Memory
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The turning point thing seems very strange with Crazy Bear and potentially other vehicles. I decided to use the poke test and then continue holding a and left and see about what point it can't turn past when it regains control. That worked for most vehicles up until crazy bear. When I did the initial poke I was unable to turn until the difference was less than 14272. I then became able to turn again, but this time I didn't stop being able to turn. I still lost speed but I was still able to change facing even to really high differences between momentum and facing. I think certain really slippery vehicles are like that in this game where they'll keep turning past their turn point but lose speed. EDIT: I did a normal turn and it behaves normally I'm extremely confused. EDIT2: I think it's just something weird with how the poke test works. I may need to do it slightly below the turning point and then go up to it. EDIT3: Basically finished with stat gathering aside from turning allowances of ships greater than 90 degrees but since there are so many and it really doesn't matter I'm not gonna bother right now.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Experimented with a healing pad. Golden Fox restored 40 per frame, Fire Stingray got back at nearly twice the rate, at 76. There's probably numbers for friction on various terrain (rail, dirt), and all that mess. Well aware I haven't tabled that for MV. Also, double-check the Spd3 value for Golden Fox. 1552 looks right. I glanced over for other suspicious numbers and nothing else looked seriously off. I understand not bothering with very high turning allowance. You're not going to drive past 90 degrees. After experimenting a bit with the tweaking slider, it appears the boost top speed goes down for going on the top speed half of the slider, but remains as good as middle selection for going on the acceleration half. The Side Attacks are very fast in their initial frames. It also has the drawback of applying friction when doing so, looks like -16 speed per frame, but this doesn't disable acceleration. Makes me think that Side Attack spam is best done with a machine that gets good acceleration for its third gear. I've tweaked max acceleration for Golden Fox and got 13, which means we still slow down over time. Then again, there are boosts after the first lap, which all machines have access to.
Memory
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Oops, nice catch on Golden Fox. Good to know about the friction applied from side attacks. It looks like Twin Noritta and Night Thunder are also suitable candidates for side attack spam in that regard, also having 13 accel in Spd3 at max accel and have great boosts. All 3 of the ships mentioned are used by the time attack community, especially night thunder which is used for most records. Don't know if it would be as good for TAS though. EDIT: Night Thunder has the best body of the bunch as well so it has potential there as well.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Apparently, boost cost is a simple formula: Cost = MaxBody * BoostTime / 1200 Basically, you have 20 seconds of boost from full power, no matter the machine. Of course, the variance in boost times and the fact you can't actually do a fractional boost means you probably aren't getting exactly 20 seconds out of it. As for how viable it is to keep boosting, that depends on how quick we recover on the repair pads and how convenient their locations. I can see why Night Thunder is frequently on the leaderboards. That low Grip is great for drifts. We know all about facing and momentum at this point, and the interaction of side motion on your true speed. Being able to pretty readily get a strong difference between facing and momentum means better use of drifts or side attacks.
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Well, I think I found the turning tolerance stat (edited script post). Let me know how well you agree with the guess. We still have a few unknowns in that list to work through. I've taken a look at the jump stat, and I think the internal value is the best one to use. It appears to be the initial upward velocity you get from jump plates, which is probably the best thing to be using. I do like the table. Think I should get some stats transferred into the Game Resources?
Memory
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FatRatKnight wrote:
Well, I think I found the turning tolerance stat (edited script post). Let me know how well you agree with the guess. We still have a few unknowns in that list to work through. I've taken a look at the jump stat, and I think the internal value is the best one to use. It appears to be the initial upward velocity you get from jump plates, which is probably the best thing to be using. I do like the table. Think I should get some stats transferred into the Game Resources?
That definitely appears to be the turning tolerance stat, nice find! Looks like black bull's was slightly off in my table but it was kind of hard to tell anyways. Sure go ahead when it comes to putting stats in Game Resources. EDIT: Added all remaining turning allowances and fixed black bull's.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Started the page: Wiki: GameResources/GBx/FZeroGPLegend (the right page this time) I shifted the boost cost under the BT stat, leaving room for how quickly you heal on those healing pads. Apparently, in MV, it was just a constant 20. Here, it depends on the machine. Random thought of the moment. Your list has Black Bull with more balance than steering. Judging from what little I saw of speedruns, this looks basically accurate. This means no capacity for drift turns. I suppose its Blast Turn stat is pointless if you don't collide with anything.
Memory
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When I was looking into black bull's turning tolerance I took another look at the list because the difference between facing and momentum was constantly shrinking and saw that. It can basically only drift on ice and that's also the only place where blast turns would come into play probably.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Memory
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After some initial testing, it might be better to focus on ships with great Spd2 stats rather than Spd3 stats. If you decide to do side attack cancel chains at the start of the track, you're going to be already losing speed after the rocket start so you're probably going to be mostly in Spd2 rather than Spd3. If that is the case, one of the best candidates would probably be Sonic Phantom. Nothing else particularly stands out to me. EDIT: I might also just be losing more speed than I should by doing it less than optimally. EDIT2: I'll probably return to MV for a while and tackle this again later.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I still believe a high Spd3 acceleration will be desired on the times you're navigating the track rather than side attack cancels on the rail. I've taken a quick look at the rails, and they seem to make you lose speed pretty badly. Optimal pattern of a right-side rail cancel is one or two frames off the rail, and one frame on the rail. So at best, you're spending two frames with "normal" acceleration (-16 due to Side Attack) and one frame where you're slowed by being on the rail. If you have boost going, you'd power through the mess without issue (as seen in my quick TAS). Without boosts, your speed will decline rather readily. I keep wanting to push the virtues of reading hexadecimal. It will give a nice, clear, thousands-place boundary on the horizontal or vertical parts of the tracks. I know I most definitely wanted the hexadecimal display in my quick TAS, but that's me. It's also not exactly trivial to know how to tweak your momentum just right. Starting the chain properly is probably the difficult part, as you're not in the ideal position to start with. Continuing it with the boosts I had wasn't too hard, I just had to figure out how to change my facing to tweak the position perfectly. Without boosts, you're going to be constantly losing speed keeping up with the side attacks, and I don't know how much it is worth. On a side note, taking the best possible LR drift (464) on the best possible speed (yellow arrow, under 2560), and doing this while driving at 90 degrees, your true speed is around 3000, or 1500 km/h. My earlier calculation with boosted Dragon Bird on rails is around 1530 km/h, so these side attacks definitely work somewhere. The gain is attractive, I'll say that much, but I never did take a look at it without boosts. The average of the first three frames of the side attack is 1904. Boost-free, you're going to trash your speed quickly, so give yourself 1200 internal speed for the average, and since you more or less have to drive straight, we've got the worst angle we can use, so we end up averaging 2250. Crazy Bear has some crazy drifts it can do, so let's take the 1944 top speed and apply the 464 LR drift at 45 degrees. The average here is 2295. Note that Crazy Bear doesn't have to recover speed afterward since we're just doing a normal LR drift, rather than rail-canceled side attacks which drops your speed. Starting to look like these side attacks should be used sparingly on the first lap and also sparingly whenever you couldn't fit in more boosts in later laps. Based on these numbers I'm analyzing, it does seem like you'd want to only use them when the alternative is hitting max speed and no longer accelerating. An 8 for 4th gear acceleration would let you take the side attack loss a lot more easily. At least Maximum Velocity doesn't have side attacks, so you can avoid optimizing this problem over there.
Memory
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FatRatKnight wrote:
I suppose the disadvantage with L+R for Side Attack is that you need steering to initiate Side Attack. Between left or right, the game prioritizes right. This means you can press left+right to avoid steering that frame and get a side attack to the right. Right side rails have a clear optimal pattern I can do. Left side rails, unfortunately, has only one possible control for the frame to go left, as even if you held right for a few frames before L+R, it will still trigger as a right Side Attack.
I have discovered that this is actually not the case. If you hold right AND r prior to pressing Left + Right and l+r you will do a left side attack. You can hold right for multiple frames or only one frame and multiple frames of left + right doesn't matter. You just need to have initially started holding right and r on the same frame otherwise you don't side attack at all. The following are sets of inputs that all generate left side-attacks
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
MarbleousDave
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