Assuming ElectroSpecter's figures are correct, Ornah has 3 phases, each having 36864, 28672 and 28672 respectively. If ElectroSpecter is reading, would you be able to post the memory locations for the stuff you have found as well, would help me in tracking the boss HP and other stuff, of which I am admittedly still learning.
I havent got as far as testing Ornah, I'm racking my brains at the Stage 3 boss for getting the optimal time, with its various parts it is not easy to plan for, especially the parts which appear then disappear during the fight. I've tried a few approaches, and I may require the use of an upgraded Boomerang Lizard to make things easy. Dragon Frye is dumb and ends up firing the wrong way too often, there are too many targets for it to go for so inevitably it goes for the side I dont want it to shoot at. Ball O Fire is very useful for taking the cannons out at the start (and protecting you from the red shots that follow you) but becomes less useful once they are gone. Maybe it would be worth using an upgraded Thunder Raven here, but I would have to switch it in, get its attack then immediately switch out to Boomerang Lizard for optimal monster use.
So, inevitably, I may have to go back to 1-2 and get the two other Level Ups I bypassed. By the time I reach the Stage 3 boss I can have 3 of the four monsters at L3, and I can get L3 on the last one during Stage 4 (there are two Level Ups within easy reach below your start point, and the worm that gives you the infinite Rolling Thunder also appears in that area assuming I cannot beat the Stage 4 boss in one phase without it.
I suspect that, given how long the Ornah fight takes, it's worth being at max level for him; the question really becomes when you want to max out your attack level (which is determined by how far out of your way you have to go to get each powerup).
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
There is also another possibility. There is a cheat built into the game that allows you to upgrade your Thunder Level Skill, Health and Monster Levels, meaning I can just max my abilities out then just plow through the game without having to go out of my way to get all the level up items. And with the exception of a few cases, pretty much all the level up items are out of the way.
I dont know whether this cheat would be allowed or not, I am loathe to use it personally, but it would make getting through the game much faster.
Apologies for the double post, but I thought it was high time I released a WIP. I wont be using this route any more, but any suggestions about possible improvements by others will be greatly appreciated.
For anyone who wants to watch, the GMV can be downloaded here: http://hosted.filefront.com/Toothache42
Alternatively you can watch it on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpRDBZlDQ00
I used Gens11a to make the movie, using the ROM Alisia Dragon (JU)[!]
I'll sum up the stages and try and suggest improvements I have seen already.
Stage 1-1: very little to improve here I think. I managed to reduce the lag caused by the bats at the end of the stage by jumping into them as they appear.
Stage 1-2: using the Ball O Fire to attack the enemy that appeared on the staircase at around frame 4100 saved me 4 frames. I would have either had to wait while I attacked him or jump over him.
Stage 1-3: first enemy I waited and attacked him, this could be improved by jumping over him at the right time. I paused for a single frame at 8433 so I could continue walking while attacking - it may have been faster just to immediately jump over the enemy at appears and attack with the Rolling Thunder.
I take a hit just after, but by pressing jump for 9 frames, starting just before I get hit, I avoid the stun effect that normally comes with being hit and continue forward with momentum.
I wait on the staircase for a frame to manipulate a better boss pattern.
Boss wasnt hard to do once I got the right pattern.
Stage 2
The background is the source of lag here, it has a moving effect that causes it to wave and swish slightly. This means any time I switch to a monster, it causes lag. The BOF also causes lag when it hits the miniboss.
Speaking of the miniboss, I dont know if it is possible to improve this to a single phase. Maybe with the aid of a powered up Thunder Raven in addition to the BOF damage (there are two Level Ups I skipped in 1-2 that could be used for this purpose). Again, switching will cause a lot of lag. I also wasted a frame before entering the miniboss segment to manipulate a more friendly pattern.
If I upgrade the Thunder Raven in 1-2, then I will be able to use the Level Up that appears on the way in Stage 2 for Boomerang Lizard, getting it to L2 here, and L3 in Stage 3. I can use the nearby Level Ups in Stage 4 for Dragon Frye.
Boss itself is done mostly with the BOF doing the damage, I add some with a Rolling Thunder.
Improvements to this stage will be minimizing the switching to reduce lag, and finding a way to damage the miniboss fast without generating lag.
Any suggestions for improvements will be greatly appreciated. This is my first TAS so it will help me in the long run. Also if anyone with RAM knowledge is able to help me find the boss hp and other pertinent info (like Alisia's summoned monster data and damage per level) it would help a lot - it is far from immediately obvious where that info is.
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
Just a couple of things.
First, did you manually turn your familiars off before walking into a cutscene to ensure the quickest selection? It seems weird that there are three clicks walking into a cutscene to turn them off and only two to turn them back on right after.
Second, is it not any faster to turn around for a bit and give the second boss a face full of rolling thunder?
Aside from that, looking good so far.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Hmm, I never thought about the switching before cutscenes. The game seems to be able to switch familiars faster, but I reckon that would be a small timesaver. Thanks for catching that one, cant believe I missed it lol.
I tested whether concentrating a forward-facing Rolling Thunder on the Stage 2 boss would be effective, and it turned out I wasnt able to kill it before it disappeared, even with some additional damage from Ball O Fire. I dont think I'm able to hit it on enough frames to do enough damage, because the mouth (the only vunerable part that Alisia can hit) is only open for a brief moment in between firing, and her normal attack is comparatively weak.
EDIT:
I'm also considering which pickups to get on what stages. If I remember rightly, and the Gamefaqs guide is anything to go by, the following are available to me on each stage:
Stage 1-1: none
Stage 1-2: 3 x Level Up, 1 x Thunder Level Up, 1 x HP Up
Stage 1-3: 2 x Level Up, 1 x Thunder Level Up, 1 x HP Up
Stage 2: 1 x Level Up, 1 x Thunder Level Up, 1 x HP Up
Stage 3: 1 x Level Up, 1 x Thunder Level Up
Stage 4: 2 x Level Up, 1 x Thunder Level Up
Stage 5: 2 x Level Up, 3 x Thunder Level Up, 1 x HP Up
Stage 6: 1 x Level Up
Stage 7: 1 x Thunder Level Up
Stage 8: none
Correct me if I'm wrong with this list, but as you can see, they give a lot more powerups than you need. Alisia needs a total of 7 Thunder Level Ups for max power, 8 Level Ups for her monster allies, and only 3 HP Ups, and they give you 13, 8, and 4 respectively, meaning I can bypass a few powerups and still get a max level Alisia and max out her summons.
My initial plan, assuming this list is true goes like this:
Stage 1-2: get all powerups, level up Thunder Raven first, then start on Ball Of Fire
Stage 1-3: get the Thunder Level Up, and second Level Up for Ball Of Fire
Total: T-2/7, M-4/8, H-1/3
Stage 2: get Thunder Level Up, , Level Up for Boomerang Lizard
Total: T-3/7, M- 5/8, H-1/3
Stage 3: get Thunder Level Up, Level Up for Boomerang Lizard
Total: T-4/7, M-6/8, H-1/3
Stage 4: use both Level Ups on Dragon Frye (unless it is not needed for the boss)
Total: T-4/7, M-8/8 (6/8), H-1/3
Stage 5: get 3 Thunder Level Ups, HP Up (both Level Ups near the first Thunder Level Up for Dragon Frye if I bypassed them in Stage 4)
Total: T-7/7, M-8/8, H-2/3
I endeavour to level up the monsters as fast as possible because they can do significant damage much earlier than Alisia until she reaches close to max Thunder Level.
The decision regarding whether I level up Dragon Frye in Stage 4 or Stage 5 depends on his usefulness against the Stage 4 boss. The two level ups in Stage 5 are conveniently placed near the HP Up and also on the way to getting the first Thunder Level Up, so they will take no time at all to get since I'm going there anyway. The two Level Ups in Stage 4 occur to the left and right of your starting position, and I may have to go here anyway in order to get the Infinite Rolling Thunder power to beat the boss, so it is not much of a time drain. It would be faster to get the Level Ups in Stage 5, but this would require me beating the Stage 4 boss without using a L3 Dragon Frye or the Infinite Rolling Thunder. It can be done without one I believe, but I am not sure if it can be done without both (unless I can also take advantage of BOF, I can test once I am done with Stage 3 boss)
EDIT: I revised my monster order - I level up Thunder Raven first of all, using the first two Level Ups in 1-2. Then I use the third on Ball Of Fire, getting the other Level Up for it in 1-3 just before the boss. This is mainly due to Boomerang Lizard being helpful in Stage 2 for taking on the platform-riding enemies and has a fast attack recovery unlike Thunder Raven.
Stage 1 is complete, and I have even fixed 8 frames of mistakes by dealing with enemies differently. This also includes not having to wait for a better boss pattern. Stage 2 shouldnt be too hard to complete now, but Stage 3 (especially the boss) will be a pain even with L3 Thunder Raven and Boomerang Lizard both at my disposal. I'll work on it when I get there.
I've had several thoughts about the route plan for this run.
Getting the two additional Level Ups for Thunder Raven in Stage 1 costs a total of 1594 frames (including the additional switches). I doubt that a L3 Thunder Raven will save that much time alone in the Stage 3 boss fight, so I'm rethinking how many Level Ups I should get before then.
If I miss the one in Stage 1-2, then I save 1006 frames of that, which is the biggest time cost. This gives me 5 Level Ups to play with, and 2 of those have to go on Ball Of Fire to make the first bosses go quickly. So that leaves me with a dilemma - I can only level one of the two remaining summons to L3, and one to L2. Or I could bypass the one at the end of 1-3 and stick with my original route, by levelling up one of the two summons.
Thunder Raven might be the best option to level up, since it has a powerful attack that hits on the entire screen, and I can potentially soften up several targets at once in order to finish them off with a Rolling Thunder. Using Alisia's normal attack will be pretty pointless during the Stage 3 boss, even at L5, so I'll be spending a lot of time waiting around between Rolling Thunders, or manipulating BOF to damage the cannons that are in easy reach at the start of the battle. Getting a boss pattern that allows TR to hit multiple targets at once will be crucial then, since many of the parts only appear on screen for a short time and are only vunerable during that period.
Also I have made several improvements to the first two stages:
Stage 1-1 - same as normal, I have not been able to improve this further
Stage 1-2 - using Thunder Raven to hit the first Level Up saved me a good number of frames.
Stage 1-3 - I jump over the first enemy rather than waiting for 6 frames.
I also save a frame by immediately jumping over a later enemy rather than waiting and walking.
I also dont have to waste a frame manipulating a better boss pattern.
Boss itself was improved by 3 frames from optimising the timing of the jump and the Rolling Thunder attack.
Stage 2 - saved a frame by not having to manipulate a better boss battle.
The rest of the level was basically the same length, although with different summon changes.
I saved a few frames by jumping into the Thunder Level Up and using a Rolling Thunder, but the same number was lost with the additional switching.
Can't you instantly kill the stage 3 blast using one rolling blast?
antd wrote:
oh nice, good soundtrack for its day
One of the best, and it's 100% FM, with no sound samples.
Do note that the youtube video was posted with that PSG enchancer being used, which imo destroys it.
Can't you instantly kill the stage 3 blast using one rolling blast?
Sadly not. Not everything is on screen at once (I believe Rolling Thunder's range only extends just past the edge of the screen), and once again the problem with the Stage 3 boss is that several parts are only on screen for a brief moment. Ball Of Fire can make short work of the cannons that are in easy reach at the start of the battle, but becomes useless against the disappearing/reappearing parts that are too far away for BOF to hit. Its a bit of a logistical nightmare, and the battle itself can go several ways.
I think the ideal plan is to level up everything I can for now, then test the boss in multiple ways to see what might be a possible order for defeating the various parts quickly. If I can live without levelling up a third monster before now, then I can save a huge amount of time as mentioned in my previous post - because there's no way having BOF, TR and BL will save more than 26 seconds, in fact it will likely take more time using three monsters instead of two with the switching. Thunder Raven, although powerful and able to hit everything on-screen at once, takes the longest to recover before being able to fire again, yet it is likely the best option for a 2 monster strategy. Boomerang Lizard, while helpful will only be able to help if it can aim its boomerangs in the right way - but it has a much faster recovery.
My bad, I was thinking of the stage 2 boss, not stage 3 (you don't one-shot-kill it in that youtube video). It's been a while I played this game.
For stage 3, what I usually do when the enemies come up, is to do a rolling blast and a level 3 thunder raven attack. This kills most things and only leaves a mop-up. I don't know if that's suitable for your run, though.
I've been working a lot on Stage 1 lately, and I think I have reached the point where there are no more improvements. I've had to think outside the box in a lot of places, but I'm really pleased with my progress.
Improvements from my original Stage 1:
- Saving a Rolling Thunder to get the first Level Up for Ball Of Fire
- Making use of momentum in places where Alisia falls for a distance
- Leaping over enemies rather than attacking and waiting
- Damage boosting off one enemy in Stage 1-2, the large fall compensates for some of the stun effect, and I gain a faster fall rate from the damage itself
- Optimising the movement around the staircases in 1-2
- Optimising the boss fight from 106 to 99 frames, and the stage total from 9261 frames to 9179 frames (counting up to the final hit on the boss), a total saving of 82 frames from the initial attempt at this level
I really have pushed this to the limit, now that I've included damage boosting off enemies (which I wasnt initially aware I could make use of) and the momentum gained from large falls, these tricks saved a large number of frames on their own.
I consider this stage finally complete now - however if anyone wishes to look over the Stage itself and suggest any other improvements you are more than welcome, but for now I will start concentrating on Stage 2.
You can download the GMV file here: http://www.filefront.com/13954919/AlisiaDragoon_WIP_Stage1complete.gmv/
Alternatively, it can be watched on youtube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kTF-UOQa28
Emu used: Gens11a; ROM name: Alisia Dragoon (JU)[!]
Nice, though you should try doing it in a way so you don't press anything during cutscenes (to avoid the "demo" text). But that would be purely cosmetical.
Looking good!
Personally, I think it's helpful to have the "demo" text displayed, so we know that the TASer doesn't have control at those points. Though I would say that if you're going to have it displayed, it shouldn't flicker like it does at the beginning of the game (unless you need that for luck manipulation?).
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Yeah, the Demo is purely a cosmetic thing, but it does demonstrate the parts where I dont have control over the game. As for the flickering at the start, I was testing how readily the game would accept an input, but since I have not been able to improve on Stage 1-1 (or even duplicate it), maybe there is a small luck manipulation factor involved. Unlikely, but possible
Besides, it gives you an additional thing to watch, and in this game there is a lot to keep track of - Alisia's actions, and her monster partner's actions especially, so it is easy to miss things unless you watch the video a few times.
EDIT:
Stage 2 is complete. The stage itself is fairly simple, consisting of a single stage, a sub-boss and a boss. It is however very laggy, this is caused by the background having a wavy and swirly effect, and causes actions which normally generate little-to-no lag to have some lag. Alisia's Rolling Thunder, her summon monster taking damage, or the summon attacking normally can all generate some lag because of this.
Improvements here have come from several places:
- Reducing monster switching
- Reducing lag from the sub-boss fight
- Using momentum to grab the Thunder Level Up in the most optimal manner
- Avoiding the summon monster taking damage - this is another source of lag
- Boss has been improved by a single frame, probably from reduction of lag here
The sub-boss was killed on the first phase of its appearance - however the game forces it through a second phase before it dies completely. This also meant I didnt need to bring out the Ball of Fire to help kill it, which causes a lot of lag on its own.
Getting the Thunder Level Up that floats high above the stage caused me the most planning and rerecords simply because there are so many ways to approach it. I needed to jump forward to grab it early, turn around and using the falling and rightwards momentum to carry me as far to the right as possible, which was easier said than done. I also had to attack early with the previous Rolling Thunder so I could have a full charge at the right moment during the jump to the power up.
The Level Up in this stage is right on my path, and it was used for the Thunder Raven. I can get the other Level Up for it on Stage 3, and this should be enough with the BOF to deal with the Stage 3 boss in the most efficient manner, methinks. Stage 3 also has a section which generates a lot of lag, thankfully it is not across the entire stage.
Stage 2 improvement: 102 frames
Total improvement: 184 frames
Again, can't you kill the Stage 2 boss in one attack?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaLJFPjHsx8
This was from Normal, but if the damage values posted earlier are correct, it should work on Hard mode too with lvl4 thunder.
Hmm, I tried doing that multiple times to see if it was possible. I'll go back and try it, but it might be impossible in Hard Mode. Since I have Thunder Raven already out before the boss anyway (to gain its first Level Up) it should be able to aid me in this.
EDIT: It is indeed possible on Hard Mode to kill the Stage 2 boss on the first phase. However, I needed to take damage, since the vunerable part is actually behind the mouth, I need to be within the boss itself to do enough damage, even with a L4 Rolling Thunder. I didnt even need Thunder Raven's assistance for it either.
Previous boss strategy killed him on frame 14684, with this new strategy I kill him on frame 14581, a saving of 103 frames! Ok, NOW Stage 2 is complete!!
Stage 2 improvement: 205 frames
Total improvement: 287 frames
Well, I have some good news and some annoying news (at least, annoying for me).
The good news is that I only have to kill the three brain-like creatures to beat the boss, which means I can ignore most of the cannons and just concentrate on those. The annoying news is that it may be slower to use Thunder Raven at all, which means I'll have to redo everything from the midpoint of L2 onwards (before I get the Level Up of that stage).
I can even consider forgoing the Thunder Level Up in 1-3 in theory since that takes the longest to get, although that will make things interesting for the Stage 2 Boss (the sub-boss always is forced through two phases before finally dying on the third).
There's a lot to consider, and not getting some powerups early will obviously lead to a faster stage time, the problem will be when it comes to dealing with the bosses. I can ignore one Thunder Level Up altogether since there are 8 in total and I only need 7 for max power. The furthest one away is either the 1-3 TLU or the one in Stage 5-1, and the one in Stage 7 is pretty out the way as well.
I will stick with my original plan for now, I have the Stage 3 boss more or less done now, just a few more optimisations. Stage 4 is very short, so that shouldnt take long to do.
Stage 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LyZBnHFfQc
I have an interesting dilemma here. Here I show the Stage 3 boss being killed without the use of Thunder Raven. However, it may be faster to ignore the Thunder Level Up in 1-3, power up Thunder Raven (since TR is great to use in Stage 6 boss battle especially as well) and continue one Thunder Level behind, grabbing the final TLU in Stage 7 (since it is the least out of the way of the final few, Stage 6 is a maze and I want to take the quickest path through that place). I may even be able to ignore that altogether and just stick with L7 Thunder for Stage 7 boss, Ornah and Balder.
There's a lot to consider, and I'm nowhere near done working on this. What power ups to get, what monsters to use, I havent got all the answers yet. But I'll find out, that is for sure!!
Again, feedback and suggestions greatly appreciated.
Stage 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_g0mPFlnIo
I think I will leave in the levelling of Thunder Raven since it is not out of the way much and it can do a fair bit of damage to the Stage 5 and 6 bosses. I've probably lost 4 seconds taking TR to L3, which isn't that much at all really, and it did help having it active during the latter part of Stage 2.
Stage 5 is my least favourite stage, and the boss is pretty tough too. I can have max level Thunder Power by the time I reach the boss however, which will be significant and mean I need to rely a lot less on the summon monsters. Although, the Stage 5 boss has the second highest boss HP in the game next to Balder, so every little will help. I want to minimise switching though.
Hah! That was quick. :)
I have a love/hate relationship with stage 5. It's an awesome concept, but the level's a total maze and some of the enemies are pretty cheap. And the boss really has too much health. Oh, well.
Looking good so far!
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Nicely done for Stage 4.
Stage 5 isn't any more of a maze than all the other levels, imo. It does have it's share of unique hidden spots, though. Look for the lava pool you can jump into for an invincibility powerup, for example.
The stage 5 boss really does have a little too much HP, which is only felt because he doesn't have a weak point where you can easily exploit the rolling thunder. It may be easier in a TAS, but you have to take damage either way.
Oh, wait, I was thinking of the broken-down spaceship level with the boss that's a random flying guy and two gun turrets. I'd forgotten about the heat caverns level.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Yep, that is Stage 6. Stage 5 is a pain in the butt.
My main concern comes from the fact that there are several places where I can take damage to save time. This doesn't seem too bad to begin with, since I get a second HP Up at the same time as levelling Dragon Frye to L3 (this will be helpful for parts of Stage 7 and the Ornah fight, since the Fire attacks take down the blob things in one hit and DF's fireball can be quickly fired in Ornah's direction without taking damage from his ground flame attack.)
Anyway, back to Stage 5 itself. Like I said, there are a lot of places where I can take damage to speed through the level. The boulders in the first part do somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of a health bar, and with 5 health bars to play with, I can finish the first part with about 3 1/2 health bars left in an optimal time. The second part is where it gets tricky, since there are flames that come up from the lava in several places, and each one of these does a full health bar's worth of damage. Not to mention the eyeballs that shoot fireballs at you, and are only temporarily disabled rather than destroyed by attacks, meaning you have to rush through the parts where there are both eyeballs and flame pits. There are simply too many parts where just taking the hit and rushing past will save time, and not enough health to deal with them all, which means I may be spending several parts pausing and attacking rather than just hopping through. Most of the health recovery potions are off the beaten path as well, although there are two on your route, giving me a total of 7 to play with without costing time (the first is next to the second TLU, the second one is on the way to the third TLU). You have to go to where the second Thunder Level Up is to activate a fairy platform to get you into the second part of the stage anyway, so it isn't much of a side-trek.
This stage will probably take many retries as I determine the best places to take damage and how much health I can save for the later parts of the level. And this is all before I even get to the boss. I can beat the boss in normal play without taking a hit though, it is an easy boss to deal with but it has a hell of a lot of HP.
Another thought is that the side-trek to get the third Thunder Level Up should be ignored since it isn't required to go there normally, and it is a dangerous part with a lot of the giant mole-men that love to teleport right on top of Alisia's position. This leaves the Stage 7 TLU as the best option for the final level up, because I don't frankly know where the Stage 6 TLU is (if there is one) and I want to rush through that stage quickly. L7 Thunder should be enough for the Stage 5 and 6 bosses though, since Thunder Raven can take care of the guns for me (her charge can be manipulated to be full as soon as the guns appear, so I would have no delay in her attack and just concentrate on using as many Rolling Thunder attacks on the boss itself.)
I'm about half-way through planning the second half of Stage 5 at the minute, I'll test if I need to save my health for the boss and decide how much of the stage I would need to redo to preserve health for that purpose. Not fun, but perhaps necessary.
Oh, and thanks for the support guys :-)
Oh, wait, I was thinking of the broken-down spaceship level with the boss that's a random flying guy and two gun turrets.
How is that boss annoying? As long as you instantly take out the turrets he summons (which a lvl3 Raven can do almost in one shot), you can literally just sit down, not move, and wait till his HP drops to zero.
Toothache wrote:
The second part is where it gets tricky, since there are flames that come up from the lava in several places...
Grab the invincibility powerup. It's under the first lava pool, I think, look around (it's at the very beginning of the level, at the part where you have to climb up, but before you have to turn left).
It takes a little time to get, because it's in an underground hole. But ultimately the lack of hitstun may save you some time - and certainly a lot of Health, which can be better used to suicide slam the boss with rolling thunders.
Most of the health recovery potions are off the beaten path as well, although there are two on your route, giving me a total of 7 to play with without costing time (the first is next to the second TLU, the second one is on the way to the third TLU). You have to go to where the second Thunder Level Up is to activate a fairy platform to get you into the second part of the stage anyway, so it isn't much of a side-trek.
On the second part, where the first giant cave-guy appears, there are two health powerups just above you. I'm not sure if you can normally reach them as you walk up on the cave wall with the help of the fairies. But, a rolling thunder gets them open (usually the same rolling thunder that you use to kill the first giant cave guy)
Stage 6 TLU is (if there is one) and I want to rush through that stage quickly.
Second part of Stage 6, as you fall down either to the very first room, or into the second one that is to your left. You can almost snatch it out of mid-air (not really though, as it only starts appearing as you fall down, but you can at least make it fall on you as you touch ground).
Stage 7 also has a thunder powerup, I think. I need to check. It certainly has a Monster Revive, though.
