Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands
Oh wow. I missed a lot.
I spend my yesterday evening on recording a run up to Viridian Forest. I don't think my current Bulba can reach 16 Special... (I only reset for low HP/Def and high Atk).
lol, a reset then, I guess.
Edit: and yeah, you need a trainer afaik. The whole reason I go and fight Gary in my 100% run is because after death-warping, I can't go back up without triggering a fight.
Who would we fight instead? Remember, you need to fight a trainer to trigger the next stage of the Trainer-Fly glitch.
Surprisingly with a death trainer fly (where you get the encounter in front of a trainer and die to setup the trainer fly) you don't need to fight an additional trainer to get the wild pokemon to appear.
This tactic was used in the old NSC route to get Nidoking before Brock.
Oh wow. I missed a lot.
I spend my yesterday evening on recording a run up to Viridian Forest. I don't think my current Bulba can reach 16 Special... (I only reset for low HP/Def and high Atk).
I know that 10/16 bulbasaur can hit 16 DV at level 8 or sooner. You can check at level 6 for stats.
12 special at level 6 = reset
13 special at level 6 = go to level 8 ( 6/8 DV's will work)
14 special at level 6 = go to level 7 (3/7 DV's will work)
Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands
Hm, I might have been mistaken about death-warping then. Oh well, you learn something new everyday. I probably didn't menu-flash to get rid of the "Hey, do you have Pikachu?" trainer.
I have no knowledge on Cooltrainer, but I'd say it's faster?
Edit: since I do segmented runs, I would just reset for the Special required of course. =P
I think Pikach could deal with Weedle faster, but the 16 Special is an obvious issue, so I think Bulba is faster in the end, even if we can't death-warp.
No, wait. We can use Bulba/Pidgey for BtW, then deposit Bulba and death-warp on Route 6, get poisoned on Route 7 and get the Fresh Water.
I just counted, going from route 7 to the vending machines in Celadon causes 21 poison damage. A level 7 Charmander would have enough health to survive this. Depending on what DVs work with the glitch, we would of course want an HP DV of 0 to 3 in order to have 22 HP and faint as soon as possible. That means getting even-numbered DVs in Attack and Defense would be ideal. The Speed DV will be irrelevant to all battles, since it won't affect any of the five fights in the TAS. Charmander's ideal DVs would look something like E#??, where # is an even number.
Shenanagans wrote:
Surprisingly with a death trainer fly (where you get the encounter in front of a trainer and die to setup the trainer fly) you don't need to fight an additional trainer to get the wild pokemon to appear.
This tactic was used in the old NSC route to get Nidoking before Brock.
Are you sure? I'll test that, very surprising and good news.
Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands
There's but one problem. Remember that Charmander's base Special is only 50 in gen I. :( He would need level 8 for that.
I was thinking that we can catch ourselves a level 4 Pidgey with 17 HP, get to Route 7, get Poisoned and heal with a Potion when necessary. Like after 16 steps for example.
With Brock Through Walls, is it known whether Cooltrainer glitch or item underflow will now be the faster strategy?
I feel like trainer fly would be faster. You can catch a ditto in about 12 minutes or so, but you would need to find a way to glitch to the end of the game via cooltrainer, which to my knowledge requires specific DV's and Trainer ID.
There's but one problem. Remember that Charmander's base Special is only 50 in gen I. :( He would need level 8 for that.
I was thinking that we can catch ourselves a level 4 Pidgey with 17 HP, get to Route 7, get Poisoned and heal with a Potion when necessary. Like after 16 steps for example.
We wouldn't be using charmanders special. With the TAS route we would simply use specific DV's on charmander to activate the glitch. We don't need 16 special, but just DV's that line up with the coordinates of the tile to the right of the Brock skip guy.
Ah yes. Do we know exactly what the DVs need to be?
(before I start a new run with Bulbasaur only to have it discarded halfway through... :P)
I honestly don't know a lot about the programming side of pokemon, but I would assume only very specific DV's would work. Trainer ID might be another option as well.
Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands
Looks like I'll be doing a run with Bulba/Pidgey then. ;P
(currently doing a testrun on the emulator to see how stuff goes)
As for items, I think it is best to buy 2 Poke Balls, a Burn Heal and a Parlyz Heal in Viridian City, get the Antidote and get the Potion next to the Bug Catcher and a Potion from whichever one is faster between the old man and the extra one in Viridian Forest (isn't the secret pick up sound longer? I would have to test that). Finally, we get TM18 and the Fresh Water. Isn't that right?
Edit: nevermind, the Old Man Potion is faster by roughly a second.
Shenanagans is right, the faint Trainer-Fly causes a wild Pokemon appearance without needing a trainer battle. A level 19 Bellsprout knows Poisonpowder, and it will have a Special value of 31 or 32 if its special DV ranges from 0 to 3. Now I just need to figure out those DVs for Charmander.
So, there are two encounters where some DVs must be manipulated to specific values: Charmander's E#??, and level 19 Bellsprout's ???[0-3]. A level 6 Charmander with 48 Attack EV and 14 Attack DV will just barely have 13 attack, which is a relevant difference. I did the math on the EVs, and Charmander's HP DV must be between 0 and 2. So one of Speed or Special could be odd, but not both.
Looks like I'll be doing a run with Bulba/Pidgey then. ;P
(currently doing a testrun on the emulator to see how stuff goes)
As for items, I think it is best to buy 2 Poke Balls, a Burn Heal and a Parlyz Heal in Viridian City, get the Antidote and get the Potion next to the Bug Catcher and a Potion from whichever one is faster between the old man and the extra one in Viridian Forest (isn't the secret pick up sound longer? I would have to test that). Finally, we get TM18 and the Fresh Water. Isn't that right?
Edit: nevermind, the Old Man Potion is faster by roughly a second.
Are you doing abra-less?
Your final items should be
<some> to catch missingno
Item
Item
Item
Water
Xdefend
The 3 fastest items to get are probably antidote, guard spec, and x acc to avoid scrolling in marts as much as possible.
I'm not sure if pidgey survives a sky attack from missingno unless maybe a level 5...so redbar may not be an option. In which case we just need any 4th item since x defends are low in the shop.
Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands
lol, I'm dumb. I was testing the Abra-less route on my Pokemon Red rom. Oddish's Special is 75 so I can't reach the 31-32 Special lol. No matter, the Poison strat will still be faster so it'd be cool to see the endtime with this.
Anyway.
After two X-Defends:
24 Atk (-) MissingNo VS Pidgey 17 HP / 8 Def: 15-18 damage
24 Atk (-) MissingNo VS Pidgey 17 HP / 9 Def: 13-16 damage
26 Atk (+) MissingNo VS Pidgey 17 HP / 8 Def: 17-20 damage
26 Atk (+) MissingNo VS Pidgey 17 HP / 9 Def: 15-18 damage
So there's a chance that a level 4 Pidgey might survive. A level 5 Pidgey has a better chance of course, but then you're required to get it to 17 HP before catching...
However, if I follow my own route, which uses Potions as the 255 item, I can reset until I get a double Water Gun, which deals a measly 3-4 damage per hit. I'm already gonna hate that particulary segment though, haha.
If I went for the X-Defend, then I should get the Potion and Antidote, 2x Poke Balls, TM18 and one extra item.
Edit: nevermind, the Old Man Potion is faster by roughly a second.
What do you mean by Old Man Potion? There's a kid on route 1 who gives the player a potion, but I can't imagine the hidden potion near the Old Man is any faster than the hidden potion in Viridian forest, especially since it might be possible to jingle cancel the one in Viridian after fighting the trainer.
Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands
I never timed the kid on Route 1. All I know is that the Old Man Potion takes 5 seconds to get. Remember, if I want to use Potions as a means to get the 255 item, I need at least two. One to heal Pidgey before reaching the Fresh Water while it's taking Poison damage.
Edit: as for Poke Balls, I would need 2 or 3, depending on the position of the Poke Ball during the MissingNo encounter. =P
Edit: nevermind, the Old Man Potion is faster by roughly a second.
What do you mean by Old Man Potion? There's a kid on route 1 who gives the player a potion, but I can't imagine the hidden potion near the Old Man is any faster than the hidden potion in Viridian forest, especially since it might be possible to jingle cancel the one in Viridian after fighting the trainer.
The fastest potion is the one directly in front of the weedle trainer, followed by the tree potion, followed by the PC potion, the other two are roughly 2 seconds slower.
Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands
Oh man, can you imagine the horror of getting that last sequence right for segmented?
Get a first grass encounter Bellsprout with 31-32 Special (1/4 chance for right DV). Which grass exactly isn't even that important since you can choose the heal moment anyway. Escape on the second turn. Get the items in Celadon -> Deathwarp and fight MissingNo.
Oh, I just realised. You have to get damaged for Potion healing anyway, so scratch Potion as the 255 item, because it wastes a turn. So, double X-Defend, then catch MissingNo on the first ball -> End-warp.
Fun...
Oh man, can you imagine the horror of getting that last sequence right for segmented?
Get a first grass encounter Bellsprout with 31-32 Special (1/4 chance for right DV). Which grass exactly isn't even that important since you can choose the heal moment anyway. Escape on the second turn. Get the items in Celadon -> Deathwarp and fight MissingNo.
Oh, I just realised. You have to get damaged for Potion healing anyway, so scratch Potion as the 255 item, because it wastes a turn. So, double X-Defend, then catch MissingNo on the first ball -> End-warp.
Fun...
Gotta add to that that you need a meowth in front of the trainer And it needs to bite turn 1.
And finally the worst part, even if that all works you need a good ID item otherwise you lose time tossing the roaming TM.
Alternatively name the rival "Z " (that's a capital z followed by a space) and you will get a better item for warping (though I haven't tested it yet)
Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 93
Location: The Netherlands
Maybe the chicken way out, but one could opt to save after death-warping from the Meowth. =P
Actually, thinking purely in terms of segmented, you can easily go all the way from BtW to the Meowth encounter and save until you reach Route 7. It would be annoying, but not too tough.
What item do you use generally to warp? I just pick Ether and toss 16.
Maybe the chicken way out, but one could opt to save after death-warping from the Meowth. =P
Actually, thinking purely in terms of segmented, you can easily go all the way from BtW to the Meowth encounter and save until you reach Route 7. It would be annoying, but not too tough.
What item do you use generally to warp? I just pick Ether and toss 16.
Yeah judging saves would be a struggle cause there is so much yolo in this run lol. I would probably save at Brock through walls (required), and after the death warp. Though this is possible in 1 segment. Just would take tons of attempts lol.
I usually use the trainer ID to warp but I'm gonna start using the rival name item from naming rival "Z " you need to toss 9 iirc.
Joined: 5/9/2007
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So, saving costs about 6 seconds. I reckon I could go from the start of the game until just Route 1 (getting 11 Atk and the required Special for 16 Special later on + a good rival fight is gonna suck though).
Then one save for Route 1 + Route 2 I think. Another one for Viridian Forest + Pidgey (so the BtW one). Then save after death-warp.
So 4 saves sounds ok I guess. Hard but doable. And not so insane that it will take months to get it... <_<
Also, I just finished a testrun on Pokemon Red (so I had to faint in the Dojo...) and got 15 minutes. 14 is probably possible. 13 though? I'm not sure.
So 4 saves sounds ok I guess. Hard but doable. And not so insane that it will take months to get it... <_<
Also, I just finished a testrun on Pokemon Red (so I had to faint in the Dojo...) and got 15 minutes. 14 is probably possible. 13 though? I'm not sure.
4 saves sounds pretty reasonable. 2 would be the full on yolo while 4 will be a fairly safe run.
My TAS estimate was 12 minutes so 14 would be a reasonable segmented run (TAS saves a minute or two because the charmander route.
So 4 saves sounds ok I guess. Hard but doable. And not so insane that it will take months to get it... <_<
Also, I just finished a testrun on Pokemon Red (so I had to faint in the Dojo...) and got 15 minutes. 14 is probably possible. 13 though? I'm not sure.
4 saves sounds pretty reasonable. 2 would be the full on yolo while 4 will be a fairly safe run.
My TAS estimate was 12 minutes so 14 would be a reasonable segmented run (TAS saves a minute or two because the charmander route.
Are you talking about an in-game time of 0:12 or an out-of-game time of 12:xx.xx? Either way, that's a huge improvement, and I'll take your estimate as probably correct.
I'm going to start manually testing different DVs for Charmander to see if they can achieve Brock Through Walls. The DVs in MrWint's test run, 1024, are essentially a worst-case scenario - the attack is far too low but HP is going to be a point too high.
