This topic is for the purpose of discussing #7420: wafflewizard1 & c0mposer's PSX Spyro the Dragon "Vortex" in 20:30.80

This topic is for the purpose of discussing #7420: wafflewizard1 & c0mposer's PSX Spyro the Dragon "Vortex" in 20:30.80

Truly a great submission, hope to see this published.

Is it correct that you can replicate this category by playing further after any% completion, and also by using save data of that, instead of entering the cheat code?

I thought the movement and paths looked good even though I know nothing about this game. Was I entertained? Yes. How is the cheat code even done though?

Is it correct that you can replicate this category by playing further after any% completion, and also by using save data of that, instead of entering the cheat code?

You can come close, but not quite. If you started from a savefile with all homeworlds unlocked via any% completion up to the point of unlocking them, the run would be very similar and contain basically all of the same tricks/tech/movement, but have some minor differences. I list the largest ones that come to mind here: Any collectible (including dragons, which slow you down if you talk to them, so you have to avoid them) that you collected to do your any%/120% savefile would be missing from the world. In a fresh file cheat code run, all collectibles are still present in the world, and hence dragons have to generally be avoided. The entrance to the level toasty would already be open in the savefile, assuming toasty was entered. From a fresh file you need to free a dragon after exiting another level's vortex to open the entrance to the level. With a fresh file the fastest entry is going out of bounds and entering the level from behind. With a savefile, you could just run straight in, or do the same out of bounds but enter with much more leeway. However, as far as I know you could just unlock all the homeworlds without ever opening toasty, getting around this issue. A major difference would be the Magic Crafters balloonist Tuco. Tuco has a "catchup" mechanic where if you don't have the 5 eggs he requires to be an active balloonist, he'll warp you directly into a level that has an egg (he decides which level to offer to send you to randomly). From a savefile, Tuco's catchup mechanic would be missing, as you'd already have 5 eggs. Using the egg warp from tuco is usually fast because instead of taking you to the start of a homeworld, he drops you directly into a level with an egg. This obviously skips homeworld movement, and also a loading screen. In a savefile run you'd instead have to take the balloon normally to the peacekeepers homeworld, and traverse through it to the next level in your route. There'll also be several whirlwinds active in levels that skip platforming that the game assumes you've already tackled, as far as I know. The ones that come to mind are Cliff Town and Lofty Castle. Using a 120% savefile would provide an interesting quirk. Although of course it would have issues such as having the toasty head already open, it would allow access to the bonus level "Gnasty's Loot", which actually also contains a vortex. Vortex in its current form ignores this vortex, as you need 100% of the base game completed to access Gnasty's Loot. In a 120% savefile run, you could complete the "true vortex" goal of entering all the vortices in the game, instead of all but one. Just for some final clarification, all the cheatcode used in this run actually does is make the balloonists ignore their normal collectible requirements, and allow you to select any homeworld you wish to go to straight away. Other than that, the game behaves as if you're playing from a fresh file, and even Tuco's catchup mechanic still functions, as although he's willing to take you to any homeworld, he also recognises that you don't have 5 eggs. Also several of these differences that I listed could likely be avoided by getting very specific collectibles to build the any% savefile, as if Spyro hasn't visited the areas / collected things that "matter", they'll be there as if the file was fresh.

I thought the movement and paths looked good even though I know nothing about this game. Was I entertained? Yes. How is the cheat code even done though?

The cheat code is entered via a series of controller inputs on the inventory screen. Refer to this image:

TL;DR: Please watch this movie, vote, and post your impression about the run in the thread!!!

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I spent a week talking to Spyro people and watching different TAS and RTA branches, trying to compare them while still figuring out how the game works and why something makes sense. There's A LOT to unpack, so hold tight! Moons First and foremost, I'm not convinced this branch meets the Moons requirements yet. The original thread has 8 Yes votes and no No votes, but only a single post about voting Yes, and one post about being unsure what to vote, though "it was still enjoyable to watch". This thread is 7 Yes against 0 No votes, and also two posts about entertainment. The nature of the goal itself also plays a role in how this should be judged. And the previous thread contains an opinion that using the cheat makes this goal questionable. I'll try to explain what that means. Cheat The game is divided into several worlds, and from each world you have access to a set of levels. You can access new worlds by going to balloonists (one per world) that send you there, but they only start talking to you after you've fulfilled their requirements, otherwise you can't exit the current world and go to the next one.

To enter Peace Keepers you require 10 dragons. To enter Magic Crafters you require 1,200 gems. To enter Beast Makers you require 5 dragon eggs. To enter Dream Weavers you require 50 dragons. To enter Gnasty's World you require 6,000 gems.

This is why any% [1862] PSX Spyro the Dragon by lapogne36 in 41:38.30 is basically a collectathon. The game requires you to do quite some work to be able to go from point A to point B. The cheat code in this run removes that requirement. Which gives you the ability to go from point A to point B directly, basically you can just go beat the final boss right away. Vortex The vortex goal means you need to leave each level through its end portal (vortex) instead of through menu, and that's a human imposed goal not recognized by the game. It's important to know that there's one vortex that's only accessible after you've beaten the game 120%, so this run doesn't have it. The Vortex goal is not directly tied to the cheat code that unlocks all worlds. You can use all vortexes in a 120% run, or all but one in a regular run. Also you can unlock all worlds and then save the game, and playing from that save you can also access all but one vortexes while not having to collect anything, which will look somewhat close to this submission. I asked the Spyro speedrun community, and the only reason the cheat is used and not a pre-made in-game save, is convenience and tradition. It's how this category appeared, and people liked it and it's now one of the most popular RTA categories. Difference So how different is this run from any% in the end? While watching the 2 side by side I noticed that the movement in this run is much less intense, however the tricks are more pronounced. Spyro runners confirmed me that all the major mechanics and techniques used in Vortex also have an optimal application in any%, you just can't really glitch any% too hard because then you're out of your way and can't collect the required things anymore. So this category is definitely more glitchy. Legitimacy The previous thread contains some discussion about whether it's fair to call this a meme category. I want to note that even in the video the author linked where the goods of the goal are explained it's called a meme at 6:51 ("It was looking like the category would have the same fate as many other meme categories"). Now more seriously, it was argued that this goal meets the spirit (intent) of our original rule about codes and unlockable content.

We allow playing unlockable content using in-game passwords Using in-game codes[1] or passwords at the start of a game is allowed if it uses a built-in hard mode or if it makes cosmetic changes to the game, as long as parts of the game are not skipped. Using in-game codes or passwords at the start of a game to unlock a special game mode, character, level sets, or otherwise play the game in some unusual way is allowed.

And here's the current wording for comparison:

Cheat codes and passwords are only allowed to access harder difficulties and/or bonus content, including cosmetic improvements.

However I think my explanations of how this game works make it clear that the cheat code used here does not unlock any content. It doesn't add any bonus mechanics or features. It just removes a hard requirement. It absolutely results in unusual gameplay compared to any%, but so does noclip in other games. And it absolutely does not result in inherent gameplay differences, because you can still collect things like in any% or 120% and only use the balloonists after that. It also does not automatically result in the Vortex category, the players just voluntarily decide to use those vortexes. I think the rule about codes always meant that you can unlock new mechanics or levels, which means it needs to be present in the game already, just hidden. Or even more broadly, you can use codes to add or change existing mechanics or gameplay, but removing mechanics or gameplay is usually seen as simply making the game easier, without inherently changing the nature of the challenge completely. The fact that you can mostly replicate this run by starting from a post-completion save, which we absolutely do accept for Moons, probably can play a role in how exactly we treat this particular cheat code, but still it's not about unlocking new content. Rule changes 5 months ago changing the rule about cheat codes was considered an interesting idea, but we were very busy back then. Also now we have Wiki: Playground where this run can already safely go without problems. But #7451: andy120195's DS Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Blue Rescue Team "Wondermail" in 1:36:40.01 and probably even #7033: CasualPokePlayer's GBC Fushigi no Dungeon: Fuurai no Shiren GB2: Sabaku no Majou in 50:55.62 raise a question of whether we can accept runs using codes on more open terms, obviously as a different branch? If you can do crazy things with a password system, why ban it from TASing? We discussed this among staff and this idea was thrown around:

• For codes that add content, allow a separate branch for Standard.
• For other kinds of in-game codes, just require that it meets Moons requirements.

Outside world It exists???!!! Yeah, we spent almost 20 years limiting what is allowed to be published regardless of how many people want to make a TAS of something and how cool it can be. To be published, it absolutely had to entertain our general audience, or, later, to meet our really strict Tier rules. If something didn't meet those rules, we could be sorry all day but still reject a great piece of work. While initially it was necessary to gain ourselves the name for only publishing really good movies, it looks like we missed the moment when the world around us caught up on speedrunning and got rid of ignorance about what TAS actually is. Those were also the times when human speedrunners started replicating techniques that were believed to be TAS only. Reality started producing better humans (so to speak), who were able to match TAS times or even beat them. That one aspect was already worth worrying about, because it was a start of a bigger trend: people became so interested in real-time speedrunning that they didn't bother to also/instead make a TAS. You might think it's natural, because real-time speedrunning is EASIER, but that assumption actually contradicts the main premise: humans learned to pull off TAS-only techniques. It's can't be so much harder to TAS for them. They are just more interested in their own actual gameplay skills. If you actually talk to those people, they will tell you that while TASing is obviously cool in itself, the freedom they have in their self-imposed speedrun rules is a much better ground for really inventive competition than rigid rules of TASVideos that simply ignore the outside world and its trends. To be able to influence TASVideos judgments one has to register and become an active viewer, which means a viewer generally caring enough to be around and to post every once in a while. And to be able to influence TASVideos policies, it doesn't even help to be an admin apparently.

As much as I would like to see this published, this run is not eligible for the vault, and didn't gather enough support for anything higher, rejecting.

Let alone regular staff members. And yeah, "having" to reject good movies was already an indication we were shooting our own foot. Look where it brought us (this is from Spyro Speedrunning discord):

why dont we simply just make the run significantly less cool to conform to an arbitrary rule so we can get judged by people who dont even know the game? like no attack on any individuals but this whole debate is a great example of why i think the whole tasvideos process is just archaic and silly.

id even go as far as saying that category extension tas can also be as enjoyable to watch and shouldnt be just looked down on by tasvideos

The TASvideos' hard "no cheats" rule is too restrictive for niche categories like vortex. The entire run is predicated on allowing the use of cheats. Requiring a 120% file devalues the movement in cliff town, wastes 20 seconds at tuco, adds a level not historically done in the category (replacing Gnasty Gnorc as an endpoint), and occasionally removes obstacles (dragons, chests). If that's the only kind of run that can be accepted on TASvideos, fine, but that run is not the vortex category RTA runners run, nor care about. They have multiple TASes that were made within the rules of the category they care about. Who are TASvideos to say those are invalid? This arbitrary judgement is just silly to me. [...] I'm just saying that I can think of a few sites that dropped out of fashion due to restrictive global rules that failed to accommodate

Yeah both using the cheat, or starting from a full completion file are just as arbitrary as one another. But like Hum said, we have legitimized the category we now know today as vortex, with the cheat. So it only makes sense that the TAS follows the same rules of the category. Even if starting from a file would be more interesting (which it isn't), that should be pointless since the category has legitimized itself with the ruleset it has for the past few years, so changing the rules of the entire category for a TAS to fit a no cheat rule is silly imo, because then it is no longer a "vortex TAS" Vortex isn't vortex without the cheat

These are just from my interactions with them. You can find much more if you search for "tasvideos". One may say "LOL, SO WHAT, WHO CARES", and it's what we've been replying, officially. But guess what, there are dozens of people who speedrun Spyro 1 all the time, and there's only a single TAS publication and it's a freaking decade old. You know what is also a decade old? https://speeddemosarchive.com/Spyro.html If this is not an indication that we are actively becoming irrelevant, then I don't know what is. If motivating people to create and contribute TASes is not our goal anymore, then we're just wasting our time here. And if it is, then we're not so good at it apparently.

First and foremost, I'm not convinced this branch meets the Moons requirements yet. The original thread has 8 Yes votes and no No votes, but only a single post about voting Yes, and one post about being unsure what to vote, thought "it was still enjoyable to watch". This thread is 7 Yes against 0 No votes, and also two posts about entertainment.

What intrigues me the most from all of this is actually the implication that the existing feedback does not suffice for the entertainment criterion. In fact, there have been a couple of times over the years where I found decisions on publishing a movie to Vault vs Moon (before the tier revamp) to be somewhat arbitrary, namely not considering a movie qualified for Moon despite the poll result showing significantly more Yes votes than the other options. It might be better if there is a clearer stated threshold that a Standard-ineligible submission needs to meet in order to be qualified for Moon.

The fact that you can mostly replicate this run by starting from a post-completion save, which we absolutely do accept for Moons, probably can play a role in how exactly we treat this particular cheat code, but still it's not about unlocking new content.

Yeah both using the cheat, or starting from a full completion file are just as arbitrary as one another.

I agree that the use of built-in codes shouldn't be much of a limiting factor for Moon. It's a mechanism provided by the game itself after all.

What intrigues me the most from all of this is actually the implication that the existing feedback does not suffice for the entertainment criterion. In fact, there have been a couple of times over the years where I found the decision on publishing a movie to Vault vs Moon (before the tier revamp) to be somewhat arbitrary, namely not considering a movie qualified for Moon despite the poll result showing significantly more Yes votes than the other options. It might be better if there is a clearer stated threshold that a Standard-ineligible submission needs to meet in order to be qualified for Moon.

The context around this movie makes its Moons eligibility not proven. There has been a hard disagreement about legitimacy of its goal, which is a fundamental Moons factor. And not just about the goal in isolation but also how it relates to our approach to cheats over the years. There's no way to resolve this in a future proof way without setting some kind of a precedent, and there's no way to set a precedent if we only got 4 Yes posts in 5 months and no real discussion about why it makes sense with a cheat.

I don't think there's any question that this should qualify for Moons - at least I personally would feel comfortable putting it there. The voting is pretty good, the goal is clear, and I thought it was different enough from any%. I already watched it and voted yes. Now here's something that deviates from our past philosophy: I think we should weigh a category's significance in the speedrunning community more heavily. This category has had over 100 different runners and hundreds of attempted runs over the past couple of years. If we don't believe that makes this category significant enough to publish, then we are the ones that are irrelevant. These kinds of categories are birthed from a specialized community, and as outsiders to that, we should not really be the ones deciding if it's meaningful or not. As for runs with codes in general, I think there is a place for that in Standard, at least in certain circumstances. With this run I'm not so sure - I don't think anyone wants this to get obsoleted by a cheat run that just goes straight to the last level. Probably best that it stays in Moons as a separate category. But for other submissions, like #7451: andy120195's DS Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Blue Rescue Team "Wondermail" in 1:36:40.01 and #7485: ThunderAxe31's GB Rolan's Curse "password, game end glitch" in 04:04.80, finding the best possible passwords to use and beating the game as fast as possible actually represents an interesting optimization challenge. I wouldn't want codes that overly trivialize the game and wouldn't actually impress anyone, like noclip or God mode, but I think there's some room to work with here. Something like a "New Game+" goal would be cool, where you can utilize password systems or SRAM to have things unlocked from the start.

To be clear I voted Yes for this one. To me the goal of making tases and watching them is to have fun. Judging and processing tases should not be more important than the actual tases themselves. If a rule is cumbersome than drop it.

there's only a single TAS publication and it's a freaking decade old.

I plan to TAS out a modern and exciting any% TAS with the help of some runners, so don't worry about that ;) Aside from that, this convo has been really interesting to read. The reason I started running vortex was because of the glitches used, rather than running a category that needs collectables. This is the same reason I started speedrunning spyro 3 any% and spyro 2 any% and is what I look for in speedruns.

If it is uniquely entertaining, there should be nothing holding this back from Moons. It's not that different from [2059] SNES Mega Man X "password glitch" by FractalFusion in 16:56.88. A sort of "remove the collection requirements" run can easily be appreciated by your typical audience, which imo should be the main factor in deciding between moons and playground. EDIT: In regards to rules for standard, I'd be ok with a sort of "fastest with codes" but that'd be a discussion for another thread.

Moons, absolutely, but honestly I'm starting to lean standard on this. We definitely need a discussion thread for allowing in-game cheats in standard as separate categories. Given class changes are effectively a free action on the site (some changes to publications require an updated re-encode, class changes don't), there shouldn't be anything holding us back from accepting to Moons now and changing to standard later once we get that discussion going.

Hey guys, if this does get published i think a cool thumbnail would be one where spyros up high, maybe like gliding in twilight harbour or peak rat proxy in gnorc cove. Intro waifu request: Misato/android 18 🙏

This movie has been published. The posts before this message apply to the submission, and posts after this message apply to the published movie. ---- [4710] PSX Spyro the Dragon "Vortex" by wafflewizard1 in 20:30.80