Would it be possible to get poisoned by the Hypno, leave Fuchsia Gym, have Erika's Pokémon give Mew a beating, and save Koga's battle for the second WTW (assuming there are enough steps to do Koga, Cinnabar Mansion, and Blane)? If not, randomizing a Grimer in the mansion might be the best option.
For the second WTW, you could do a tour of Celadon City and end your trek over the ledge on Route 7.
Is it required that you save and reset your game at the Safari Zone in order to do the WTW glitch? If not, you could go back into the building, exit into Glitch City, and then fly to Fuchsia City. If this method can be used, it would save about a minute since you wouldn't have to save and reset the game twice.
That said, route-wise, do you think my run was good enough. I feel I've should have gotten Mega Punch and stuff like that. Oh well.
I haven't actally reviewed it yet. I will, however, when I have time, and post feedback.
The first thing that made me wonder was teaching Bide, but it worked quite well for what you needed it for, and I think it was a better choice than going out of your way to pick up Mega Punch. It even shortens a few rounds of attacks, and doesn't miss, as Mega Punch does often.
I also wondered why you didn't do Cerulean Gym directly after visiting Bill. I would have taught Mew Bubblebeam, and stopped using Pound immediately, due to its slow animation. Even if you get a 'critical hit' and 'not very effective' message at the same time, it's still faster than using Pound. I imagine this could have saved nearly a minute over the course of your run.
The route you use in Vermillion is clearly superior to what I'm using. By Teleporting directly from SS. Anne, it saves the trip back across the dock, which isn't short at all. This is probably around 10 seconds faster or so, and I'll be redoing this in my run before I go back to reroll Mew's stats.
You buy an extra Escape Rope in Lavender, although you had more than enough money to buy two (or even three) back in Pewter. Seems like a mistake in route planning?
Before watching your run, I was quite sure than doing the Snorlax skip a second time was faster than taking the seaside route to Fuschia. After watching your run, I'm now confident of this. It worked out alright in your run though, because it allowed you to get poisoned earlier, and to take more damage because of it.
The trainer you fight in Celedon Gym before fighting Erika has three pokémon. This battle can be replaced by a trainer with only one, which would also save a good deal of time.
I wonder why you took the time to get Surf instead of just biking down to Cinnibar before doing Sabrina. Although you do use Surf towards the end of the run, if you had Bubblebeam, it would probably work just as well where you need it. Also, Escape Roping away from Sabrina and then Flying where you need to is a few seconds faster than walking out, and then Flying.
Healing in Veridian before teaching Surf was a mistake. If you go into your house in Pallet and talk to your mother, it accomplishes the same thing, and is actually quite a bit faster. This would have also saved having to bike to Pallet directly afterwards.
After watching your Elite Four battle, I'm even more worried about how well that's going to work out in my run. I plan to do a test run, to see if my current plan is even feasible.
In general, it was a very good run; the fastest completed run that I currently know of. I do think it could be improved by a good bit though.
If you can't get Mew to beat the two Onix's, try obtaining the Blizzard TM right by the switch in the mansion. Besides those, you may need to use an SE attack on Rival's Rhydon (too bad Blizzard's a long animation move). I would've suggested Water Gun, but then you'd have to redo more of your run.
Why will Rival not be "nicknamed" this time? Is nicknaming him slower now just like Abra?
Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands
Thank you for your feedback, primo. I really appreciate it. :)
It also makes me want to redo it and implement your ideas. If so much time can be saved, then I will definitely redo. ^__^
I make a few stupid mistakes in the run I kinda want to fix. As you said, I bought one Escape Rope more because it was an error in route planning. Not getting a level up before Brock was kinda depressing as well (1 EXP away from level up, darn Caterpie. >:( ).
Some things I didn't know or thought of, will definitely be used in the next run. I'll have to figure out how to skip the second Snorlax though, but that shouldn't be to hard I guess.
Also, I decided to just Surf over to Blaine, because I'd have to WtW thrice, correct? One to reach Sabrina, one to reach Blaine and one to reach the E4.
Then there are the random things like bumping into walls or taking wrong turns (I kinda disliked the part where the guy in Viridian City kept bugging me for example. >_>).
I also wasn't aware that Pound was so slow (I was aware of the fact that Bubblebeam was faster though, but I didn't think it would make such a difference.
Again, I have to say I deeply appreciate your feedback. Thanks!
I'll have to figure out how to skip the second Snorlax though, but that shouldn't be to hard I guess.
You can see how I did it in the last WIP I posted. It really isn't too much work at all.
Thomaz wrote:
Also, I decided to just Surf over to Blaine, because I'd have to WtW thrice, correct? One to reach Sabrina, one to reach Blaine and one to reach the E4.
Only twice. Before doing Sabrina, Fly to Pallet, and bike down to Cinnibar. Once you enter the city, Fly to do Sabrina. Afterwards, you can Fly back to Cinnibar at any time, because you've already been there.
Thomaz wrote:
I also wasn't aware that Pound was so slow (I was aware of the fact that Bubblebeam was faster though, but I didn't think it would make such a difference.
When you use Pound, watch your opponent. You will see that they flicker for a very long time (this is the 55 frames, nearly a full second, that I keep talking about). This means that every time you use Pound, it adds one second to the length of your run.
Thomaz wrote:
Again, I have to say I deeply appreciate your feedback. Thanks!
Not a problem. I'm very glad that I watched it.
SpeedRun Lover wrote:
If you can't get Mew to beat the two Onix's, try obtaining the Blizzard TM right by the switch in the mansion. Besides those, you may need to use an SE attack on Rival's Rhydon (too bad Blizzard's a long animation move). I would've suggested Water Gun, but then you'd have to redo more of your run.
I've played through to the end unassisted, and I found that Take Down is indeed not effective enough. Fire Blast on the otherhand, obtained from Blaine, works quite well. Not only on the Onixes, but also the Rhydon, and saves a critical hit on the L60 Gengar.
SpeedRun Lover wrote:
Why will Rival not be "nicknamed" this time? Is nicknaming him slower now just like Abra?
Because so many of the Rival battles are being skipped, it is a little faster. Had the name been 4 characters long, it would have been a little slower, one of the reasons why I choose to use Blue (I really dislike the idea of a nameless hero/rival. I did, however choose 'I', because it flows well in the text, and saves a lot of time).
I was thinking about Fire Blast for the Onix's, bit I didn't think it would one hit KO Rhydon with a critical hit.
You are very right about the hero name thing. I even mentioned that in an earlier post of mine.
Excerpt from page 30:
SpeedRun Lover wrote:
I understand the point of using your runner name for the trainer name, but naming him one character too also saves time.
How much exactly depends on how many times his name appears in the run. I think using capital I was the best one character choice as well.
With Fire Blast being 5 power points, it is only usable against 5 Pokémon. Who's going to be the last receiver of Fire Blast, or will the last one not be needed?
Would it be possible to WTW and then be able to get into Blane's gym without the key, or would doing that make the run longer? This would save having to go through the entire mansion on foot.
With Fire Blast being 5 power points, it is only usable against 5 Pokémon. Who's going to be the last receiver of Fire Blast, or will the last one not be needed?
Exeggutor in the Rival battle. Thunderbolt is halved effectiveness, and I want to make sure to use Take Down a lot in the beginning, to get Mew in the red as soon as possible. Which means, using it here would faint myself, so Fire Blast is a very nice option.
SpeedRun Lover wrote:
Would it be possible to WTW and then be able to get into Blane's gym without the key, or would doing that make the run longer? This would save having to go through the entire mansion on foot.
Yes, this would be possible. But it would mean doing the glitch three times, which takes quite a while. Walking through the mansion (and Escape Roping out) is much faster.
Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands
Of course, I didn't think of that, just flying to Cinnabar first time. I'll do that then.
And no, doing the WtW one more time does not outweight the time it takes to set it up. I did that in a testrun and came to the conclusion that it was to slow (hence I grabbed Surf) but I forgot that the effect stays when you Fly.
I wonder how much time I can save. I'm guessing a lot.
Why would that mean having to do the WTW glitch an extra time?
There's a guard who stands in front of Saffron Gym. If you don't do the Silph Co. building, you need to use WTW to get in. If you don't get the Secret Key from Cinnibar Mansion, you need to use WTW again to get in. To skip Victory Road (and Veridian Gym, necessary if you skip Silph Co.), you need to do it again. That would be three times.
Which is faster, getting poisoned by Hypno, leaving Fuchsia City, having Erika's Pokémon give you a beating, finish WTW-ing, and saving Koga for the second WTW, or doing it the way you did it in the WIP, find a Grimer/Koffing in Cinnabar Island Mansion to poison you, and finish doing what you have to do?
About where to waste the extraneous steps (out of the 500) for WtW: I suggest Fuchsia city. You could do a tour of the whole "zoo" area, which is never looked at in a TAS. Afterwards, there's some jump-ledges under the gym, which could be used.
About where to waste the extraneous steps (out of the 500) for WtW: I suggest Fuchsia city. You could do a tour of the whole "zoo" area, which is never looked at in a TAS. Afterwards, there's some jump-ledges under the gym, which could be used.
I like this plan. It actually saves me using Fly once, which is even better.
So, update. I went back an redid the last segment, starting at Vermillion, using Thomaz's route. This saved about 2.7 seconds; not as much as I was expecting, but still a fair amount. I also managed to get a Meowth encounter, which saved a bit of time, and the D-sum was almost exactly where I needed it, so I saved a little time from not having to manipulate that as well. For the second Snorlax skip, hanzou suggested using an alternate glitch trainer, which saved around another 6 seconds. I also had a much better idea for saving time in Cerulean Gym than what I had been planning to do. I was able to get red on Erika's last two pokémon, instead of just her last, and I didn't need any additional HP. I'll be using a similar strategy in Cinnibar Gym. In total, I saved approximately 16.2 seconds on the segment I redid, which I think was more than worthwhile.
I intend to finish the run within the next few days. I won't be posting any more WIPs before then, so you'll just have to wait~
Primo, how in the universe do you manage to finish your runs so darn fast? Do you have tons of free time or are you just obsessed?
*rocks back and forth while muttering, "gotta catch 'em all... gotta catch 'em all..."*
EDIT: I had another idea to save time while test running Cinnibar Gym. I went back and redid Koga and Erika, and saved another 3.8 seconds, putting me 1203 frames (20s) ahead of the last WIP I posted.
Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands
Just got back from a short holiday (of three days, lol). I did a small test run using the new things I got and learned by your route ideas and got 1:34, I did, however, made mistakes worth up to at least 90 seconds if not more, so I guess 1:31 may or may not be possible for a non-TAS unless I can find a faster route or stuff like that (or if I can manipulate crits better. >_>).
Since I don't know how to watch the WIPs, I couldn't check the second Snorlax skip but I figured it out on my own which was good. ^^ I will tape my route for that tomorrow so you can check if I did it the fastest way. I'm not sure, hence why I'll tape.
Here's another entertainment thought for the TAS: Since Primo's name is never said, how about having the guy bike around spelling the name? It wouldn't waste any time if done during the WtW steps, and if Fuchsia runs out of entertainment value then it could waste some extra time.
Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands
Oh, nice. I'll check right away.
Anyway, I taped the second Snorlax skip I used.
http://files.filefront.com/Second+Snorlax+Skipmp4/;8367605;;/fileinfo.html
I want to know if this is the fastest way (not counting the mistakes and Surf instead of Bubblebeam, I had to use my finished game for this).
Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands
Oh? VLC works fine for me.
I'll upload it later on YouTube.
Edit: nevermind guys, I just checked the TAS (which is awesome) and your method is slightly faster so I'll use that one (I used the 'original Gamber' to glitch Snorlax away).
Furthermore, there are a few things I could use in my run (although I figured most of it out in my new test run I did).
I fear that the run might look like the TAS though, so I don't hope that people think I'm trying to the TAS, I pretty much figured that route out on my own and rethought it with the help of primo, so yeah.
I've been thinking - Pokémon R/B has a bug that lets you go on Cycling Road without a bicycle. Obviously, getting the bike is much faster than not, but I wonder - would it be possible to skip the guy who sends you to pewter gym without a badge? The "bikeless cycling road" trick is pretty easy to pull off.
EDIT: Here you go http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1763215754/Pokeredbikeglitch.vbm I used Pokémon Red, because I couldn't find the .vbm of the Blue TAS.
