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Posted: 2/21/2005 6:18 PM
Post subject: Problems with Terranigma recording
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Saturn
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
I want to make a 100% time-attack walkthrough of Terranigma on Snes9x 1.43 WIP1 Emulator. But the problem is Terranigma exists to my knowledge only in PAL not on NTSC. I have started to record this game from reset but as many times I tried eveything to do (rerecords, slowdown variations and so on) to movie got desync after some seconds (sometimes even before entering the player name) IF I used the turbo mode to watch (test) it. On normal game speed the movie was ok for the first 2-3 minutes till I cancelled the recording (don't recorded more because of this problem), but why it gets on turbo mode (Tab-Button) out of sync. Secondly I noticed that the original emulated frame time on "Auto Frame Rate" is 20 20ms NOT 17ms like in all NTSC games. Is this the cause the movie get out of sync on turbo mode? If someone could help me or suggest a solution to this problem I would be very thankful since I'm a Terranigma master and I really want to make a great movie of one of the best games on SNES for you guys to watch.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 2/21/2005 7:09 PM
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Squ4ll-
Joined: 11/28/2004
Posts: 138
Have you tried using this version? http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1816
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Posted: 2/21/2005 8:56 PM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1301)
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Posts: 2687
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There is a patch that makes the game NTSC but I'm guessing that's not allowed. It's normal for the frame rate of PAL games to be lower (50 fps rather than 60, I think). Anyway, try using the emulator version Squ4ll- linked to, and choose the following settings when you go to record: WIP1 timing ON, Left+Right/Up+Down OFF, Volume Height Envelope Reading OFF, Fake Mute desync workaround ON, Sync Sound samples ON. That way it should record without desyncs, but there's a chance it will mess up the sound so let us know if that happens.
Posted: 2/21/2005 9:16 PM
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Boco
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
If you want NTSC, use the Japanese game (Tenchi Souzou).
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Posted: 2/22/2005 12:18 AM
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Burning_Death
Former player
Joined: 7/16/2004
Posts: 108
Location: Germany, Bremen
I've also tried thousand ways of recording a movie, but ...no luck :( . Even with the new emulator release.
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Posted: 2/22/2005 12:58 AM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1301)
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Hmm, I didn't realize this game also had desync problems. Guess I'll try it out sometime. From Saturn's description it sounds like the same sound desync problem that Out of this World had, where the movie plays back differently sometimes (especially if you fast-forward it), in which case fake mute should fix it...
Posted: 2/22/2005 5:56 AM
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nitsuja
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Interesting, this is a different problem. Using turbo mode actually makes the title screen take more frames. I'm guessing that Snes9x has a problem with turbo mode of PAL games (although I haven't tested Tenchi Souzou yet to confirm it doesn't also happen there). If you want to do a run of Terranigma (PAL), I think the only option right now is to just not use turbo mode, since it stays in sync just fine when it isn't used. (Turbo mode is not necessary for recording movies so that shouldn't be a problem.) I don't know if a 100% run would be a good idea though - that's a lot of time spent collecting worthless MagiRocks... But I would like to see a run of this game, I think it would look very smooth if done right. The only major obstacle is the leveling system, because some of the bosses take a really long time to kill if you aren't at a high enough level.
Posted: 2/22/2005 11:31 AM
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Saturn
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
thanks nitsuja, I tested the recording on the japanese version (Tenchi Souzou) and it was the same error if turbo is activated. So its not the case of Pal system. I also tested your recommended setting but as you said it's the same. And about watching without turbo: Who want to watch a 3-4 hours movie without turbo??? For example after you complete a tower in underworld and there is a 2 min szenario after every tower you can't do anything... very sad thing without a solution until this bug is fixed... and this to a top 5 game on snes...
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 2/22/2005 1:26 PM
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AdmiralJonB
Joined: 6/20/2004
Posts: 292
Location: United Kingdom
Are you the same Saturn that did the Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 6 and Terranigma? If you are then I'm a fan of yours! If you get this working correctly, good luck! I'm sure it'll turn out great (If it is the same person)!
Posted: 2/22/2005 4:44 PM
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Saturn
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Yes I am the same Saturn :-), if you wanna have a proof, then download any movie of me on www.zophar.net/zsnes/zmv and send a Email to the adress added in the readme.txt of the movies-files (like Chrono Trigger FF6 SD3 or so on) and I will reply you that I am on Nesvideos Forum.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 2/22/2005 8:05 PM
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georgexi
Player (80)
Joined: 7/22/2004
Posts: 63
Location: USA
i've never heard of this game before so i looked it up. looks like a chrono-trigger type rpg. how long do you think it would take you to finish this game? so far it looks like a long rpg and usually time-attack movies dont last more than an hour. but then again people are trying to time-attack secret of mana and zelda 3.. good luck :)
Posted: 2/22/2005 10:40 PM
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Saturn
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
At least 3 hours if you do pure time attack I guess, but if doing like my style on 100% of all collected, all sidequests done etc. then it will be 3,5 till 4 hours or so. Remember you can save very much time compared to chrono trigger in battles since you can hit the enemies directly and don't have to wait until the attack-gauge loads. this saves about 10% of the game time in my opinion. If you never played Terranigma through I strongly recommend it, since for me it is on the same level with chrono trigger and final fantasy 6, the story is awesome (resurrecting the world). Its just not that popular in america since it was only released in japan and europe.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 2/23/2005 2:54 AM
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nitsuja
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By the way, you can still sort-of use Turbo mode -- set the turbo frame skip to 1 and that makes it go at about 200% speed, which is not fast enough to cause it to desync. (It's better than nothing.) I'm not sure why this game behaves differently when it's emulated too quickly. I think it's sound-related (yet again), especially because if I set the playback rate to 0 (No Sound) the game pauses indefinitely before the title screen until I turn the sound back on.
Posted: 2/28/2005 7:13 PM
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Tyskland
Joined: 8/6/2004
Posts: 8
i hope it works out for you.. prolly my favourite snes game :)
Posted: 3/4/2005 3:15 PM
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Burning_Death
Former player
Joined: 7/16/2004
Posts: 108
Location: Germany, Bremen
Hi, none of the current methods work to stop desync! Even at normal speed, disabled sound or recording after the intro the game keep desync again for me at least at the point where you enter the secret blue door after about 3min playtime. So it's not only the intro or version which causes desync. Btw. Saturn, great to meet you here! I watched your 14h run of Terranigma some months/years ago :) .
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Posted: 3/4/2005 3:55 PM
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Saturn
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
thats exactly the problem I got to, before entering the blue door it gets desync... My 1st version of Terranigma (2002) was not 14 but 9:39 hours, I guess you took the time from another movie and changed it with Terranigma. And the 2nd version (recorded 2 years later with more experience) was improved to even 8:42 or so of course for 100% items included. This run is not on zophar and only available on my current homepage www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies We have to wait if someone can fix this desync problem in snes9x so that people can record a tool featured terranigma run to improve the game time again. If someone can report this bug to the snes9x programmers that would be very helpfull, guess one or another of them read it anyway here. PS: Thank you Burning Death
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 3/5/2005 5:32 PM
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Burning_Death
Former player
Joined: 7/16/2004
Posts: 108
Location: Germany, Bremen
Oh yes, I could be wrong with the time.... but you know that the ingame timer doesn't include all things going on in Terranigma and 1:00 minute is about 1:07 minute or so in realtime if I remember correctly. Nitsuja who replied to the desync problems in this topic is one of the programmers of the SNES9x, so hopefully he finds a solution to re-record Terranigma. Then I would maybe go for a fast as possible or lowest level to end boss speed run. I haven't watched your newest Terranigma run yet but have you used the glitch where you could get two magic pins from the mermaids instead of one? If you stand right in the middle of them you'll talk to both of them and also get two magic pins.
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Posted: 3/6/2005 12:14 AM
(Edited: 3/6/2005 8:22 PM)
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Saturn
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
yeah, thats exactly the main reason why I made a 2nd version, because I didn't used the 2 water pin glitch. Of course I used it in the 2nd version and got on this way 6 magirocks more than before. But overall I was in every stage better too (correct level for every situation, not to high for wasting time to level up and not to low for wasting time in beating hard bosses). EDIT: sorry I forgot about the ingame time, yes I knew that its not counting like the realtime, for example if you enter a new room the time stops as long as the screen is black to change the room.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 3/6/2005 4:24 AM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1301)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
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Burning Death wrote:
Nitsuja who replied to the desync problems in this topic is one of the programmers of the SNES9x
Actually, no, I'm just a programmer capable of modifying some parts of Snes9x. About Terranigma, I haven't tested this further than getting to the box, but so far the game never desyncs for me unless I use fast-forward or set the speed really high. Also, I've noticed that if you turn the sound off (set playback rate to No Sound, but leave sound emulation on) it doesn't desync even with fast-forward. Seems like the exact same problem that "Fake Mute" fixes, except for some reason fake mute doesn't work for this game.
Posted: 3/10/2005 10:02 PM
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nitsuja
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Posts: 2687
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Fixed the problem. The Fake Mute workaround should have fixed it, but that workaround was incomplete. Made a change in apu.cpp to return as if channel state is silent, and now there are no longer desync problems even when using fast-forward. (Tested past tower 1 with zero desyncs.) This may possibly fix some other games besides Terranigma but I don't know what.
Posted: 3/10/2005 11:03 PM
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Saturn
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
wow, great news, Im happy to hear that but now I have started Secret of Evermore and I will complete it, but then I will definitely do Terranigma on 100%.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 3/11/2005 7:37 AM
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AdmiralJonB
Joined: 6/20/2004
Posts: 292
Location: United Kingdom
Good Luck! I'm sure it will be great!
Posted: 3/13/2005 5:00 AM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1301)
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Posts: 2687
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Oh, well I'm interested in seeing both runs so that's ok. But, I wonder, how would a minimalist Terranigma run go? I seem to recall some of the bosses taking a long time to kill unless you're leveled up enough, but on the other hand I think leveling up was a really slow process too, so maybe low-level is the faster way to go. (Fortunately, leveling is a choice, unlike Crystalis.) And, are there any situations where magirocks/spells would be worth the time it takes to get and use them, or anything else that needs to be bought in the game?
Posted: 3/14/2005 4:12 PM
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Saturn
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
nitsuja wrote:
Oh, well I'm interested in seeing both runs so that's ok. But, I wonder, how would a minimalist Terranigma run go? I seem to recall some of the bosses taking a long time to kill unless you're leveled up enough, but on the other hand I think leveling up was a really slow process too, so maybe low-level is the faster way to go.
Definitely Wrong! I did this experience myself and the fact is if your level is not high enough because you skip to beat the weak enemies in earliy parts of the game you will have big problems even against normal enemies in later parts of the game and since they give more experience so that you can level up faster you will not be able to defeat them fast enough so that the time is worth for them to kill. Lets say you skip ALL enemies and don't level up at all then at least in the mermaid tower (just before you get a ship of a seaman) you will be caught and trapped since to beat the purple fish boss you need strong hits because he runs away after every single hit and you have to wait about 10-20 sec for the next hit you can do to him, and if you damage him to 2-3 HP each time of his more than 150 you can calculate yourself how many time you will lose. The leveling up is a MUST in Terranigma if you don't do that you lose much more time in the result, my promise. Just see my 100% speed run on www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/zsnesmovies.htm for a perfect example for leveling up to the best times.
nitsuja wrote:
(Fortunately, leveling is a choice, unlike Crystalis.) And, are there any situations where magirocks/spells would be worth the time it takes to get and use them, or anything else that needs to be bought in the game?
No collecting magirocks or use magic definitely don't help to make the run faster in one situation a bone pin is usefull (in Norfest Forest to escape from Storkolm quickly) but this needs only 1 magirock which you will have anyway. But for a 100% run you have to find all.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 3/14/2005 8:16 PM
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caitsith2
He/Him
Player (47)
Joined: 3/26/2004
Posts: 194
Definitely can't wait to see you do that snes9x version, because I am one of those obsessed enough with the sound. I am not able to watch the zsnes version with sound (Windows XP), and I can't stand watching movies without the sound.
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