Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
I haven't said so before, but I am a fan of this game too. :) But I don't know much about this game other than what I vaguely remember from the last time I played through it, which was awhile ago. I would LOVE to see a complete run of this game! Thank you for working on it.
Wow, I was pleasantly surprised at the quick reply. This is great news! And you have good answers. ;) I realized I was confusing myself and some of the comments I made were meant for a console run, whoops.
First off, when I got 12 minutes, that was without save states, so it was supposed to be like a console concept demo. I didn't fight any unnecessary fights except for the frog right in front of the Big Catfish, to get to level 5. I got the Insect Crush because conventional wisdom is that you would. I didn't get the Catfish Jewel, although even in a console run, you would want to redo that segment until you got it. I used Boomerangs on basically everyone: 2 to kill the Lizard Man, 4 to kill Big Catfish, and 1 for each fight with multiple regular guys.
For a TAS, I'm don't think you'd want the Insect Crush either, but I'm not 100% sure. Also, I agree you would skip Stronger, unlike what a console run would have to do I imagine. Even if you engage minimal battles, Boomerangs are useful to kill all the multiple regular enemy fights quickly, and you'll need them at lower levels vs the early bosses.
Ah, of course Tia attacking was manipulation. The switching positions is better, yes.
quietkane wrote:
Dragondarch is going to have his work cut out for him trying to run this game. The controls are very imprecise, and the fact that he can't efficiently avoid battles is going to hurt a lot. I have sincere doubts that this game is doable within 10 hours without tool-assistance. Good luck to him, though.
(and I've forgotten whether SDA goes by in-game clock or not. If they do, then he needs to spend time in the Ancient Cave. Time spent in the AC doesn't count for the main game's clock.)
Actually, getting under the 7 hour SDA soft limit won't pose any difficulty, but Maxim's fast movement and trying to optimize the paths/puzzles will.
The guy who I said wasn't doing a very good job (27 mins compared to my 12 mins to get Tia and save), completed his test run with 6:37 at the post game timer. I forgot what you estimated earlier for a TAS, but my (I think it's conservative enough) guess for a console run of Lufia 2 would be between 4 and 5 hours. I've been working with DTK on his 4 Lufia 1 test runs and he has that down to 5:21. I think the real version will be close to 5 hours, and I'm pretty sure that Lufia 1 would take longer than 2, so there goes. ;)
SDA uses real time from gaining control after starting a new game, to final hit against the last boss. AC is a definite "no" for a console run. Ah, this might make you jealous. =p
Oh yes, maybe I haven't told you, but after Dragondarch does his Lufia 2 run, I am going to do a Gift mode console run of the AC from scratch. =) Actually, that smile might disappear after I try it and pull all my hair out from the randomness.
This game looks very difficult to run, but I gotta ask: what the hell was that at the tower east of Tanbel, before getting Guy? I also notice you get too many unnecessary chests. I'm sure there are strategies to get around not using their IP attacks.
I'm guessing that without specific IP attacks, bosses and/or specific enemies would just take too long without them.
For example, you'd actually save more time going to a different location to get equipment for their IP attacks and then going back to fight that boss than just going straight to the boss.
Just an idea.
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Enhasa wrote:
First off, when I got 12 minutes, that was without save states, so it was supposed to be like a console concept demo. I didn't fight any unnecessary fights except for the frog right in front of the Big Catfish, to get to level 5. I got the Insect Crush because conventional wisdom is that you would. I didn't get the Catfish Jewel, although even in a console run, you would want to redo that segment until you got it. I used Boomerangs on basically everyone: 2 to kill the Lizard Man, 4 to kill Big Catfish, and 1 for each fight with multiple regular guys.
For a TAS, I'm don't think you'd want the Insect Crush either, but I'm not 100% sure. Also, I agree you would skip Stronger, unlike what a console run would have to do I imagine. Even if you engage minimal battles, Boomerangs are useful to kill all the multiple regular enemy fights quickly, and you'll need them at lower levels vs the early bosses.
Yeah, extra boomerangs for the fights leading to the Insect Crush would be good. Like I said, I'll have to wait and see how that's going to work out.
As for picking up the Insect Crush, its IP helps manipulate things until I pick up a better weapon for Maxim, and it's the weapon of choice for the Ruby Cave's Tarantula. As such, it may actually save time with the run I've currently got. (unlikely, but possible.) But like I said, we'll just have to wait and see.
Enhasa wrote:
Ah, of course Tia attacking was manipulation. The switching positions is better, yes.
quietkane wrote:
Dragondarch is going to have his work cut out for him trying to run this game. The controls are very imprecise, and the fact that he can't efficiently avoid battles is going to hurt a lot. I have sincere doubts that this game is doable within 10 hours without tool-assistance. Good luck to him, though.
(and I've forgotten whether SDA goes by in-game clock or not. If they do, then he needs to spend time in the Ancient Cave. Time spent in the AC doesn't count for the main game's clock.)
Actually, getting under the 7 hour SDA soft limit won't pose any difficulty, but Maxim's fast movement and trying to optimize the paths/puzzles will.
The guy who I said wasn't doing a very good job (27 mins compared to my 12 mins to get Tia and save), completed his test run with 6:37 at the post game timer. I forgot what you estimated earlier for a TAS, but my (I think it's conservative enough) guess for a console run of Lufia 2 would be between 4 and 5 hours. I've been working with DTK on his 4 Lufia 1 test runs and he has that down to 5:21. I think the real version will be close to 5 hours, and I'm pretty sure that Lufia 1 would take longer than 2, so there goes. ;)
Hrmmm. If he got it in less than 7 hours, then he's a much more patient man than I am. I can't count the number of times I've run into a wall because the timing on the controls has such a small frame of opportunity to stop running. Not to mention running into enemies.
My current estimate for finishing this run is 5 hours, give or take 10 minutes. The revised run is probably going to be more like 4.5 hours.
Enhasa wrote:
SDA uses real time from gaining control after starting a new game, to final hit against the last boss. AC is a definite "no" for a console run. Ah, this might make you jealous. =p
Yeah, definite jealousy, there. It is beyond the realm of human possibility to truly optimize the AC. I'm just hoping that the final run will have a good enough run of it. (My current goal is to get 3 weapons and a Silver Eye and Gold Eye and then providence out in less than 10 minutes. Actual time is probably going to be 4-5 minutes, and the chests I pick up are unlikely to include both jewels, but I can probably get 3 weapons and one of the Eyes.)
Enhasa wrote:
Oh yes, maybe I haven't told you, but after Dragondarch does his Lufia 2 run, I am going to do a Gift mode console run of the AC from scratch. =) Actually, that smile might disappear after I try it and pull all my hair out from the randomness.
A console run probably won't be that bad, since you aren't going to have the pressure to make it perfect. I'd say it wouldn't take more than 6 or 7 tries overall to get a good random placement for the cave, and you probably won't need more than one equipment-collecting run before you can take the whole thing. The aggravating part about a console run is that, like I said, it's hard to efficiently avoid enemies, and the Dragons on the lower levels are going to seriously scare you.
Erim wrote:
This game looks very difficult to run, but I gotta ask: what the hell was that at the tower east of Tanbel, before getting Guy? I also notice you get too many unnecessary chests. I'm sure there are strategies to get around not using their IP attacks.
I've already explained why I did the Tanbel Tower twice. As I said then, my initial estimate of how long the second run would take was much lower than the actual time was. In all likelihood, the revised run won't do that.
Some of the "unecessary chests" you're complaining about save a lot more time than they take; it's just unclear how they save time if you haven't tried manipulating this game. (The Fire Ring is a good example of this. As I said, Maxim needed an alternate attack for that battle.) The only chests I can think of off-hand which don't save time are the Tanbel Tower chests, the Horse Rock in the Alunze West Cave, and the chests across the lava in the Ruby Apple Cave. (And actually, those chests across the lava don't waste nearly as much time as they seem to, since the Aqua Whip plays an important role in a later battle.)
Also, interestingly enough, I missed an uncessary chest which would have saved a lot of time: the Undead Ring. I hadn't realized that Gades was weak to Light attacks, so I didn't pick it up. (The Undead Ring makes your attacks do Light damage.) The revised run will be picking that up, and as such the Gades battle will take much less time.
Sorry I don't have a WIP for you. I'm having to re-take one my finals on Tuesday, and I really need to study for it. (So why am I posting here instead of studying? Well, I needed to get on the internet to look something up anyway, and I figured I'd take a study break while I was here.)
Hrmmm. If he got it in less than 7 hours, then he's a much more patient man than I am. I can't count the number of times I've run into a wall because the timing on the controls has such a small frame of opportunity to stop running. Not to mention running into enemies.
My current estimate for finishing this run is 5 hours, give or take 10 minutes. The revised run is probably going to be more like 4.5 hours.
I dunno, I got the feeling that guy was blazing through it as a WIP. He did the whole thing in just a couple days I think, and to be quite honest, the decisions he made that he posted were very baffling (picking up the speed ring, doing the world's most difficult puzzle, things like that). Well, with your TAS estimate, I suppose I will revise my console estimate to 5 hours then. ;)
quietkane wrote:
Yeah, definite jealousy, there. It is beyond the realm of human possibility to truly optimize the AC. I'm just hoping that the final run will have a good enough run of it. (My current goal is to get 3 weapons and a Silver Eye and Gold Eye and then providence out in less than 10 minutes. Actual time is probably going to be 4-5 minutes, and the chests I pick up are unlikely to include both jewels, but I can probably get 3 weapons and one of the Eyes.)
That sounds like a good thing to shoot for.
quietkane wrote:
A console run probably won't be that bad, since you aren't going to have the pressure to make it perfect. I'd say it wouldn't take more than 6 or 7 tries overall to get a good random placement for the cave, and you probably won't need more than one equipment-collecting run before you can take the whole thing. The aggravating part about a console run is that, like I said, it's hard to efficiently avoid enemies, and the Dragons on the lower levels are going to seriously scare you.
No, trust me, it's going to be a total pain, and it'll take a lot more than 6 or 7 tries (probably 100-200 at least), although most of the tries are going to be on the shorter side since after getting suboptimal luck early, it's time to reset. Oh, and since it's from start of gift mode in the title screen (i.e. without carrying anything in), I would do this in one pass. Any more would waste time of course. Maybe you were thinking it would be easier if I would be carrying equipment in.
quietkane wrote:
Sorry I don't have a WIP for you. I'm having to re-take one my finals on Tuesday, and I really need to study for it. (So why am I posting here instead of studying? Well, I needed to get on the internet to look something up anyway, and I figured I'd take a study break while I was here.)
Wow, a retake would be completely demoralizing. I have a long story from last week that I can sum up as: I misremembered my final exam time (!) and ended up going over to the professor's house to take it later that day. Of course I would have been extremely upset if I weren't allowed to take it at all, but even if I were allowed to take it say the following week, I would have still been pissed off since it would still be just hanging there.
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Enhasa wrote:
No, trust me, it's going to be a total pain, and it'll take a lot more than 6 or 7 tries (probably 100-200 at least), although most of the tries are going to be on the shorter side since after getting suboptimal luck early, it's time to reset. Oh, and since it's from start of gift mode in the title screen (i.e. without carrying anything in), I would do this in one pass. Any more would waste time of course. Maybe you were thinking it would be easier if I would be carrying equipment in.
I was thinking the best way to do it would be to make one shallow pass to pick up something (any weapon) worth carrying into for the second, full run. Each run probably wouldn't need more than 6 or 7 passes to find something acceptable, although I agree that if you want something that's "ideal" you'd need upwards of 100 runs.
If you want to try it all in one run, it'll take more than that.
Enhasa wrote:
Wow, a retake would be completely demoralizing. I have a long story from last week that I can sum up as: I misremembered my final exam time (!) and ended up going over to the professor's house to take it later that day. Of course I would have been extremely upset if I weren't allowed to take it at all, but even if I were allowed to take it say the following week, I would have still been pissed off since it would still be just hanging there.
Actually, your story isn't too far off from mine. I'm not really sure I did any better the second time, but that's more because of the way that professor gives tests than anything else. Anyway, it's in the past, now.
So there are two different ways to get the Sizzle Sword on B2, but neither of those leads to a B3 with a blue chest. This means there are some... 1000 or so possible B4's I need to check. Of course, that's just a ballpark figure. It may be as few as 300 or as many as 1800. Given the nature of the Ancient Cave and how much work it represents, I'm going to stop the instant I find a B4 with a blue chest which is useful to me. Yes, it may not be optimal, but it's not feasible to find something that is.
Since I don't know when this magic blue chest is going to turn up, I can't really give you any estimates as to when I'll have a (very short) update to post. But when it happens, I'll be sure to post something.
I have a question, why do you need to trigger the blue chest in each floor?
Shouldn't sometimes be faster (and easier) to find a floor that has the stairs near to skip that floor & continue with the next one?
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Short answer? Because doing so leaves me at the mercy of the RNG, or at least moreso than the method I'm currently using is. Yes, that method would get me out of the AC faster, but it probably wouldn't give me much useful equipment. (Maybe two weapons and a jewel. Sure, there'd probably be some armor, too, but the AC's armor isn't all that useful to this run.)
That does raise the question as to whether the AC is actually going to save me any time.
Ah. We'll see, I guess.
I was thinking the best way to do it would be to make one shallow pass to pick up something (any weapon) worth carrying into for the second, full run. Each run probably wouldn't need more than 6 or 7 passes to find something acceptable, although I agree that if you want something that's "ideal" you'd need upwards of 100 runs.
If you want to try it all in one run, it'll take more than that.
Well if nothing else, a strike against multiple passes is that it's going to be single segment. Even segmented, I still don't see the point though, because Providence takes awhile to get and it'd be more time than it's worth to make multiple passes.
(My current goal is to get 3 weapons and a Silver Eye and Gold Eye and then providence out in less than 10 minutes. Actual time is probably going to be 4-5 minutes
That does raise the question as to whether the AC is actually going to save me any time.
Ah. We'll see, I guess.
To be honest, I doubt it would if it takes 10 minutes. 4-5, probably. Since my estimate is more like 3 minutes (unless I'm forgetting something like you wouldn't need to go to Gruberik otherwise, and then maybe you need to watch a boat ride or something), that's why I think the AC is worth it.
Although, I don't know how you'd feel if after all this, it turned out that the AC was actually a waste of time. =/
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Short answer: Yes, but not enough to merit an update.
Long answer: Sorry you guys haven't seen hide nor hair of me for so long. I ended up working this summer, which left me with no liesure time, and now that classes have started back up and I have spare moments here and there I'd forgotten where I was. I have picked up where I left off, and I've got the first two floors recorded, but floor three is going to be determined by what kind of floor four it can give me so it's going to take a little while to test. I was planning to spend this weekend on the run, but then one of my proffessors handed us a paper which basically has to get written over the weekend 'cause I'm not going to have time to work on it Monday or Tuesday. =\ As of right now, I'm hoping to have something worth posting by the second week of October, but something else may come up, so don't hold me to that.
Also, @Enhasa: No, you don't have to go to Gruberik to advance the plot. So there is an extra boat ride involved in going to the Ancient Cave, but the boat ride is paltry compared to the time I end up spending in the Cave itself. (The difference between sailing to Gruberik and then on to Narcysus and just sailing straight to Narcysus is ~20 seconds. It's the whole "getting off the boat to go spelunking" thing that adds significant time to the run.)
Just taking a quick look ahead, the next three dungeons are mostly a walk at my current level anyway. (Well... at least they are given that I can manipulate them.) After that predications get a little more difficult because I can't gauge how many battles I'm going to end up forced into. (And therefore can't predict what my levels are going to be after three more dungeons.)
(Odd fact which I'm sure some of you remember: you can actually buy equipment from Karlloon before you go to the Narcyssus Tower of Sacrifice, and Karlloon sells Multiswords which are (in my esteem) among the best weapons in the game. So even without the Cave, I get a good equipment boost at this point in the story anyway.)
I've been hesitating for a while to post here, since I wasn't sure if quietkane is still working on his run and the last thing I wanted to do is demotivate him. But seeing that it's a year and a half since the last update I'll do it anyways.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1126162887/Lufia2_WIP1.smv
Inspired by quietkane's work I've started making my own speedrun of this game with the knowledge of major timesavers, almost all discussed at the SDA forums (props to Dragondarch's near perfect strategy planning!). These include:
More Boomerangs/Items in general.
Skipping Insect Crush + Fire Dagger
Using Elemental attacks on several bosses (Gades, Idura, Lions)
Using the US ROM.
Technically, the timing difference between the roms shouldn't matter at all, since the runs are timed by frames. But in long runs like this one, the difference between 50 and 60 fps can make a total difference of ~30 minutes, which makes watching the movie more bearable. Also, watching Maxim move at high speed is (in my opinion) generally more impressive.
This run ends at Narcysus and I will not be going through the Ancient Cave seeing what it did to quietkane :(. It's just too damn scary.
Most of this run was recorded during the last two weeks, and the next four weeks will be pretty busy for me. So progress will be a bit slower, but I promise I'll finish this one.
EDIT: Moved WIP to Microstorage.
Holy bugger. I can't wait to see where these items you get save time.
Power potion, Hi-potion, Witch Ring, Jute Helmet, Mind Ring; they're all gonna save time eventually, right?
The reasoning for using the E version over the US version was that there are graphical glitches present in several places during the game, which would detract from the viewer entertainment (at least in my opinion).
Also, since you're going to use the US version, why not just use the level 0 glitch?
Holy bugger. I can't wait to see where these items you get save time.
Power potion, Hi-potion, Witch Ring, Jute Helmet, Mind Ring; they're all gonna save time eventually, right?
Power potion was for luck manipulation, in order to get an easy drop on both the Eagle Rock and the Catfish Jewel. Witch Ring turned out to save one round on the Regal Goblin alone (ups the Mega Quake damage by ~10 points). Together with the Mind Ring another 2 rounds can be shaved off the clown fights in the Treasure Sword Shrine. Also, the Mind Ring's IP is used a few times for luck manipulation.
At first I was going to pick up the Jute Helm for it's IP attack (-MGR on an enemy) but it turned out to have very little effect on the spells I use. It seems that when a boss' weakness is for example lightning, all lightning spells ignore the boss' MGR. But as you can seem the Camu fight is near perfect and skipping the Jute Helm would change the boss' behavior and would turn out to be slower.
The Hi-Potion is pretty much the same story as the Jute Helm, not picking it up would turn out to be slower due to the effect on the boss' attack pattern.
Atma wrote:
The reasoning for using the E version over the US version was that there are graphical glitches present in several places during the game, which would detract from the viewer entertainment (at least in my opinion).
Also, since you're going to use the US version, why not just use the level 0 glitch?
I know why the E version was used initially, but seeing how much faster everything happens in the US version sold me. The only visible graphical glitch in the run would be the Dual Blade Shrine since all the menus are handled so fast and I don't think it's that bad.
The level 0 glitch sets your level 0 (duh :p) and causes you to do insane damage, but I'm not sure what happens when you get hit. I heard about level 0 glitch, and I tried to reproduce it, but I failed. But on second thought the glitch would take quite some entertaining elements away from the run like the near death boss fights and IP managment.
Wow...I was mentioned =P
As for the MGR thing, here's the formula in case anyone is interested...taken from IronKnuckle's FAQ:
Damage = (Base DMG / 2) - (MGR / 4) + fluctuation
I have noticed damage increases even when casting a spell an enemy is weak against, but it's minimal in most cases. The fact that MGR / 4 exists makes it near useless...however it can sometimes be used (talking about the Jute Helmet here) for manipulation purposes.
Now if I could just get Camu to drop his damned Jewel...
Ah, that makes sense. I guess in my case the damage increase cause by the lower MGR was compensated with a lower 'fluctuation' variable. I didn't know Ironknuckle's FAQ contained this kind of formulae, I guess I have to re-read it again :).
As for the Camu Jewel, I can only sympathise with you. Manipulating drops has got to be the worst part of this game, toolassisted or not. I'm not sure if this can help you, but here is some things I noticed about luck manipulation in this game.
For luck manipulation purposes I monitor the following two memory addresses: 7E0559 and 7E0522. Basically the value of these two addresses seem to determine every little randomness in this game. This is what makes it really hard to manipulate luck in this game; every random thing is connected to each other, you can't change them individually. I learned this the hard way when I tried the Lake Cave for the first time. I think I had to redo this part over 10 times to make sure I got a fast Eagle Rock drop, Catfish Jewel, was faster than an eagle, got single enemy encounters in the Secret Skills Cave and much more.
The value of 7E0559 starts at 0 and goes all the way up to 55. This happens when take a step on the world map, swing your sword, open a treasure chest etc. When it reaches 55, it goes back to 0 and the 7E0522 value changes. These new values seems to be predefined.
Anyways, this helped my find some action that do and don't influence luck manipulation.
Do affect luck manipulation:
Taking steps on the world map.
Taking steps in dungeons while near to enemies with 'random' movement ( jellies, eagles).
Swinging your sword, shooting an arrow etc.
Cutting down bushes.
Healing through potions or spells in the menu.
Spending time in towns.
Using different battle commands.
Entering dungeons/taking the stairs.
Don't affect luck manipulation
Taking steps near enemies with a fixed movement (baby frogs, scorpions).
Buying different types of items in shops.
Spending time on the worldmap, menu, shops.
Refilling through the HP/MP tiles.
Equipping weapons/armor/rings/jewels.
Doing different amounts of damage with the same action (when having a higher STR or INT for example)
Spending time in conversations with NPC's.
Using Warp/Escape.
I think that's most of them, at least the ones I use to mainpulate luck. I hope these are of any help to you and good luck with that jewel.
The level 0 glitch sets your level 0 (duh :p) and causes you to do insane damage, but I'm not sure what happens when you get hit. I heard about level 0 glitch, and I tried to reproduce it, but I failed. But on second thought the glitch would take quite some entertaining elements away from the run like the near death boss fights and IP managment.
It sounds interesting enough for an alternate TAS (much like the various glitched The Legend of Zelda runs), but seeing as it changes a major element of the game, there would more than likely be two published runs, instead of one replacing the other.
It sounds interesting enough for an alternate TAS (much like the various glitched The Legend of Zelda runs), but seeing as it changes a major element of the game, there would more than likely be two published runs, instead of one replacing the other.
That sounds about right. I have gotten the glitch to work now, but it seems a bit random when it happens. The result was a character at level 0 with all stats at 999, except for GUT, since it's max is 199. Pretty much like wearing an egg ring.
That said: Update!
This WIP ends at Dankirk just before the Labyrinth and is 1:45:50 (380974 frames) long. I suppose a game completion time of about 3:30 should be possible :).
EDIT: Moved WIP to Microstorage.
The WIP is looking really good! I'm glad someone is still working on this, Lufia II is definitely the most entertaining RPG TAS there could possibly be (in my opinion).
I'm glad you liked it!
Fortunately I was able to work a bit more on this run than anticipated and I'm already at the Gratze basement, meaning I have only one boss left before I can go and fight the Sinistrals. With the clock at 2:20'ish now, I'm guessing 3:10 should be the final completion time.
Also, I noticed that after you finish the game and the cinematics start, you first have to scroll through some dialogue before the input can be ended. The obvious choice would be to turbo through all this text, but in my opinion that will be a bit of an anticlimax. I was thinking of waiting a short time so you can actually read the text, but I'm not sure what the general opinion of this would be. After all, the main goal of this movie is to finish the game as fast as possible. It would be great if I could get some feedback on this one.
