Necessary... unnecessary... This is all worthless talk. My puzzle asks for a mate in 4 moves even if black don't want this. Rf5 is the only move to reach this goal, so it's pretty clear. I don't thought that such a small puzzle will make so much unclearness.
Nice puzzle of Deviance, sadly I couldn't search for a solution since I was to late and accidentaly readed Tafatt's solution for it already.
If someone is interested I could post another study (or like you call it "puzzle") of me tomorrow. In this one the curiouse thing is that white has only the King a Bishop and a Knight against all 16 standard pieces of black, and white can still win :-) (you have to find the winning line). I just fear that it will bring much more unclearness than the first puzzle since it's more complicated.
Many times in chess annotations you see the comment "This is the only move." Does the annotator really mean that this is the only legal move? Of course not. He is saying this is the only winning move, but this is all implied. It is unlikely that anyone will complain that he was overgeneralizing.
Similarly, when it is said in the solution of a puzzle that it is necessary to sacrifice the rook to give legal moves, it is implied that this is the only winning move that does so. Any other working lines are usually given on the side. All other moves are not referred to both directly and indirectly.
That being said let's move on to some more puzzles. I'd rather fight on the board than off it.
But you didn't say something equivalent to "This is the only move." You gave a reason. An incorrect one. If you had simply said, "Sacrificing the rook is necessary," then we wouldn't be having this conversation. You said, "Sacrificing the rook is necessary to give black a legal move," which is false.
I think I know where our differences are coming from. I was emphasizing the first part of the sentence, while you emphasized the last part. I meant "Sacrificing the rook is necessary to give black a legal move" (as opposed to sacrificing something else or moving another piece).
This case is similar to these two statements: "The rook must be sacrificed to give legal moves" and "it is the rook that must be sacrificed to give legal moves." In this sense, the statement is true. I suppose it is harder to tell when it is typed rather than said.
Here's a small twist I did on the Nunn puzzle: A game starts with c4 and ends with NxB# on the fifth move. Recreate the game.
Edit: I've found two solutions to my puzzle already, one for white and black. This seems a lot easier than solving for NxR#.
Joined: 3/29/2005
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Location: The boonies.
samurai goroh wrote:
Tafatt wrote:
The solution for the other problem is 1.Qb3
1...axb3 2.Kf5 b2 3.g4#
If the black king tries to flee the queen can go to g8 and mate him.
What if:
1. Qb3 Kg6 , does 2. is Qg8+ is next? if so, what if black decides to play 2. ... Kh5
Can white still mate in 3?
Edited: Hehe, yep it can, didn't saw it... 3. g4#
You can get it in four by moving the pawn first. Actually, you can still get it in three if black takes the pawn when you check with it, but you can't force him to do that and it takes four to get it any other way.
I hope I'm right:
1. Rb4! Qc8 (taking the rook will lose to Nc6+ with winning the queen
2. Rb8! Qh3 (Taking is impossible again)
3. Rh8! Nh4
4. Rxh4 and now the queen has no escaping square without beeing attacked by the Knight together with check.
I remember I saw a almost the same puzzle composed from a guy called Troitzki of something like that. And the winning line is similar. Thats why I could see it that fast.
OK, as promised here we go with the next study of me made in 06.12.2002:
White moves and makes a forced mate in 13
(You have to find the correct winning line, the mate in 13 will be reached by itself then)
Note that black will play instantly Rd7 no matter if you capture the rook or not, following with Bd8 and releasing the rook with Re7 (or if you capture him with c6 and releasing the knight) and slowly all other pieces, so you don't have much time to win with white here.
I think Deviance is the only one who could theoretical solve this one without help of chess-programms. I gave this position to a 2100 Elo chessplayer I know and it took him almost 1 hour to find everything correctly, so good luck to those who are still dare to try it by themself.
black will free the rook, so it will distract white's plan a bit. My instinct tells me: the knight needs to be on f5, bishop on a1-h8, and that both the black rook and bishop need to be captured. Taking the rook of course allows c6 by black which means he frees his knight as well. The rook, bishop, knight, and queen on the top right of the board are dead pieces, so pretend they aren't there and don't let them intimidate you. :P
I'm pretty sure the first move is something like Nc2, I'll try solving this now.
1. Nc2 Rd7
Nb3 eyes the f5 square but it does not lead to mate due to complications of having the knight move through d4.
2. Ne3 Bd8 3. cxd7
Else the black rook will be free.
3... c6 4. Ke4 cxd5+ 5. Kd4! f5
[5. Kxd5?? Nc7+ 6. Kxd6 Re8! -/+]
6. Nxf5+ Kf67. Kxd5 Nc7+8. Kxd6 Nxb5+
delays mate.
9. axb5 Bc7+10. Kd5! Be5
[if the bishop is taken with 10. Kxc7??, then 10... Ke6 -/+]
11. Ba3 Bd612. Bb2+ Be5
[12. Bxd6 also wins.]
13. Bxe5#
The rook, bishop, knight, and queen on the top right of the board are dead pieces, so pretend they aren't there and don't let them intimidate you. :P
Wrong. After c6 black releases the knight on e8, following by the rook on f8, knight h7-f8, bishop g8-h7 with possible check and finaly the queen on h8. So this pieces are not dead, it only needs some time to release them.
Your solution is right. I wonder if you really did this all by yourself. A side question: What is your current Elo (playing strenght) Deviance?
Wrong. After c6 black releases the knight on e8, following by the rook on f8, knight h7-f8, bishop g8-h7 with possible check and finaly the queen on h8. So this pieces are not dead, it only needs some time to release them.
I was talking about the pieces on the top right of the board, meaning f8, g8, h8, and h7. I already mentioned that the knight gets free from c6 and that the rook escapes. This was all my guess before I did the puzzle so I didn't know for sure. I'm still going to call the queen "dead" though, because she has no time to free herself to terrorize white. :P
A side question: What is your current Elo (playing strenght) Deviance?
At a local club I play, I have an elo of around 2200, but this includes blitz games as well. My slow play rating is not as high because I haven't been in too many tournaments lately. Overall, I would estimate that I am very slightly over 2000. There's a FIDE tournament here in July, so hopefully by then I'll have an international rating.
Puzzle #3
White to Play and Draw.
Here's a puzzle where white is in quite a bit of trouble. Put this in a chess program it will probably tell you that black has a win, but with proper technique white can draw here. Like the last puzzle, this one is difficult, and the solution is at least around a dozen moves.
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Ah, the endgame. My specialty. This's pretty simple, actually.
1. Kf6
There are two legal moves for black at this point, neither one seeming very good for White, but I'll go ahead and give you the follow-through of both venues, just to prove that this is, indeed, the only drawing move for White.
1.... Kxh7 (This is, in fact, the stronger move, as we'll see in a minute.)
2. Kf5 Kg7
3. Ke4
At this point, white has already acheived stalemate, it's simply a matter of time. 3... h5 leads to 4. gxh5 Kh6 5. Kf3, which is a stalemate position, and any other move lets White post his king next to the pawn, which is stalemate even if black marches him down the board because black can't reach the pawns on the left in time enough to hold White's king off from them. Any other venue for black eventually results in either h5 or accepting a draw from the 3rd incident of a board position.
1.... h5
2. Kf5
This is once again stalemate, and taking the pawn is, in fact, a mistake, because Black can run the other pawn and promote before the king can catch it. From this position, however, Black doesn't have any good moves. If he takes the pawn, White can take both pawns in response. If he tries to run the further pawn, white can run around the other two pawns and catch it before it can promote. The kings then reach the two remaining pawns in a more-or-less stalemate position. If he simply takes the pawn in the corner, white captures with his pawn and takes the other with his king.
You gave a good analysis, but there is a problem with the line. It is true that h5 is bad response for black, so we'll assume he does play Kxh7 (which you correctly identified as black's better response) and continue from 3. Ke4:
3... Kg6 4. Kf3 h5 5. gxh5+ Kxh5 6. Kg3 g4 7.Kg2 Kg5 8. Kg3 Kf5 9. Kg2 Ke4 10. Kg3 Kd4
Black is going to capture the h2 pawn, but white is too busy with the black g-pawn to be able to stop him.
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
You mean a2 pawn. And I know I analyzed the line you're talking about, but I can't remember why I decided what you're describing doesn't work for Black. I'll have to break out my chessboard again, 'cause I can't look at the 2d version and really see the moves.
Oh, and thank you for not pointing out the glaring error in my analysis of the 1... h5 line. That was me being braindead.
So if I can't find a way for white to stop black from heading him off at the pawns, where's my error? At 1. Kf6 or 3. Ke4?
yeah, my bad, I meant a2 instead of h2. The error is on the move Kf6, white can't recover after that, so try experimenting with other starting variations.
That's a very nice pawn ending, Deviance! I like when counterintuitive moves are successful in situations with very few pieces. It shows how complicated and beautiful chess can be sometimes.
1. Ke6
If 1...Kxh7, 2. Kf6 and white simply takes the kingside pawns, leading to a draw where white is the one with the extra pawn!
1...Kg7 2. Kf5 Kxh7 3. Kf6 transposes to the above. If 2...Kh8 3. Kg6 stalemates black's king, leading to 3...h5 4. Kx(either pawn) with a draw.
The tricky line is 1... h5.
2. gxh5 Kxh7 3. Kf5 Kh6 4. Kg4, and again, it's white who's a pawn ahead, but black draws.
2. gxh5 Kg7 3. Kf5 is essentially the same as 2...Kxh7
2. gxh5 g4 3. Kf5 g3 4. Kg6 g2 5. Kh6
Now, black must promote his pawn. Rook and queen promotions are stalemate, so he must promote to a bishop or knight.
5... g1=N 6. Kg6 Ne2 7. Kf5 Nc3 8. Ke5
Now, black can either take the pawn on a2, or he can try to set up a "fortress" with the knight on b1 guarding the pawn on a3 while he slowly brings his king to the queenside.
8...Kxh7 9. Kd4 Nb1 10. Kd3 Kh6 11. Kc2= (the knight is trapped)
8...Nxa2 9. Kd4 Nb4 10. Kc3 a2 11. Kb2 with a well-known theoretical draw (black cannot stop the white king from shuffling back and forth between b2 and a1)
5... g1=B Now, black will have to win white's a2 pawn in order to win the game. It is on a light square, so the black king must try to take it. Thus, the black king must reach b2 or b1.
6. Kg5 Kxh7 7. Kf5 Kh6 8. Ke4 Kxh5 9. Kd3 Kg4 10. Kc2 Kf3 11. Kb1 Bd4 (trying to keep the white king out of the corner, where it will be stalemated) 12. Kc2 Ke2 13. Kb1
And white will be stalemated anyway if black ever plays Kd2.
By the way, you are right: I just let Fritz take a look at this position, and it thinks black is winning for a long time. In fact, even if you play the moves out, it still thinks black is winning after the bishop promotion (but it sees that the knight promotion is a draw). It gives a score of about +3 for black.
White to Play and Win
the solution to this one looks good.
White moves and makes a forced mate in 13
(You have to find the correct winning line, the mate in 13 will be reached by itself then)
Note that black will play instantly Rd7 no matter if you capture the rook or not, following with Bd8 and releasing the rook with Re7 (or if you capture him with c6 and releasing the knight) and slowly all other pieces, so you don't have much time to win with white here.
I think Deviance is the only one who could theoretical solve this one without help of chess-programms. I gave this position to a 2100 Elo chessplayer I know and it took him almost 1 hour to find everything correctly, so good luck to those who are still dare to try it by themself.
White to Play and Draw.
Here's a puzzle where white is in quite a bit of trouble. Put this in a chess program it will probably tell you that black has a win, but with proper technique white can draw here. Like the last puzzle, this one is difficult, and the solution is at least around a dozen moves.
