You read that right. Max score, Desert Bus. ~33 day long TAS.
This is an actual serious submission, now with the new rules apparently making this acceptable.
Rerecord count is just from preparing the intro and doing some research. A majority of the run was automated, using a stripped down environment to quickly generate the input (well, it still took ~1.5 days to generate). The repo for this can be found here: https://github.com/CasualPokePlayer/slimhawk
Also, input ends early here. For the final trip, I skew to the left side of the road enough to ensure once I stop input, the bus will not slow down faster than otherwise. I didn't know exactly where it should stop (outside of a rough guess of 0x181 game distance units), so I set my bot to slowly figure it out with a buffer of 0x400 distance.
Thanks goes to Dacicus for a lua script I referenced when making my C bot. The lua script can be found here: https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/58177909671900143
Now for actual issues with this submission: while this movie was originally intended for 2.8, it requires a dev build to actually play back. Simply be, BizHawk will crash if you load a movie with more than 134217728 frames. This wasn't an explicit limitation, but rather it was due to implementation details with .NET. [1] The issue has been fixed in 2.9 development builds. No sync related changes for gpgx have actually occurred which particularly affect, and there probably will not be when 2.9 is released (as the core isn't particularly active in maintaining). If absolutely needed, I can simply re-run my bot with 2.9's gpgx.
Another fun issue for this TAS was that previously submitting this would crash the site parser. This was due to it reading the ENTIRE input log file at once, UNCOMPRESSED, into a single string. The input log file here is 2.7GB uncompressed (and as a fun bonus, .NET stores strings as UTF16 rather than UTF8, so reading the file into a single string resulted in a 5.4GB sized string!). This easily hit .NET's 2GB limit, and thus crashed and resulted in a "general error." This has been fixed of course (otherwise this submission could not happen :P)
Extra thanks to Samsara for saying Desert Bus is now acceptable and thus making me do this insane thing.
[1] For those interested in gory technical reasons: Internally, BizHawk uses a "List" of strings to store input. Internally, this "List" uses an array of strings, whose size is doubled every time it needs to grow. So when the array has 134217728 strings in it, and it needs to double when another string is added, which results in an array of 268435456 strings. In .NET, a single object cannot be > 2GB in size. And in .NET, a string is a reference type (i.e. "pointer"), which on a 64-bit system is 8 bytes big. 268435456*8=2147483648, 2GB, add some more bytes for size... whoops, too big! The workaround is simple: use a fixed size for the growth of the "List" (16777216 is used in 2.9 dev's fix, which should in practice help not insanely long TASes a tad performance wise as a bonus). And we ended up ditching that due to some other issues and just made it so "very large objects" were allowed, so the List should be able to store at least 4294967295 frames of input.

Samsara: oh no
Samsara: Y'know what? I'm gonna set this to Needs More Info, partially to be unique but also to be entirely accurate. Thing is, the info we need is whether or not we can actually, from a purely technical standpoint, publish a TAS that is over a month long, so I'll get back to y'all when we stop shrieking in fear and figure it out one way or another.
Samsara: I think we've managed to get to a place where we've figured out how we want to publish this.
It's been quite a while since this was submitted and the acceptability of it was discussed, so here's a quick reminder of my thoughts and why those are irrelevant now. My initial thought with this run was simply that it shows superhuman capability through endurance. Human limits make this run nearly impossible in RTA (and actually impossible for a single human): Assuming you have a large group of people and absolutely nothing goes wrong the entire time, which over the course of over a month is a slim possibility, it is theoretically possible, but even in situations where a group of people actively play the game for extended periods of time, plenty of things go wrong. In other words, this is absolutely not a trivial run. The gameplay itself is intentionally trivial, but reaching the score limit in particular has and probably will never be done by human hands. All that being said, since this run was submitted, we repealed the triviality clause and came up with a solid definition for the kinds of things we can accept. Desert Bus clearly fits this criteria, so all of my waxing poetic over surpassing human limits and arguing against triviality is effectively meaningless.
That just left the publication issue, or as I like to call it, several agonizing months of circular conversation that never really got anywhere. Just to put it bluntly: We cannot publish this normally. YouTube will not allow it. I believe the downloadables on Archive are going to be "normal" (although there could definitely be problems with uploading them, because Archive), but there's no way we can come to a sensible conclusion with putting the entire thing on YouTube. Simply put, it would take too much time that we can't spare and too many resources that we can't afford. A conservative estimate was that uploading the full run to YouTube in some way would take nearly two full months from a single Publisher, which is absolutely unreasonable in our collective opinion as staff. It would be shorter if we had multiple Publishers working, but the more hands we tie up with this single run, the less people we have working on the rest of the workbench, and not only do we not have that many Publishers to begin with, but we're in a record-shattering year of submissions that are only going to keep piling up. We can barely afford to have one Publisher tied up on Desert Bus, multiple would be a nightmare. I believe the consensus was to only put the first point on YouTube and link to the downloadables for anyone who really wants to watch the full run. It's possible that, in the future, should we have more time/resources/people to spare, that the other 98 points can also go up, but we're not going to focus on that right now or likely even anytime soon. We have the rest of the site to focus on.
Welp. Time to be the person who literally accepts Desert Bus on TASVideos. E-mail me some Rumple Minze if you want to help me deal with the inevitable fallout. My e-mail address is some letters. What's alcohol poisoning? Good luck.
Spikestuff has already begun the publication process. Also, I've wiped the rerecord count since the run contains 33 days of botted input.
Spikestuff: Well shit.


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Wait is it 12 hours or 128GB or 12 hours and 128GB?
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feos wrote:
OtakuTAS wrote:
Since "anything" is accepted these days is there even a point to the voting system or discussion (aka "vote and discuss") anymore? Seems like game choice and entertainment are no longer considered, so it's just optimization I presume. Not trying to be sassy and it's hard to set tone through a keyboard, so a disclaimer that I'm genuinely curious. I do think this is worthy of acceptance due to the effort put in to making the bot.
We're thinking of changing it to something like submission rating, similar to pub rating, with ratings carrying over to the pub. Then it would be able to mean whatever you want to use it for, technical quality, or entertainment, or both, or something else.
That's interesting. I will say all the changes have made it a much more casual place to be and easier for newbies to get started (and especially published), and the YouTube audience doesn't seem to mind. Sometimes the submission queue gets a little crazy and unpredictable with the homebrew flowing in (some kind of dry), and some games far too easy to really provide any entertainment value, but on the same hand I think it's a good standard to create records for all games just for records' sake and completionists' sake rather than leaving them forcefully unturned, so I do like that change. With some autoscrollers and extremely simple games being submitted though (perhaps not necessarily this one), I do wonder if a bare minimum should be established. It also seems to conflict with rhythm games still(?) not being permitted, even though that's basically where we're at now, if autoscrollers (with no speedups possible, only slowdowns or perhaps even lack thereof) are cool. There's a part of me that misses the older TASVideos style because it felt like whatever you watched was going to be genuinely enjoyable and a publication was a bit harder to get a hold of (but only due to your own choices, i.e. if you were good it was easy), yet the other part is glad for the new changes - especially since at a certain point we're going to run out of licensed games to TAS. I do like to TAS a simple game now and then after grinding on something longer, so I'm glad for the change. There are some people that will just submit very simple runs back to back though and I wonder if at a certain point the YouTube audience will tire and the "pizazz" will be gone. I'm also not sure how the community numbers are doing (tweaked for the new rules and larger amount of submissions), as obviously such a change is also great for activity and frequent publications, so I'm good it's good for that too. I think the old rules were way too strict but not sure if abandoning all judgement of game choice and entertainment is a good thing. Respectfully.
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feos wrote:
Wait is it 12 hours or 128GB or 12 hours and 128GB?
Or. And it goes by the minimum, whichever you hit first. A really grainy 12 hour video that's 1 MB will trigger a rejection, and a 10 second 130GB video will trigger a rejection.
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Spikestuff wrote:
YouTube doesn't allow dead on 12 hours. It's better to go by trips as well so at least each segment is completed.
Yeah. Shoot low unless somebody really wants to experiment with how long they can get away with on a test videos, and then hope it applies to all segments regardless of size etc. It would be a huge pain to split it all to exactly 12 hours and then find out it wants 11 hours and 58 minutes etc., because then you have to adjust video C to pour into video D, video D into video E, etc.
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OtakuTAS wrote:
feos wrote:
Wait is it 12 hours or 128GB or 12 hours and 128GB?
Or. And it goes by the minimum, whichever you hit first. A really grainy 12 hour video that's 1 MB will trigger a rejection, and a 10 second 130GB video will trigger a rejection.
That's an "and" then. It has to be shorter than 12 hours AND smaller than 128GB.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I don't know when that rule came in place but there is a ~55h video of Elden Ring on YT that got released 10 months ago. Of course, its not 33 days, but they're might a way to go over 12 hours? The Elden Ring video in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iTTEpdjWy0
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Who cares that there's a 12 hour limit on videos, just split it up. That's been done before on publications, it wouldn't be the first. (Splitting also likely be inevitable for publishers regardless as you'd need a lot of space to store the entire encode in one sitting, the contents of the video don't mix well with video compression on that note)
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CasualPokePlayer wrote:
Who cares that there's a 12 hour limit on videos, just split it up.
YouTube commenters gonna love that LOL
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FractalFusion wrote:
Something I was curious about. Does this TAS stop as soon as the trip count first reaches 99? It may be better to go one further to show that the trip count no longer increments after 99, similar to how [4769] Uzebox 2048 "maximum score" by p0008874 in 02:17.35 defines max score by overflowing to prove that the max score was reached, as opposed to stopping literally at the maximum possible number (65532). Fun fact: The trip count no longer incrementing after 99 is an intentional troll move by Penn & Teller. I did not realize at the time I first saw the #2211: alden's SegaCD Desert Bus in 41:17:15:05.68 submission, but I realized immediately when I read something in an article similar to the following (if anyone has a more reliable source, feel free to post it):
https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/desert-bus-the-very-worst-video-game-ever-created wrote:
Penn, Teller, and the game’s publisher, Absolute Entertainment, planned a lavish prize for any player that scored a hundred points, a feat that would require eight hundred continuous hours of play: a real-life trip from Tucson to Las Vegas on a desert bus carrying showgirls and a live band.
Read the first twenty words of this quote and you will immediately see why.
Sadly, according to the contest entry form (can be found in the ZIP available here), entering the contest would only have required one point.
Post subject: Podcast clip about Desert Bus contest
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Arcorann wrote:
Sadly, according to the contest entry form (can be found in the ZIP available here), entering the contest would only have required one point.
That's really interesting, thanks for the link. From it I found https://archive.org/details/smokemirrorsmanual and then https://waxy.org/2006/02/penn_tellers_sm/ and finally https://random.waxy.org/audio/Penn_Jillette_Podcast_on_Smoke_and_Mirrors.mp3, which is a podcast clip in which Penn talks about the Desert Bus contest and mentions a score of 100 points, starting at 3:47.
We were planning on giving a very lavish prize for the person that got the highest score. You know, it was the person that got like, it you got like, a hundred, okay. So a hundred—eight hundred hours of playing this. And we were hoping that groups of people, like fraternities and stuff, would play. We had a very lavish prize. It was going to be, you got to go on Desert Bus, from Tucson to Vegas, with, you know, showgirls and a live band, just the most partying bus ever. You got to Vegas, we're going to put you up in the Rio, big thing. And then, you know, big shows, you could go in there.
There's a summary of the podcast interview by Frank Cifaldi at https://web.archive.org/web/20061225183515/http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2006/03/penn_jillette_discusses_unrele.php. But yeah, the actual challenge rules you linked to require only 1 or even 0 points, since a photo is not required for entry:
  1. No purchase necessary. To enter, complete the official entry form and mail it along with a picture of your screen showing one point to: "Penn & Teller's Desert Bus Challenge Entries," P.O. Box 634, Gibbstown, NJ, 08027. The picture is not a requirement for entry. Incomplete or incorrect entries are ineligible. No photocopies, computer generated, or mechanically reproduced entries will be accepted. Sweepstakes begins 6/23/95. All entries must be received by 5/31/96. Not responsible for lost, late, misdirected, damaged, incomplete, altered, illegible, or postage due mail. Entries become the property of the sponsor and will not be returned.
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The YouTube video doesn't need to be split if you stream the thing over 30 days, lol.
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My vague thought is that maybe there should be an upper limit on how long a TAS can be before it's automatically rejected, say 24 hours or so. Theoretically a 33 day long TAS that's pure gameplay could be submitted (like for example, a botted procedurally generated game that has a million unique levels in it) and I don't think either this nor that TAS should be accepted, just because both of them have way too much content for any actual human to reasonably consume. If you are going to go ahead and try to publish this though, good luck!
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Patashu wrote:
My vague thought is that maybe there should be an upper limit on how long a TAS can be before it's automatically rejected, say 24 hours or so.
Cause that worked out well for the Resident Evil 4 community for a much lower time. But also this comment targets against Baten Kaitos' infamous 100% speedrun length of two weeks.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
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Patashu wrote:
My vague thought is that maybe there should be an upper limit on how long a TAS can be before it's automatically rejected
IMO, making a new rule to limit TAS length would be hypocritical after all of the rule changes intended to increase the scope of what's allowed in submissions.
Spikestuff wrote:
Cause that worked out well for the Resident Evil 4 community for a much lower time.
The wording in that changelog makes it seem like runs that were too short would be banned.
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personally i would reject this tas because it can’t be uploaded in one video. EDIT: i would accept a tas that does one journey.
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I think that this TAS is an accomplishment, and even more of an accomplishment would be to publish it. I think that new challenges are what drive us to develop new resources and evolve. On a fun note, this TAS used to be considered as "trivial" in the past, but if we think about it it's actually superhuman because no one possesses the necessary mental and physical capacity to play for 33 days straight. I think it would be tricky to beat it even if multiple people collaborated in a playthrough by taking turns.
coolman wrote:
I don't know when that rule came in place but there is a ~55h video of Elden Ring on YT that got released 10 months ago. Of course, its not 33 days, but they're might a way to go over 12 hours? The Elden Ring video in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iTTEpdjWy0
Right, I also stumbled with some videos that are more than 12 hours long, so this definitely needs to be investigated.
OtakuTAS wrote:
CasualPokePlayer wrote:
Who cares that there's a 12 hour limit on videos, just split it up.
YouTube commenters gonna love that LOL
We can upload the first piece normally, and keeping the remaining 66 videos unlisted in order to avoid clogging the subscription feed. And then create a playlist that allows to find and browse them.
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I'm about to say a few slightly controversial things but I promise it's in good nature, heh. Controversial thing #1: We should publish this TAS. Ok, so on the face of it, that's not so controversial as there does appear to be at least some understanding that there's some value here. Still, it's not exactly without debate, so I'll still claim it as controversial... :) Controversial thing #2: We should not create a full length video encode of this TAS, instead using labeling as we have in the past to identify that the run has been truncated, opting to show the beginning and end and possibly notable sections in the middle, pointing back to the publication page to watch the movie file in the emulator instead. Basically, I'm saying "Why not both?" [insert shrug] - we're having some pretty hilarious conversations trying to either justify having a 33 day video or conversely not have a 33 day video when the reality is anyone who wants to watch 33 days of the same thing probably has enough time to set up the emulator. The videos are useful and are a key artifact as they lower the barrier for watching TAS's but in this case there's nothing different here that can't be seen in Desert Bus for Hope events outside the final screens. An encode that includes those and properly labels what the actual length is would accomplish all the things we actually need even if it breaks from tradition.
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Only including the first 6 hours and the last 6 hours in an interesting idea for youtube. At least for a regular embed. Then there could be a playlist with unlisted videos of the whole thing, and we'd link to it in the description. Or we could upload the first 12 hours, and still make a playlist of unlisted encodes of the whole thing and link to that playlist, and the first 12-hour encode would be the one embedded in the publication. As for the SD encode, there's also a question of who would ever consider downloading it, and its only purpose would be an archive record that "yeah this is real" that may never be actually useful. Though I don't particularly mind having them split and only embedding the first one in the publication, and linking the whole item in the description. Making a singular SD encode feels questionable.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
Or we could upload the first 12 hours, and still make a playlist of unlisted encodes of the rest of it and link to that playlist, and the first 12-hour encode would be the one embedded in the publication
This is the idea I've been thinking of the whole time. The first part of the encode is the one that's visible on the YouTube page and that video will link to a playlist where the rest of the unlisted parts are. As for an SD encode, I didn't think about that. Making a single encode file cannot be easily done by multiple people, unlike with the HD encode.
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My point is we'll need to add the playlist link right to the publication text, because otherwise the link won't persist in the video description, and we can't add playlists to publications on the new site (and I don't know if we want to).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Personally, I'm in favour of having the first trip (8-ish hours) public on YouTube, with the remaining 99 trips being unlisted, and have everything in a playlist. I guess it could be done the same for the downloadable as well.
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The less files that have to be uploaded to YouTube, the better. I'd rather have 67 parts instead of 99.
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I feel splitting them by "level" has value, because it allows to watch them individually based on what you're looking for (if there's ever been anything to look for). Unless there's literally no change other than the counter.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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If that's the case and if we're gonna be dumping with savestates, I hope CasualPokePlayer knows exactly where to have his bot generate those savestates. The ~12 hour video idea to me felt easier to implement because savestates would only have to be generated every 2590000 frames.
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feos wrote:
Unless there's literally no change other than the counter.
IIRC from streaming a 99-point "run" on Twitch some years ago, there's also a day-night cycle. Can't give you details, because I didn't watch the entire thing myself at the time, but I'm hoping it loops after 24 hours.
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