Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Just writing here to express how sorry I am that I completely let my team down for this event...
I found myself too busy the first weeks, after that I've practically lost interest and motivation to practically everything. And I never showed up to tell this to my team either, I just didn't know what to say, pretty much, and I still don't.
Sorry.
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
Tompa wrote:
Just writing here to express how sorry I am that I completely let my team down for this event...
I found myself too busy the first weeks, after that I've practically lost interest and motivation to practically everything. And I never showed up to tell this to my team either, I just didn't know what to say, pretty much, and I still don't.
Sorry.
Well you were pretty much the only challenger I feared.
I don't blame you though. This game isn't bad but it's terribly unremarkable.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Just a quick request for confirmation, anyone think a list of received submissions is good to provide now that there's just a few days left? Hopefully as a kick to the teams that have a file ready but just haven't submitted the darn thing. I mean, there isn't much time to go "oh, snap! Those bad dudes didn't submit?! We can win this, TAS NAO!!" Or for that matter, "guys, I know we four worked together 8 hours a day for the past two months, but now we know this team submitted, I guess we'll just have to give up."
On another thought, I recall some discussion somewhere, or at least my own wishful thinking (I will not be able to locate this alleged discussion), that if there's ever a sequential game to be called for in a contest setting (Donald Land counts as this), that we could submit in stages rather than the entire game. I've made an attempt that flopped. Then again, it depends on how clean the game is in stages, and whether there are things that carry over between them, like the two apples power-up for this game. Something like that may potentially allow for a faster next stage at cost to an earlier stage. Whatever rules we come up with should hopefully account for that.
I have sent messages to teams that have yet to turn in submissions.
The latter is definitely an interesting idea though.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
I had thought about hosting something like that a while back. I was going to start a "year long" TAS competition that did 1 level per week. It just so happened the game I had in mind had around 51 levels or something like that, so it kinda fit. But I wasn't sure if anyone was interested, and I didn't really inspect the game further to make sure the levels were individualized. They are all played in order as far as I know. I don't know if I would ever host it in the future, but it all made perfect sense in my head.
As far as rules, I wasn't so sure. Something like: the winner of each week will have their name added to the authors list at the end of the contest. And each week we took the winner from last week, and compiled the next level on top of that base TAS, all the way until the final week where we'd have a complete TAS.
My only concern was that people wouldn't be interested in the game, or there might be weeks with no submissions, meaning the competition wouldn't progress. Another thing to note is that there might be discoveries late in the game that would improve earlier stages, meaning the entire run would have to be revised, or at least noted for future improvements should the run be submitted as is. These are reasons why I never did it.
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
The less oponents the better so I don't care at all if any the other teams have submitted their runs (I don't even know if that's being added to the first post).
I like the current contest format and I see no reason to change it.
I propose that no NES games are choosen for future contests though.
They're too old, too limited and too simple to keep the players' interest on during the competition.
Chances are that even if the game doesn't have a run on the site, it has already been speedrunned by multiple people over the years and most of the tricks and glitches have already been found.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
pirate_sephiroth wrote:
Tompa wrote:
Just writing here to express how sorry I am that I completely let my team down for this event...
I found myself too busy the first weeks, after that I've practically lost interest and motivation to practically everything. And I never showed up to tell this to my team either, I just didn't know what to say, pretty much, and I still don't.
Sorry.
Well you were pretty much the only challenger I feared.
I don't blame you though. This game isn't bad but it's terribly unremarkable.
It had nothing at all to do with the game choice or DTC in general.
I propose that no NES games are choosen for future contests though.
They're too old, too limited and too simple to keep the players' interest on during the competition.
I completely disagree. NES may be old, but that doesn't mean they're not simple. I had a ton of fun working on this game, and never did I think that becuase it was NES that it somehow reduced the interest I had to work on it. I have actually experienced low interest on "newer" systems like GBA and even DS. I'd even argue that alot of GBA can be even more simplistic than NES, but honestly that is based on what game you're doing.
If NES was too simple and limited to keep player's interest, then this site wouldnt exist at all (because of NESVideos).
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
EZGames69 wrote:
pirate_sephiroth wrote:
I propose that no NES games are choosen for future contests though.
They're too old, too limited and too simple to keep the players' interest on during the competition.
I completely disagree. NES may be old, but that doesn't mean they're not simple. I had a ton of fun working on this game, and never did I think that becuase it was NES that it somehow reduced the interest I had to work on it. I have actually experienced low interest on "newer" systems like GBA and even DS. I'd even argue that alot of GBA can be even more simplistic than NES, but honestly that is based on what game you're doing.
If NES was too simple and limited to keep player's interest, then this site wouldnt exist at all (because of NESVideos).
Working on a game OF YOUR CHOICE and working on a game that's choosen for a contest are two completely different things.
It's not easy to stay interested in a game that you don't care about and that you can't even discover new techniques because it's so simple and old that everything has already been found.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
I do fully agree that plenty of NES games would be awful for this format due to how popular the system is and how many simplistic games there are, but this game is far from simple and was far from fully explored. I was incredibly surprised from what I have seen from submissions thus far and have been incredibly impressed with how diverse the results have been. I feel outright claiming a game cannot be a good fit because it is old and because it is for a particular system is a bit of a reach.
I'll be completely honest: If I could not choose this game, I would very likely passed on hosting this contest. The fact that the system was NES was coincidence (though the accessibility of NES TASing is certainly a nice side benefit). I felt it struck a balance in terms of complexity: it can't be too simple or easy otherwise there would not be enough variation in the results, but it can't be too complex otherwise you have like Zook Man ZX which lasted a lot longer and people definitely got burnt out on. I was a little worried myself when it came to the game having existing RTA work but when I asked I was reassured in that regard.
I definitely appreciate feedback however, it would probably help with hosting future contests.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
It's not easy to stay interested in a game that you don't care aabout and that you can't even discover new techiniques because it's so simple and old that everything has already been found.
That is the ENTIRE POINT of the contest, you dont know what you're going to get to work on. Half of the fun is working on a game you have absolutely no knowledge on and trying to beat it as fast as you can. It's comparable to somthing like a Mystery Game Challenge for speedruns.
I get that your experience may have been different than mine during this contest, and I don't want to fault you for that. However, it's a bit silly how your main complaint about the contest is what the contest is all about, doing a mystery game that you may or may not like. If you only wanted to do games that you DO care about, then dont sign up for these contests.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Joined: 12/28/2013
Posts: 396
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
EZGames69 wrote:
pirate_sephiroth wrote:
It's not easy to stay interested in a game that you don't care aabout and that you can't even discover new techiniques because it's so simple and old that everything has already been found.
That is the ENTIRE POINT of the contest, you dont know what you're going to get to work on. Half of the fun is working on a game you have absolutely no knowledge on and trying to beat it as fast as you can. It's comparable to somthing like a Mystery Game Challenge for speedruns.
I get that your experience may have been different than mine during this contest, and I don't want to fault you for that. However, it's a bit silly how your main complaint about the contest is what the contest is all about, doing a mystery game that you may or may not like. If you only wanted to do games that you DO care about, then dont sign up for these contests.
Hm... I agree this game is not trivial and it had stuff to find, but I don't see how what you said is related to what you quoted from pirate.
There was confusion in regards to how timing works: I am timing from input start to credits. Ending input early provides no advantages.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
There was confusion in regards to how timing works: I am timing from input start to credits. Ending input early provides no advantages.
Sorry but where exactly the credits is considered ?
First frame after the loading time between the last level and the credits or when the boss take his last damage or at the first letters of the credits ?
When the first words appear on the screen is what I will be timing.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
It is how previous dream team contests were timed and avoids awkward situations where a team's gameplay is faster yet ends input later.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Not DTC6. Not Dream Team Contest #6.
Actually, anyone here looked over the history of how each DTC asked for movie endings? Just thought I should ask, I only remember #6 clearly.
...Well I was confused then because I myself misinterpreted the rules I copypasted from 6 then. In that case just go by shortest input file since it seems more people interpreted it in that direction then.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
I prefer "fastest credits" over "shortest input" myself, but it's more a problem of logistics from what I know. Simply, the file we submit reports the length of inputs. It doesn't report when the credits take hold. It's therefore easier to compare input lengths than credit times.
We did end the final boss fight of Zook Man ZX4 using a "slow to credits, fast input end" strategy, using a glitch that keeps an attack hitbox in place indefinitely.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
For DTC5, I enforced timing by first frame that credits appeared, disregarding final input time. You could make arguments in either direction for what sort of ending would be best to go for, but in any case a contest should have a single defined timing point, to prevent situations where movies go for different sorts of endings and render themselves incomparable with each other.
FatRatKnight wrote:
Simply, the file we submit reports the length of inputs. It doesn't report when the credits take hold. It's therefore easier to compare input lengths than credit times.
You have to run through each movie file anyway to ensure that it reaches the ending without breaking rules, so at that point timing the exact point of credits doesn't take a lot more effort. It's best to be thorough in any case.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
