1 2
6 7 8
Joined: 5/14/2007
Posts: 525
Location: Pisces-Cetus filament
Dashjump wrote:
Anyway, I'm here to post more vbms of the TASes I've done over the past few days: Chaos Angel 1 ring attack (video) Chaos Angel 2 ring attack (video) Toy Kingdom 3 ring attack (video) Ocean Base 2 0:45.60 (video)
Great runs! I loved the last one, but those ring attacks are really enjoyable as well. Are all three done on easy mode? :(
AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3 xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D Help improving TASVideos!
Dashjump
He/Him
Experienced player (578)
Joined: 8/18/2012
Posts: 82
Only CA2 was done in Easy mode (inadvertently, and I thought the armadillo badniks didn't spawn because they commited suicide before i reach them...) I used the 100% completed save game snapshot from gamefaqs which was unfortunately already in Easy mode. Unrelated note, some of the badniks behave quite weirdly... in the TK3 ring attack at around 1:36~1:38 (in-game time) it would be faster to grab the 3 floating rings by wall-jumping off the left wall, but doing so would immediately make the 3 soldier enemies (located just to the right) disappear. I had to grab those 3 rings in that manner seen in the video. If anyone cares about this phenomenon to want to see it in action, you can load the movie in VBA and stop it right before reaching the moving block, and try it out yourself, lol.
Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 752
Very nice Dashjump. I had expected Qwertys run on OB2 to be beatable after your work on the any% showed so many optimizations, but damn, not by 6+ seconds. Fantastic work. Also interesting stuff in the Ring Attacks. Especially nice to see different teams in levels from your TK3.
Dashjump
He/Him
Experienced player (578)
Joined: 8/18/2012
Posts: 82
Kirbymastah told me about a shortcut/glitch in Chaos Angel 2 that could save 2-3 seconds, and I didn't do it in the any% TAS... now in addition to that, I've also found out that Knuckles/Amy are a lot faster than Sonic/Cream in Chaos Angel 1. ;_; Guess that means I'm gonna have to redo the any% someday... Link to video EDIT: oh look, there IS a faster team than Sonic/Cream in CA2 after all. Amy/Sonic wins out by a few seconds: Link to video I guess this makes Cream useless in the any% run.
WST
She/Her
Active player (489)
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Wow, that was lovely :) Good job on improving yourself ^^ I guess this kind of game is way too complex to be sure that your TASes are not improveable, so, do not worry ^^
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Dashjump
He/Him
Experienced player (578)
Joined: 8/18/2012
Posts: 82
(Sorry for spamming this thread with all my video links and whatnot, but I can't find a better place to post these...) Look like I will definitely be redoing the any% TAS. The only thing stopping me really is the Sunset Hill boss and its condemnable RNG, but the rest of the run wouldn't be much of a problem (I really love TASing this game). Of course this time, I will do my best to make sure everything is optimised to the highest possible degree so I won't have to ever redo it and go through the zone 2 boss again. (34.15 seconds in the any% TAS was pretty godlike, and I wonder if I can get lucky with that again... of course I can just leave that run as it is, but I'll have to keep the old SH1 and SH2 timings to avoid changing any variables) My decision to redo it came from the two improvements in CA1 and CA2 with completely different teams, and was finally set in stone by a completely different route in R991 that saved more than 30 frames. Here's the video of the time saver (and guess what, it wasn't even optimised properly, I was just trying out the route without bothering to perfect it). Link to video
Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 752
How do you go about manipulating Boss RNG in this? I've just been messing around for the last day or so with the Toy Kingdom boss for fun and just cant manipulate a Jack in the Box on the last hit it is available. Considering the pain it is for me to manipulate such a static boss, Sunset Hill and its damn near pinball-ish mechanics sounds hell. Nice to hear another any% is on the way as I always love seeing some new stuff from Advance3... but man, hard on your self considering how soon after your first any% got submitted you found the improvements. Grats on the 3 big route finds course. Do wonder now that Cream was no longer needed was wondering if CT3 has a different team choice too now?
Dashjump
He/Him
Experienced player (578)
Joined: 8/18/2012
Posts: 82
The TK boss has pretty dumb RNG, hitting it on the same frame can still produce different results depending on what you were doing before you hit him. That's why you'll notice that I keep jumping around randomly and intentionally take damage. As far as I know there isn't any method to manipulate specifically what comes out of the box... If it makes sense, this is (roughly) what I do to manipulate the attacks:
Eg. the boss is first vulnerable at frame #528. 
1) I create a savestate a few seconds in advance (let's call it savestate 1)
2) I go on to hit the boss at frame #528.
3) If it gives a jack in the box, move on to next hit
4) If not, I load back savestate 1 and start doing other things, like jumping to the other side of the boss and dumping Sonic into the abyss, then go back to hit the boss at frame #528.
5) It gets much harder to manipulate a jack in the box for hit #7, hence I need to create savestates from the moment I deal hit #6, then repeat step 4.
I managed to get the Sunset Hill boss to sync with the exact same input from my any% run, EXCEPT I somehow regained control 28 frames earlier and finished with a time of 33.86 seconds -_- it's almost funny how stupid the RNG works in this game. I've been stuck at Toy Kingdom 2 for the past few days or so. I managed to sneak past the early moving block at the 8-10sec mark in the any% TAS, and saved well over 150 frames before getting stopped by the final block in the path. If I could somehow save 3 or 4 more frames I most likely would be able to get past the block; but I've tried the best I could to squeeze out some frames and failed terribly. That would mean I would have to make do with a small improvement of <30 frames or so... Edit: it's done, saved about 3 seconds with a completely different route. About CT3, I know that Kirby used Knuckles+Tails for the stage to pass through a certain part without needing to fly, but I feel that it doesn't make up for the two areas where Sonic can get boost mode (the beginning, and the part with the speed shoes). Either way, Tails definitely has to be the partner, a +Sonic team probably doesn't have as much potential in that stage. Anyway, here are the timings of the new WIP:
Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 84
Dashjump wrote:
About CT3, I know that Kirby used Knuckles+Tails for the stage to pass through a certain part without needing to fly, but I feel that it doesn't make up for the two areas where Sonic can get boost mode (the beginning, and the part with the speed shoes). Either way, Tails definitely has to be the partner, a +Sonic team probably doesn't have as much potential in that stage.
I never really timed it, but i'm sure S+T is faster than K+T. Main reason I use K+T is not only just avoiding to fly, but also because it's safer if I fail to squeeze past those spikes after the speed shoes. It's also safer to get into the next ball machine after that IMO. But IDK, who knows :P also rofl sunset hill boss... -___-'' EDIT: This is a really really really long shot of being worth it, but how would A+T work out for CT3? Would there be a few spots where her midair jump would help save time? There aren't many springs to take advantage of, unfortunately. I also sorta wonder if the ball machines function differently since Amy can't roll at will (probably not) I'm 99.9999% sure this is not worth it, especially cuz A+T can't spindash, but... wejlafkwejfklwjfklae? For C+T on CT3 (ha ha...), I don't think that would be worth over boost mode. The only use for this would be being able to grab the speed shoes with Cheese. I think it'd have a chance of being faster than S+T if Cream could fly like normal, but she gets a dumb umbrella :(
Dashjump
He/Him
Experienced player (578)
Joined: 8/18/2012
Posts: 82
Well I can pretty much rule out any team that can't spindash, because the spindash is way too important for acceleration compared to that stupid Amy hop, lol. Edit: I actually tested out Amy+Tails, and found out that her running/jumping speed caps at 1920, unless she hits a booster or jumps off a slope, in which the running/jumping speed caps at 2432/2560 respectively. Jumping off another slope at that speed will give her an even higher speed until the moment she lands. Compare this to any other character which can spindash, they immediately get 2432/2560 after a 2-rev spindash. I made a video here showing the lua script with the speed values just for reference: Link to video Yeah I kinda wonder what the hell the developers were thinking when giving Cream that useless umbrella.. -_- It might have a use if Cream can go faster on that umbrella, effectively making it a Knuckles glide, but her speed caps at a ridiculously low 255, as seen in the video.
Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 752
Dashjump wrote:
The TK boss has pretty dumb RNG.../quote] Yeah, I figured that was the idea. Guess I'm just getting unlucky with my RNG then; but thanks for the breakdown, much appreciated.
Dashjump wrote:
Anyway, here are the timings of the new WIP:
Damn, you're on fire! Improvements on every (non Boss) stage I was hopeful for... but not to that extent!
CatBagSpam wrote:
For C+T on CT3 (ha ha...) dumb umbrella :(
I mean it's a moot point as you unlock Cream there... but, would C+T be better for collecting Chao? Not alot of Boosting in the Hundro. Suggesting a Cream/Tails team... I have to have had too much to drink...
Dashjump
He/Him
Experienced player (578)
Joined: 8/18/2012
Posts: 82
Can Cream use her chao attack to collect those chao? I honestly don't know much about alternative teams other than the usual few combos, but anyways I don't think I"ll be redoing the 100% so it probably doesn't matter to me... Sorry guys, won't be uploading any WIPs for this run, since it's almost about done anyway (at Twinkle Snow 2 as of now).
Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 752
Just posting this here for future reference. A wip from dashjump of an update of his '100%' run consisting of the start of the game till the end of all 3 acts of the first zone. Link to video Saves over 5 seconds of ingame time over the current published run iirc my math correctly. Hope I'm not stepping on his toes posting this. But his usual pace is producing a high quality hour long TAS and only taking a weekend or two, so as it's been a few months I'm assuming this is on indefinite hiatus. Wouldn't want this being lost to time. (Hope all is well with you Dashjump!)
Dashjump
He/Him
Experienced player (578)
Joined: 8/18/2012
Posts: 82
Hello Paused! (and Kirby if you're reading this, I don't think anyone else bothers to check this thread :P) Rest assured this project is ongoing. My schedule has been really busy lately and I only have 3-4 hours of TASing time each week :( I've been watching back my old 100% run and already can intuitively point out which parts can be improved greatly, after gaining experience doing two any% runs after the first 100%. I really want to optimise this run to near-perfection, so it probably won't be a 2-3 week affair any more. I'll definitely be uploading some WIPs, so stay tuned! UPDATE: I'm currently at the zone 2 boss (how many times must I play this horrible RNG game?), once again trying to optimise it hopefully with a timing better than my current any% run.
Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 752
Ah! Great to hear from you dashjump, and especially with that news. Glad that the project is still going strong; my bad for assuming the worst on it. Clearly you've spoiled me on your timetables with your past submissions! Nice to hear you're aiming for the best you can make it too. Please don't make my pestering compromise on that at all! Easy to wait as long as it takes if that's the reason. But regardless, super to hear updates are on the way; regardless if they will be WIPs or just updates. Obviously this isn't Super Mario 64 but I know a bunch of people outside the TAS community are looking forward to the result. And as you mention Kirby I cant recall if he actually checks the TAS forums as standard; but we always natter on your stuff when we see each other on twitch; so I'll say hi for ya! Though that reminds me; have you seen that video kirby did of all teams running through SH2? A (minor) glitch in the K/S and A/S runs (anyone/sonic really) of a enter walls glitch. Doesn't seem super useful, but just thought it was worth mentioning.
Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 752
Just an update on Dashjumps revisit to his Good ending run; this time, the 3 Sunsethill acts. Link to video About 3 to 4 seconds saved on this zone if my half arsed calculations are correct. Personally hoping that being posted means he's done with the rng manip nightmare that is Sunset hills boss!
Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 752
Kirbymastah has found an out of bounds strat in Twinkle Snow 2 that saves a significant amount of time (that will also effect 100%) and Dashjump has done an IL TAS of it here; Link to video (Any chance of seeing the .vbm when you have a sec DJ please?) Saves 21.55 in game seconds over his currently published any% TAS. (24.33 against 45.88.) There would be real time complications due to the need to switch teams back and forth to using Amy, but that is ignored for the most part. A basic, far from optimised demonstration of the 100% route can been seen on one of Kirbys videos here. I'm guessing this potentially can blow the game wide open now, depending on how many 'path swappers' can be found, and skipped. (edit; messed the time comparisons up, was comparing against act3)
Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 84
I think a big part of it is the fact that certain springs send you flying even without amy's hammer. That particular spring in twinkle snow 2 happens to be below some path swappers, so I guess they're not triggered properly if you're off screen? There's a similar spring in the bottom-right corner of ocean base 2, and 2 of those springs in chaos angel 1 as well. I haven't gotten anything to work with them though. If there's a way to visually see where path swappers are though, that would be a massive help... Also my console route isn't entirely applicable to the TAS since it focuses purely for RTA (the TAS optimizes IGT per stage) P I imagine the TAS would swap to A+S just for twinkle snow 2 since T+S is faster for the other TS acts anyways.
Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 752
Version differences are now a thing too. Again found by Kirby. And in true Twitch streamer fashion he has a pastebin to explain all, found here. Long story short; NTSC does not use the updated Ring count mechanics introduced in Advanced 2 while EU/JAP does. And those mechanics just make even the one ring faster so this is kinda huge. There are a handful of other differences (One that makes a few bosses faster in NTSC even) but... kinda feels like the current runs are done on the Beta version of the game.
Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 84
Was testing out best ending requirements for the advance series, and I realized that in sonic advance 2, unlocking tiny chao garden is on a different flag from completion of the game with a character. I assumed this would be the case for sonic advance 3, and took a look. Resetting during credits does NOT register as beating Altar Emerald. However, the moment you see eggman's "Collect the Chaos Emeralds!" cutscene is when that flag is set (this is also the case in sonic advance 2; in order to access true area 53, you must have seen this post-credits cutscene at least once). So we don't need to actually unlock sound test nor boss time attack at all in order to access Nonaggression. This was an oversight on basically everyone's part; I think we all (understandably) assumed that the sound test and boss attack modes all were the same flag as completing altar emerald, but that wasn't the case.
Dashjump
He/Him
Experienced player (578)
Joined: 8/18/2012
Posts: 82
Well, it's been a long time folks, and I'm sorry that I haven't finished up everything yet! TASing just isn't a priority for me anymore with so many rl commitments. I've recently upgraded my computer and am continuing my 100% TAS with not much progress so far. Spent way too much time on Ocean Base 2, because I added a death reset on the first chao and didn't realise that dying resets the key layout, throwing a wrench into the entire level and I had to redo it again due to syncing issues with rings. Speaking of which, ring acceleration seems to be present in the (U) version, albeit it's really really minor (that was what caused the desync on the 2nd run of OB2, due to my partner picking up more rings and screwing my speed/subpixels). I haven't tested the other versions (J and EU) though, but whatever, I really don't feel like redoing the whole thing again on a different game. I'm hoping the final product can be submitted by the end of the month, until then let's hope RNG doesn't mess with me and make my job more difficult.
Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 752
Hey, no need to apologise; Real life always comes first. Probably a wise choice on the version differences font; was somewhat concerned that the discovery would put you off. Good to hear personally that NTSC is effected by ring count too; checking back I hadn't posted it here, but think I mentioned to kirby at some point that it may have an effect at some level. Wow; wasn't not expecting for you to end that post saying you're hoping for a submission so soon! Yeah, not like it needs to be said; but fingers crossed on the RNG front... at least Sunset Hill boss remains behind you. Thanks for the update as well DJ.
Dashjump
He/Him
Experienced player (578)
Joined: 8/18/2012
Posts: 82
Welp, it's done way earlier than I expected :P Final frame savings total up to around 125 seconds (2 mins!!) of improvement. I haven't calculated the in-game time savings of all the individual levels combined though. Can't believe how terrible my previous run was, and I hope I don't ever have to redo this again... The biggest time cut probably came from Chaos Angel, because I saved a reset by using K+A for both CA1 and CA2, and they were way faster in both stages than S+C, saving 6 and 11 seconds respectively. Some other overworld optimisations as well, in Zone 5 and 6 I complete a level then grab the map chao and reset, instead of grabbing the chao first. This saves a lot of time by skipping the chao dialogue. Currently HD encoding the video and typing out submission text... stay tuned!
Editor, Experienced player (586)
Joined: 10/22/2016
Posts: 581
Location: Argentina
I can't wait to see you TAS, are you considering on doing a complete ring attack in Sonic advance 1/2/3? It will be funny to see exploiting character physics in a max rings run in this games
You can see more TASes on my youtube channel
Dashjump
He/Him
Experienced player (578)
Joined: 8/18/2012
Posts: 82
I'll probably just TAS ring attacks individually and upload to Youtube without submitting them here (if I have time, haha :P)
1 2
6 7 8