there)
I haven't tried Ordos 2 military victory yet.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
What is this Hitsquad you keep mentioning?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
So "HitSquad" was the EU publisher? How is that different than just "EU" version?
Edit: Pokota above seems to be saying there are at least 3 different "EU" versions which are not differentiated by the version number.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Two and a half, really - the two hitsquad versions only appear to differ between whether the copy protection is there or not. The one with the copy protection is assumed to be the floppy disk release (1.07 Hitsquad, or Hitsquad 3.5") and the one without is assumed to be their CD release (Hitsquad CD). There shouldn't be any material difference between the EU versions outside of copy protection - the filesize of the executable differs between EU and Hitsquad 3.5" but that's about it. Dune Legacy (a remake project, though not as reverse-engineery as OpenDune) has a listing of the file differences.
I don't remember if we had the Floppy Disk version or a CD version when I was a kid.
Tested it now, got 8 minutes. It's possible at least, and could be faster than that. I lost one trike and had another below half health. But probably slower than just harvesting.
Positioning your units so you do full damage and enemies half helps a lot when fighting stronger units, such as Raider Trike versus Quad.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Pokota wrote:
Two and a half, really - the two hitsquad versions only appear to differ between whether the copy protection is there or not. The one with the copy protection is assumed to be the floppy disk release (1.07 Hitsquad, or Hitsquad 3.5") and the one without is assumed to be their CD release (Hitsquad CD).
CD writers weren't on the market till several years after Dune 2's release, and even then were out of reach price-wise from consumers till 1999 or so. Making the ability to copy CD's during Dune 2's release and several years after not possible.
The CD launch itself checks that its contents are in the root directory of the drive that its on, and that there's another drive on the system which isn't a floppy disk. This makes running the contents of the CD on a hard drive unlikely unless you have multiple partitions that you're willing to use for this or you know how to work the DOS subst command. Both of which no one but the most savvy of DOS users would know how to accomplish, and therefore no copy protection is needed for a CD release.
The contents of the CD also contain files too large to fit on a floppy even with compression. So unless you know how to use PKZip with disk split/spanning you won't be able to copy the contents to floppies. Again something outside the realm of the abilities of your average DOS user.
Perhaps Westwood felt this was enough to not require copy protection on their CD release as average users wouldn't be able to duplicate the install media or its contents in any way. However, even a less advanced user could copy the installed on HD directory to multiple floppies and reassemble on the target machine, as none of the files there are too large. Since the CD uses its own loader for launching the game, maybe Westwood figured no one would ever be looking to play the game directly from the installed directory, and hence no copy protection for a CD release is necessary.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Played some more Ordos just for fun. Man, they really get the short end of the stick... there was more disadvantages than I remembered:
- They have to buy missile tanks from the Starport instead of building them, but they don't show up there until the mission after the enemy gets missile tanks, so you have to fight one mission at a severe range disadvantage.
- They can build Siege tanks, but they also show up a mission late, so you're forced to fight them in one mission with just Combat tanks.
Pokota wrote:
First time using JPC-rr. I keep expecting it to send my keyboard/mouse inputs from the keyboard/mouse and I know that's not going to be correct but it still took me over a minute just to get to the Geidi Prime image.
How is this going? Did you manage to record the first mission? Does it sync on playback? Does sound work?
The range of missile projectiles changes depending on direction of fire and angle the unit is at. There are cases where identical unit A can fire on unit B but not B upon A because the extra distance is only allowed upwards/leftwards but not downwards/rightwards. This is because attack distance calculations are performed on the origin point of a unit, its top left corner, instead of its center. The hit box of a unit however appears to be its entire bounding square.
I haven't found this to be the case for units. When I tested full/half damage of trikes, tanks and devastators, their range was the same regardless of direction.
However, structures (turrets) suffer from this bug. This is also evident in the source, src/script/structure.c, line 321:
321 /* ENHANCEMENT -- The original code calculated distances from the top-left corner of the structure. */
322 if (g_dune2_enhanced) {
323 position = Tile_Center(s->o.position);
324 } else {
325 position = s->o.position;
326 }
It's possible this bug originally affected units too, and was fixed in 1.07. (The unofficial changes list doesn't mention it though.) Can someone with 1.00 test if there is any case where units cannot shoot as far down/right as up/left?
User btl posted a WIP in the WIP thread 8-9 months ago, but it went unanswered. :( I didn't see it until now. He then created an updated version which fixed a mistake in level 1, and finished level 2:
Link to video
So, perhaps it's already abandoned, but to give some feedback on this:
- The sound card is not properly set up and Dune 2 falls back to midi soundeffects. This probably needs a redo to fix.
All the other stuff is minor timesavers:
- I think you can move your units, at least quick ones like quads, between their attacks. This means they have to move less distance to attack their next target when the current one dies.
- It doesn't seem like the positioning tricks are used, to deal 100% damage and receive 50% damage. For example at 3:30, two Harkonnen Quads are dealing half damage and one is dealing full damage. I think positioning the enemy unit outside the screen contributes a lot less.
- The troopers seem to be positioned at a distance on purpose, to get the missile attack rather than the bullet attack. But the bullet attack is actually 25% stronger, so this gives less damage rather than more.
- Attacking head-on means you reach the enemy base a bit faster, but you cannot draw advantage of tricking the enemy to attack his own buildings.
- The stage with less starting and enemy units is picked, to take over the refinery and win by passing the spice quota, like the WR speedrun. I wouldn't rule out that that complete military victory on one of the other stages is faster under TAS conditions.
Turns out the internal clock is not internal - it does not adjust for the Game speed setting. I was playing on Fast, and tried on Fastest now and got 4 minutes. I noticed this when trying a pseudo-TAS on slowest game speed, and got 23 minutes even though I basically did the same thing as before.
Strategy: Get the enemy to shoot at his own structures as much as possible, spread out the damage on the quads so none of them get below half health and get reduced firing rate, and sacrifice the troopers to take over structures at the end. The unit lost was the harvester, which I used to drive over soldiers and divert attention. The trikes chase whichever unit comes in range first, and then you can park the Harvester around a corner so they shoot their own building. When it explodes, squish the soldiers and park around the next corner.
