Topic by Boco

Posted: 5/24/2005 5:40 PM

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Boco

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Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination

Arc wrote:

In our case, there isn't agreement that a 'tool-assisted' speedrun is really a type of speedrun. I say that it's a different type of thing that deserves a new term.

So call it a demonstration or a tools-assisted demo.

someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.

Posted: 5/24/2005 7:24 PM

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Michael_Fried

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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107

In our case, there isn't agreement that a 'tool-assisted' speedrun is really a type of speedrun. There's agreement between most of us, and that's what matters. I could say that I think Paper Mario isn't a kind of Paper Mario anymore when he gets lots of badges, but that doesn't mean everyone has to stop calling him Paper Mario, just like we shouldn't stop using "tool assisted speedrun" just because you think it's not a kind of speedrun. You say that speedruns have to be continuous, but segmented speedrun is a popular term. Just because continuous speedruns might be more common than others doesn't mean they don't fit the definition. When you play the emulator movie file, the game gets completed quickly, so it's a speedrun. Just the way that the button presses were produced is different, hence the words "tool assisted." Also, even if it's not really a kind of speedrun, it still has an adjective that lets you know how it's different from a speedrun, and having the word speedrun in it doesn't necessarily mean it's a kind of speedrun. For example, if there's something made out of soy that looks and tastes similar to beef, you might call it fake beef, but that doesn't mean it's really a type of beef. I say that it's a different type of thing that deserves a new term. Well even if you do give it a new term, it doesn't become a standard term until it's what most people use, and most people don't use the word timeattack to describe save state runs. On your site, you make it sound like timeattack is a standard term, and there's no doubt that you've caused a lot of confusion by doing that. Instead, you should have just said that on your site you'll be referring to that kind of movie as a timeattack rather than making it seem like you're educating people about the proper words to use. Also, I can't remember if I've seen you do this, but I know other people have done this after being mislead by reading your site, but you certainly shouldn't be posting on forums about your save state runs and assume that people will know what you're talking about if you call them timeattacks. Why such reluctance to form a compound word? New example: Fine, make a compound word if it's so important to you, but make it something like toolassisted or savestate, not timeattack. Your example is poor because turnout won't be confused with turn out. Turnout may not be confusing, but if you make the compound word lackofpeople which really means that people are gathering, then it'll cause a lot of confusion. Why do you insist on using the word that'll mislead the most people?

Posted: 5/24/2005 11:25 PM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

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Active player (278)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

A speed-assisted toolrun is not a timertag, guys That's all the more I feel like saying on this matter right now

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 5/24/2005 11:29 PM

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Spacecow

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Joined: 6/21/2004
Posts: 247
Location: New Hampshire

Boco wrote:

So call it a demonstration or a tools-assisted demo.

I for one would not be at all opposed to either of these. Considering these are meant for entertainment, "demonstration" is more than appropriate.

Posted: 5/24/2005 11:31 PM

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Arc

Editor, Experienced player (769)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

you certainly shouldn't be posting on forums about your save state runs and assume that people will know what you're talking about if you call them timeattacks.

There are 479 threads on these forums that contain the word 'timeattack,' so the word seems to be fairly well understood. The people outside of this community who I've spoken to about timeattacks haven't been confused either. Who are these allegedly confused people who are evidently 'most' people? (Not that I really care about them.) I don't see how 'timeattack' is misleading. 'Tool-assisted' just sounds so ridiculous and uncool. Like calling a powerboat a tool-assisted boat. Or calling stapling 'tool-assisted fastening.' If the movies had a cooler name like 'dreamruns' or something, then I wouldn't mind so much switching to that. Although I don't currently think that anything is wrong with 'timeattack.'

Posted: 5/24/2005 11:34 PM

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Phil

Active player (410)

Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec

IT IS. That's all I have to say.

Posted: 5/24/2005 11:40 PM
(Edited: 5/25/2005 12:43 AM)

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Michael_Fried

Former player

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107

The people outside of this community who I've spoken to about timeattacks haven't been confused either. Can you provide some links to forum topics? How did they know what a timeattack is? Is it only because they read your website? What about people who haven't read your website (which is most people)? How are they supposed to know? Although I don't currently think that anything is wrong with 'timeattack.' How many times do I have to explain that? It's bad because it's too similar to "time attack", and as someone already mentioned, 99.9% of people consider timeattacks and time attacks to be the same thing and won't realize that when you say "timeattack" that it means something different from what they've always thought of as a "time attack". No one wants to post times they got in the time attack mode of a game and have to worry about people thinking they used save states. People shouldn't have to stop using the word time attack just because you decide that the terminology for different kinds of runs should be made needlessly more confusing. No one wants to have to ask whether or not save states were used every time someone says they did a time attack for a game. Whether you like it or not, people have been confused about what a timeattack is. This isn't something that just happens occasionally, I've personally seen hundreds of instances where people didn't realize that a timeattack was made using save states, and that's just topics that I've read. In fact, many thousands of people have been fooled by the word time attack, just take Morimoto's SMB3 vid as an example, and don't give me the argument that if it said timeattack then people wouldn't have been fooled since your clever idea of removing the space didn't come until much later. Actually I just checked archive.org and the old copies of your website did call it a "time attack". Why would they be confused by the term "time attack" you might ask? Because, as I've already said so many times, time attack has never meant that save states were used. Morimoto used the word time attack because that's just what many people call speedruns. He just didn't mention for some reason what kind of time attack it was, which would be a save state time attack or a tool assisted time attack. Also I should mention that whether you like it or not, people have complained about people referring to save state runs as time attacks, and I don't blame them. As in the previous paragraph, not just a few, but thousands of people have complained. Why is that? Are they all trolls? No, it's because it really is misleading, and the fact that so many people are complaining is proof that it's misleading. Tool-assisted' just sounds so ridiculous and uncool. In your opinion. Lots of other people like the term, and also the Doom tool assisted community apparently likes the term. Like calling a powerboat a tool-assisted boat. Again you provide a poor analogy. Here's a better one: If the term for a boat with an engine or motor was "power boat" and you decided to start using the word "powerboat" to describe a sailboat or a rowboat, then that's misleading. If the movies had a cooler name like 'dreamruns' or something, then I wouldn't mind so much switching to that. So this is just about sounding cool? Then how about calling then "continuous single segment speedruns" so people think you have lots of gaming skill. It's not about sounding cool, it's about being clear and informative.

Posted: 5/24/2005 11:58 PM

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Arc

Editor, Experienced player (769)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

'Spoken' i.e. verbally. They have learned it by context. "Did you see the SMB3 timeattack?" "Yes, that is awesome."

Posted: 5/25/2005 12:52 AM

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Michael_Fried

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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107

'Spoken' i.e. verbally. They have learned it by context. "Did you see the SMB3 timeattack?" "Yes, that is awesome." I didn't see this when I edited my post, so I'll respond now. If they never heard of Morimoto's SMB3 movie and you say that, they'll have no idea that it was made with save states. However, they might know it was made with save states when you say that because you used the word "the," and there was only one SMB3 movie going around at the time, but that would be because they already know about it, not because you used the word timeattack. If they already know how it was made and you refer to "the SMB3 movie" or "Morimoto's SMB3 movie", they'd still know how it was made. However, if someone says "I just did an awesome timeattack for SMB3," they have no way of knowing if it was made with save states, and they shouldn't assume it is.

Posted: 5/25/2005 1:12 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

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Joined: 5/29/2004
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I don't care if people don't know it's made with save states. It's not my problem.

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 5/25/2005 1:15 AM

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Michael_Fried

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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107

I don't care if people don't know it's made with save states. It's not my problem. Fine, so don't help try to make the situation better if you don't want to, but at the very least don't make it worse by using the word timeattack for save state runs.

Posted: 5/25/2005 2:16 AM

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YtterbiJum

Active player (332)

Joined: 11/25/2004
Posts: 75

I don't know why, but when I see people bickering pointlessly like this, it makes me smile on the inside. Maybe we should make a poll: "Timeattacks or Tool-Assisted Speedruns?"

Currently working on: SNES Star Fox, Level 3 (100%, published) SNES Star Fox, Level 2 (33%, after Sector X) SNES Star Fox 2, Expert mode (100%, published)

Posted: 5/25/2005 2:38 AM

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Deviance

Former player

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706

if a poll is made, tool-assisted speedruns might win. Go back a year though, and I'm sure timeattack would have greater chances. Logically speaking, an appeal to popularity is a fallacy. Since most people prefer X, it doesn't make X true. I don't like the whole 99.9% idea either. Where does this number come from? Was calculated statistically with a large sample size? Is it representative? These terms are just intangible constructs, fighting vitriolic arguments over them seems somewhat unavailing.

Posted: 5/25/2005 2:56 AM

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Michael_Fried

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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107

I don't like the whole 99.9% idea either. It's just common sense. No one is going to think to themselves "Oh look, he left out the space in time attack, he must have been talking about something else!" If you don't agree, I'll make a topic about this on SDA or TG and we'll see what they think about the difference between a timeattack and a time attack.

Posted: 5/25/2005 3:16 AM

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Deviance

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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706

but again, you're appealing to popularity. If I think 1+1=14 and post it on three forums and get people to agree with me, it doesn't make me right. Since the videos and the sites containing the runs are now almost flooded with disclaimers, I find the use of different terms to label them at least somewhat justifiable.

Posted: 5/25/2005 3:39 AM

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nesrocks

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Player (241)

Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil

just call them uhhh lets see... What-if-run = as in what if god played it or HIrun = humanly impossible run or Showmehowitsdonerun ok, bad jokes, but seriously, Savestate-run is accurate but sounds pretty lame. Tool-assisted-run is vague what about Perfection Achieved Through Savestates And Slowdown? PATSAS or Perfectly Recorded Using Special Tools PRUST wow these are really cool new words i invented, we should use it

aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios

Posted: 5/25/2005 3:45 AM

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Phil

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Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec

How about Great or Divine run? GoD run.

Posted: 5/25/2005 3:46 AM

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OmnipotentEntity

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Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2624

I like what-if run.

Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.

Posted: 5/25/2005 4:04 AM

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slash_star_dash

Former player

Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 518

what-if or GoD... if just because im tired of some ppl at SDA. :)

Posted: 5/25/2005 4:34 AM

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nifboy

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Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375

I usually use the phrase "theoretical perfection" when explaining this to somebody, so I second the "what-if" option.

Posted: 5/25/2005 4:38 AM

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Michael_Fried

Former player

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107

but again, you're appealing to popularity. If I think 1+1=14 and post it on three forums and get people to agree with me, it doesn't make me right. Since the videos and the sites containing the runs are now almost flooded with disclaimers, I find the use of different terms to label them at least somewhat justifiable. What are you talking about? The 99.9% thing was about how everyone except for Arc would consider timeattack and time attack to be the same thing. If I make that claim, and then I go around to different forums and find out that everyone thinks they are the same thing, then yes, I am right! There's also another point I forgot to make. Suppose Morimoto went around to hundreds of different forums after everyone thought the vid was legit and said "It's not my fault you were all fooled! I labeled it as a time attack! Everyone knows that implies that save states were used!" "How are we supposed to know that?" "Because it says it on Arc's site of course! Is it my problem if my assumption is wrong that everyone has read Arc's site???" How do you think people would feel about that? Savestate-run is accurate but sounds pretty lame. How does it sound lame? Does the "run" part sound lame, or does the "savestate" part sound lame?

Posted: 5/25/2005 5:07 AM

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Deviance

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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706

What are you talking about? The 99.9% thing was about how everyone except for Arc would consider timeattack and time attack to be the same thing. If I make that claim, and then I go around to different forums and find out that everyone thinks they are the same thing, then yes, I am right!

it wouldn't prove the 99.9% because a few forum users on SDA and TG aren't representative of the entire population. This is the problem with "everyone knows" statements. If you want an accurate population parameter, you'd have to make that topic on places like this forum as well where people do know the difference, not just places where you believe people will be confused by the term. In that case, the statistic will drop lower than 99.9%.

Suppose Morimoto went around to hundreds of different forums after everyone thought the vid was legit and said "It's not my fault you were all fooled! I labeled it as a time attack! Everyone knows that implies that save states were used!" "How are we supposed to know that?" "Because it says it on Arc's site of course! Is it my problem if my assumption is wrong that everyone has read Arc's site???"

You're giving an example where purposely made Morimoto go around making a series of fallacious statements and included the word timeattack in there. I don't see how this helps your point. You should remember that Arc's site came after Morimoto's run, so his term is not as old those used by Doom communities and others. It's also a matter of context; there are many words that have different meanings depending on the context; for instance, the statement "time flies" can mean two different things. The statement "I made a timeattack" is different than "I played a game in time attack mode". This is an important thing to keep in mind. I'm not saying that this term should replace another, I'm saying that I find it an acceptable one to use.

Posted: 5/25/2005 5:44 AM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
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>Logically speaking, an appeal to popularity is a fallacy. In science and other types of facts, yes. No matter how many people think the world poofed into existence 6000 years ago, there would still be huge amounts of evidence for million-year evolution. But languages are different. Words actually have no meaning other than what people assign to them. The word gay is an excellent (if tired) example. A hundred years ago everyone would have agreed that gay meant happy or glad. If I remember correctly Winnie the Pooh is described as walking gayly (spelling?) down the road in one of the books. If you ask people now everyone would agree it means homosexual. So that's what it means. Happy isn't the "real" meaning of the word. Words have no real meaning other than the one currently agreed upon.

Posted: 5/25/2005 5:49 AM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
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>Is 'turnout' incorrect or confusing, because 'turn out' already has other meanings, such as 'to shut off' or 'to be found to be?' Yeah, it would be very very confusing if the other meaning was "a large number of people gathered for no particular event or purpose" or some other close meaning which you were actually trying to differentiate the original word from.

Posted: 5/25/2005 6:20 AM

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Deviance

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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706

In science and other types of facts, yes. No matter how many people think the world poofed into existence 6000 years ago, there would still be huge amounts of evidence for million-year evolution. But languages are different. Words actually have no meaning other than what people assign to them. The word gay is an excellent (if tired) example. A hundred years ago everyone would have agreed that gay meant happy or glad. If I remember correctly Winnie the Pooh is described as walking gayly (spelling?) down the road in one of the books. If you ask people now everyone would agree it means homosexual. So that's what it means. Happy isn't the "real" meaning of the word. Words have no real meaning other than the one currently agreed upon.

I agree, however, when gay is used as a noun, it can only mean one thing; if it is used as an adjective, it can vary depending on the context. This is similar to the distinction between time attack and timeattack. To say morimoto's smb3 run is a timeattack does not mean that he played it in time attack mode. I don't believe people have much to worry about when it comes to the two terms conflating.